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venkelos

Vehicles in Only War

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How are vehicles applied in Only War? The Imperial Guard is a vast fighting force, but this game is more likely to be your group's singular exploits among them, many of which might have changed the course of a conflict, resulting in heroes. So, on their scale, I could see how a Baneblade, or a Leman Russ might seem irrelevant (the Operator could pilot it, but they have no Carry Cap, which means that the other PCs would either have to be the dedicated crew, in a scenario where they stay in the tank, or thy would have to leave it, and do so unmanned, ripe for theft. But if I think on Valkyries and Chimeras, does the GM just say "you have one", or "none are available", and that's it, or do you have to Requisition one, like other gear, when their entries lack a cost/rarity? Not sure if every use of one is more a "we drove you in, dropped you off, and left you to do what you do", rather than the group having the transport on hand, for said mission, to use as they need. I know Operators do other stuff, but I often see them as Sentinel or transport drivers, and don't know how they, or their Sergeant, or the Tech-Priest, get them their vehicle, when it is appropriate. Maybe they left it out for Hammer, or maybe I just missed it, but I thought I'd inquire. Thanks.

I did search the forums, first, but many things were older than I care to read, before this book had really even taken shape.

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The Squad can have vehicles through their Regiment type. Otherwise, I don't think that they can get a vehicle. If they have it from their Regiment type, then I guess vehicles are like Comrades: if the Squad loses its vehicle, then it will be automatically replaced in the next base. But yeah, vehicles are OP, so use of restrictions are advised!

 

Oh, and as a side note, in our group, we always had an Operator, though none of our parties were mechanized in any way. Operators are excellent technicians and have a better "team comfort" value than Tech-Priests. They are just as good (if not better) for things like Tech-Use, Security and Trade (Armourer), so any Squad can make use of an Operator. It can even replace the Sergeant as a squad leader (the Sergeant is a 'meh' class anyways). 

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Personally I do wish that they'd have Valkaries in the book for use of alternate methods of handling missions.  While it's great to work with a "drop you off and fly away" kind of setting, at the same time it'd be useful should the party have to do a rescue mission of vital individuals and are caught in the middle of a air-battle forcing them to man weaponry onboard said Valkarie.  I don't know about anybody else but I'd love to be in that kind of situation.  Then again, who knows we might just get lucky with the upcomming Hammer of the Emperor book.

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Yeah, like I said, I can see how some of the vehicles might be a bit "unnecessary", with them having a bit more of a background place, around the players (LRs and Basilisks do their stuff elsewhere, while you do your stuff), rather than doing the same stuff, but I had strong hopes of the Chimera and Valkyrie finally getting statted, especially with the Elysians, one of my favorite other Regiments, NOT getting ignored. Seeing them, and knowing of their frequent air deployments, I was happy to finally get Valkyrie stats. Oh well, I made my own for RT forums, and they could work, if I need them, and I'll continue to hope for Hammer to manage it.

I found the info on vehicles via Reg type; kinda feel dense for having not seen it before. Since Cadians are my overall favorites, it makes me very pleased that they are Mechanised Infantry, and get the Chimera for squad, if needed.

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Just a couple of things:

1. There's no Valk in the rules, but there are no air-craft rules in the core rulebook, so it's not as if it was forgotten, there just aren't any rules for it yet. If/when they show up, I have no idea.
2. Cadians aren't mechanised. The example given of a Cadian regiment just happens to be mechanised, but that doesn't mean that all Cadians are or need to be mechaniused. You can do a mechanised Catachan regiment or Tallarn regiment if you want - or just make up your own regiment. All those stated-out regements are in that section are broad examples. So don't feel you need to stick to it.

And as to the comment of "vehicles are OP", that seems a bit dismissive. What were you fighting whilst mounted in your vehicle? Surely your GM amended the adversaries you were facing to make them appropriate for a squad crewing a vehicle, no?

BYE

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H.B.M.C. said:

And as to the comment of "vehicles are OP", that seems a bit dismissive. What were you fighting whilst mounted in your vehicle? Surely your GM amended the adversaries you were facing to make them appropriate for a squad crewing a vehicle, no?

