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emproc1346

Summoned Stone - Obstacle/Figure

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The rulebook states:  "They [familiars] may be targeted and affected by monster attacks, hero abilities, and Overlord cards that target a hero."

So I think every agrees that a reanimate could obviously be affected by a whole slew of cards/abilities such as Stoneskin, Pit Trap, Dark Charm, Critical Blow, etc. etc…. And a reanimate has to roll a surge to hit an adjacent Shadow Dragon…

But the Stone card says it's a familiar treated as an obstacle… So the question becomes whether this is along with being able to be targeted as a hero or supercedes this language (per the Golden Rules)… Because if it supercedes the language, then it wouldn't be able to be targeted by the things stuff inthe previous paragrah like Dark Charm (or even Prayer of Healing), but also wouldn't need to roll a surge to hit an adjacent Shadow Dragon…

So while I agree that the card text makes the stone an obstacle, does it nonetheless remain treatable as a hero as well?

 

EDIT: And even if it an still be targeted as a hero, does it need a surge to hit an adjacent monster with Shadow, since the language on Shadow only stipulates "hero"?

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By default, a familiar behaves as follows:

  • It cannot be targeted or affected by any attack and does not block line of sight or movement.
  • The familiar is allowed one "move" action per turn, which is in addition to the two regular actions for the hero.
  • Any additional actions or abilities are specified by the card.

A familiar treated as a "figure" follows the opposite criteria for the first rule: it may be targeted by attacks and it does block line of sight and movement. The second and third rules are still applied.

The Summoned Stone familiar treated as an "obstacle" means it blocks line of sight and movement. Because it is not treated as a "figure," then it cannot be targeted by attacks.

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Lanabound said:

The Summoned Stone familiar treated as an "obstacle" means it blocks line of sight and movement. Because it is not treated as a "figure," then it cannot be targeted by attacks.

Except that, after stating that it should be treated like an obstacle, the Summoned Stone familiar card goes on to say that it may be the target of any attacks (by monsters or heroes.)  However, it is not otherwise treated as a figure, because the card doesn't say to treat it like a figure, as you were saying.

Any non-attack abilities, however, would be unable to target a summoned stone.  This would include effects like Dark Charm and Prayer of Healing.

As far as whether or not the summoned stone would need to spend a surge to get passed Shadow, I suppose that would depend on the exact language of the effect that allows the stone to attack in the first place.  If the Geomancer is attacking through a stone then it's still a hero's attack being made, just from an unusual space.  If an effect allows the stone itself to attack, then you may be on to something.  That would be a question for the FAQ.

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Went ahead and submitted a question, and here's the response:

-----------------------------------------------------

Since a Summoned Stone is treated as an obstacle and not a hero or monster figure, no abilities applying to heroes or monsters may be used. Thus, it wouldn't be affected by Shadow. However, any ability that allows you to attack through a Summoned Stone, if it's adjacent to a Shadow Dragon, is subject to the Shadow ability (since the hero is the one performing the attack).

The Reanimate is treated as a hero figure, so it would be subject to Shadow.
 
Thanks,
Justin Kemppainen
Creative Content Developer
Fantasy Flight Games"

 

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Hello everybody,

 

We were playing the Dark Elements expansion and came across the encounter Glimmerlack Hall. The OL effects states that each hero in an unlit space moves two spaces towards Axirumm (the master hybrid sentinel). From the discussion above I presume the Summoned Stone don't move two spaces towards Axirumm?

I am aiming at the difference between being targeted or affected by an attack or ability on one hand or being affected by these 'enviromental' effects on the other. We are just assuming the summoned stones aren't affected but I am curious about your opinions on the matter.

Happy holidays!

 

EDIT: Is the summoned stone affected by the burning condition? Since the stone is considered to be an obstacle and not a figure.

Edited by Ceasarsalad101

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1)Stones are not heroes or even treated like heroes. Nothing that refers to 'hero' EVER refers to a stone.

2)Because of the nature of that card, as a note (not an OL card, activation card, or hero/monster ability) it would't count reanimate or wolf, either.

3) Summoned stones, because they are affected by attacks, can also be inflicted with conditions. Their" 'turn' is their activation, just like a monster.

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Zalt, I just noticed an errata about Summoned stones in the Mannor of Ravens expansion:

 

Q: Can monsters attack the Geomancer’s Summoned Stones since they’re not
familiars?
A: When determining the target of an Activation card, Summoned
Stones are considered to be heroes.

 

So that means a summoned stone is treated like a hero only when it activates?

Edited by Dommus

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Summoned stones are not considered heroes during their activation. The only time a summoned stone would be treated as a hero is when a monster is attacking it (such as to inflict a condition, etc.) The answer in the FAQ is clarifying that activation cards (the instructions for monster behavior during the co-op modules) include summoned stones when they talk about heroes. This is because summoned stones are explicitly targetable by attacks, so it makes sense that in co-op, a flesh moulder might direct its attack at a summoned stone.

 

EDIT: I misspoke. A stone isn't even considered a hero when attacking it- but it can be attacked and receive conditions.

Edited by Zaltyre
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Went ahead and submitted a question, and here's the response:

-----------------------------------------------------

Since a Summoned Stone is treated as an obstacle and not a hero or monster figure, no abilities applying to heroes or monsters may be used. Thus, it wouldn't be affected by Shadow. However, any ability that allows you to attack through a Summoned Stone, if it's adjacent to a Shadow Dragon, is subject to the Shadow ability (since the hero is the one performing the attack).

The Reanimate is treated as a hero figure, so it would be subject to Shadow.
 
Thanks,

Justin Kemppainen

Creative Content Developer

Fantasy Flight Games"

 

Well, don't get me wrong, I believe that this is real answer, but...

That doesn't really make any sense. Or does "measure range/LoS" means "assume you're in that space"?

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Went ahead and submitted a question, and here's the response:

-----------------------------------------------------

Since a Summoned Stone is treated as an obstacle and not a hero or monster figure, no abilities applying to heroes or monsters may be used. Thus, it wouldn't be affected by Shadow. However, any ability that allows you to attack through a Summoned Stone, if it's adjacent to a Shadow Dragon, is subject to the Shadow ability (since the hero is the one performing the attack).