 

1 Leman Russ against 5 Lascannons (3 infantry mounted and 2 Sentinel mounted). The result: maybe 20 points of Structure Integrity Damage and a wiped-out anti-tank platoon on the other side. 5 points of Damage per shot isn't that much, and you need a very good situational advantage (Ambushing the vehicle is a must!) Or the vehicle will take the first shot, and since nearly every vehicle has some sort of long-ranged, high-DPS weapon (Battle Cannon, Autocannon) there is a good chance that they will instagib the attackers (since infantry can't get the luxury of 30+ Armour and 35+ Wounds). And we are talking about the frickin' Lascannon here… With the humble krak missile, you are essentially screwed. 

 

To take out a vehicle, you have to spend so much resources and effort, that at the end of the day, you will feel that it didn't worth it at all. Except if you have a Lance weapon with a Penetration of 6. That will do it.

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So 6 infantry and 2 light walkers engaged a main battle tank from the front, manage to damage it, and then died. That… sounds pretty normal to me.

BYE

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In my game, the players got rid of a tank with a lascutter used against the main hatch and a couple of frag grenades.

Its a roleplaying game, not XVIII century war, you can't expect to stay firm and shot your enemy until it stops moving!

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H.B.M.C. said:

So 6 infantry and 2 light walkers engaged a main battle tank from the front, manage to damage it, and then died. That… sounds pretty normal to me.

BYE

H.B.M.C. said:

So 6 infantry and 2 light walkers engaged a main battle tank from the front, manage to damage it, and then died. That… sounds pretty normal to me.
 

 

Not from the front. From everywhere. And there were at least 20-25 Infantry and 5-6 Sentinels (only 2 with LCs, the rest with ACs and MLs). But if the crew knows how to priorize the targets and how to coordinate their firepower, then the opponent is screwed.

And 6 infantry and 2 light walkers engaging a battle tank and get their butts handed over them is not normal, considering that they had 5 (five) lascannons, one of the most powerful AT weapon of the game… 

 

Whoseyes:

It needs a very stupid tank crew to pull out that trick. For example, when my party plays armour, then they are continously on the move with their tank, and one of the crew members is always glued to the auspex. Just remember: it is not WW2 either, where you can surprise a tank because armoured warfare is still in the maturing phase. 

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AtoMaki said:

 

Whoseyes:

It needs a very stupid tank crew to pull out that trick. For example, when my party plays armour, then they are continously on the move with their tank, and one of the crew members is always glued to the auspex. Just remember: it is not WW2 either, where you can surprise a tank because armoured warfare is still in the maturing phase. 

Good point!

In my game, though, the tank was occupied by Gretchins. I'm sure they thought the auspex was a kind of gameboy or something burla

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There's a reason drop regiments are the only ones that use lascutters as standard, dropping out of the air onto a tank is likely to be the only way it's going to be effective. 

For everybody else stealth is the only way, rely on the poor visability on a locked down tank (snipe people who stick their heads out) and rely on the fact that most Heritics are as well organised and lack of close infantry support. they'll mostly need to get in close and use krak, or better yet melta bombs. 

The las-cannon is the best man portable anti tank weapon, against the pride of the Imperial armoured divisions, the Leman Russ, it needs to be used from ambush, preferably on side or rear armour. Your main enemy as a Tank unit is going to be other tanks emplaced guns, artillery and, Emperor forbid,  aircraft.

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Indeed the MP Lascannon may be the pinnacle of man portable anti-armour weaponry (barring maybe the multi-melta) but it is still only an MP weapon. The Leman Russ is one of the most effective battle tanks in the universe and is often only countered properly by enemy armour or artillery assets.

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If you want Infantry to be dangerous to a PC operated Leman Russ, using the Horde rules for the enemies may be worth a try.

A good sized horde with anti tank weapons as their main armament should be able to do some damage, without the hassle of having to actually roll for more than a dozen combatants.

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Gokerz said:

If you want Infantry to be dangerous to a PC operated Leman Russ, using the Horde rules for the enemies may be worth a try.

A good sized horde with anti tank weapons as their main armament should be able to do some damage, without the hassle of having to actually roll for more than a dozen combatants.

Sorry, in which book can I find those Horde rules? Are they easily adapted to Only War PCs? (I assume we will get personalized horde rules for the IG one day, but who knows when!).

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Horde rules are findable in both Deathwatch and in Black Crusade.  Another thing to think of in a session where either your PCs or your NPCs are on the recieving end of a tank.  Another useful trick is for them to target the tracks first and make the battle sway drastically.  Now granted then they're gonna have to deal with a stationary weapon platform, but even then there's only so much firepower a vehicle like that can bear on either side, making things alot more interesting if this is a ambush in the middle of a important battle.

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Another way to a tank trouble is to have it go into a tight area, like urban terrain.  If the players aren't smart enough to give it a escort on foot then the tank can get swarmed rather easy.  Even in modern warfare infantry getting close to tanks is dangerous.

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Serimus Bodikan said:

Another thing to think of in a session where either your PCs or your NPCs are on the recieving end of a tank.  Another useful trick is for them to target the tracks first and make the battle sway drastically.  Now granted then they're gonna have to deal with a stationary weapon platform, but even then there's only so much firepower a vehicle like that can bear on either side, making things alot more interesting if this is a ambush in the middle of a important battle.

 

PCs usually have an easier way with tanks because they can usually pass next to it without engaging the vehicle. 

 

Amd blowing away the tracks is a pretty hard thing. You need to make a Called Shot, then penetrate and pray for Righteous Fury. The best way would be mines, but by some strange reason, FFG forgot these devices…

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AtoMaki said:

Serimus Bodikan said:

 

Another thing to think of in a session where either your PCs or your NPCs are on the recieving end of a tank.  Another useful trick is for them to target the tracks first and make the battle sway drastically.  Now granted then they're gonna have to deal with a stationary weapon platform, but even then there's only so much firepower a vehicle like that can bear on either side, making things alot more interesting if this is a ambush in the middle of a important battle.

 

 

 

PCs usually have an easier way with tanks because they can usually pass next to it without engaging the vehicle. 

 

Amd blowing away the tracks is a pretty hard thing. You need to make a Called Shot, then penetrate and pray for Righteous Fury. The best way would be mines, but by some strange reason, FFG forgot these devices…

 

Well there are mine rounds for what is it the grenade launcher, and you could also just use the entry for demo charges as mines.  But you really need anti-tank mines, anti-infantry mines wouldn't do much.

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DrNo172000 said:

 

 

 

 

Well there are mine rounds for what is it the grenade launcher, and you could also just use the entry for demo charges as mines.  But you really need anti-tank mines, anti-infantry mines wouldn't do much.

 

A little bit off-topic:

I also used demo charges profile for mines, although I feel that they could have expanded a little bit in the usage of explosives in the core book. For example, demo charges appear to have penetration 0 wich seems odd to me.

Also, it would have been interesting to have rules for several kind of triggers for the demo charges (proximity, contact, timer, etc.). Does anybody know how to manage this stuff in Only War?

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whoseyes said:

DrNo172000 said:

 

 

 

 

 

Well there are mine rounds for what is it the grenade launcher, and you could also just use the entry for demo charges as mines.  But you really need anti-tank mines, anti-infantry mines wouldn't do much.

 

 

 

A little bit off-topic:

I also used demo charges profile for mines, although I feel that they could have expanded a little bit in the usage of explosives in the core book. For example, demo charges appear to have penetration 0 wich seems odd to me.

Also, it would have been interesting to have rules for several kind of triggers for the demo charges (proximity, contact, timer, etc.). Does anybody know how to manage this stuff in Only War?

 

You can always have them make the tech-use test to set the charge itself, then you can have them make a security check to set certain triggers like tripwires and the such.  I do think it mentions vaguely in the book that a demo charge can have a lot of different triggers, I could have imagined that though.

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whoseyes said:

I also used demo charges profile for mines, although I feel that they could have expanded a little bit in the usage of explosives in the core book. For example, demo charges appear to have penetration 0 wich seems odd to me.

I think the best answer would be to keep the base Pen 0, but to have it increase by 2 x DoS on the Test to place the charge. Skilled use of demolitions should be rewarded over just tossing the charge at the target.

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HappyDaze said:

whoseyes said:

 

I also used demo charges profile for mines, although I feel that they could have expanded a little bit in the usage of explosives in the core book. For example, demo charges appear to have penetration 0 wich seems odd to me.

 

 

I think the best answer would be to keep the base Pen 0, but to have it increase by 2 x DoS on the Test to place the charge. Skilled use of demolitions should be rewarded over just tossing the charge at the target.

I'm not sure pen is the way to go with improvised mines - a demo pack is not a shaped charge and so relies on pure destructive explosiveness to deal with targets.

Shaped charges (armour piercing that is) can be seen to have a lower damage in exchange for their armour penetrating ability. Compare the frag and krak missiles for example.

I'd need a book in front of me to concoct a proper, balanced anti-tank mine but i feel it would need to make use of special rules to either automatically damage the motive systems of the vehicle or something similarly cinematic and useful.

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Kasatka said:

HappyDaze said:

 

whoseyes said:

 

I also used demo charges profile for mines, although I feel that they could have expanded a little bit in the usage of explosives in the core book. For example, demo charges appear to have penetration 0 wich seems odd to me.

 

 

I think the best answer would be to keep the base Pen 0, but to have it increase by 2 x DoS on the Test to place the charge. Skilled use of demolitions should be rewarded over just tossing the charge at the target.

 

 

I'm not sure pen is the way to go with improvised mines - a demo pack is not a shaped charge and so relies on pure destructive explosiveness to deal with targets.

Shaped charges (armour piercing that is) can be seen to have a lower damage in exchange for their armour penetrating ability. Compare the frag and krak missiles for example.

I'd need a book in front of me to concoct a proper, balanced anti-tank mine but i feel it would need to make use of special rules to either automatically damage the motive systems of the vehicle or something similarly cinematic and useful.

 

Explosives can be combined with other objects to make shaped charges.  As is the case in IED EFP (improvised explosive device, explosivley formed penetrators).  So perhaps instead of increasing PEN based on degrees of success you could have the person make a more difficult tech use test to assemble the device, given of course they have the proper materials on hand.

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DrNo172000 said:

Kasatka said:

 

HappyDaze said:

 

whoseyes said:

 

I also used demo charges profile for mines, although I feel that they could have expanded a little bit in the usage of explosives in the core book. For example, demo charges appear to have penetration 0 wich seems odd to me.

 

 

I think the best answer would be to keep the base Pen 0, but to have it increase by 2 x DoS on the Test to place the charge. Skilled use of demolitions should be rewarded over just tossing the charge at the target.

 

 

I'm not sure pen is the way to go with improvised mines - a demo pack is not a shaped charge and so relies on pure destructive explosiveness to deal with targets.

Shaped charges (armour piercing that is) can be seen to have a lower damage in exchange for their armour penetrating ability. Compare the frag and krak missiles for example.

I'd need a book in front of me to concoct a proper, balanced anti-tank mine but i feel it would need to make use of special rules to either automatically damage the motive systems of the vehicle or something similarly cinematic and useful.

 

 

 

Explosives can be combined with other objects to make shaped charges.  As is the case in IED EFP (improvised explosive device, explosivley formed penetrators).  So perhaps instead of increasing PEN based on degrees of success you could have the person make a more difficult tech use test to assemble the device, given of course they have the proper materials on hand.

@DrNo172000

You mean something along these lines:

"I shall add this thick copper cone on it's tip over the demo charge. So when it explodes it shall form thin copper spray that increases the penetration of said explosion." or "I shall place this krak grenade inside sack full of ball bearings to make improvides anti-infantry trap."

Know your physics, watch your science channels, go through interwebs or be an combat engineer. Also remember if your players come across UXO (Unexploded ordnance) they might have some fun, if they're crazy enough, fiddling with it to make improvised bomb.

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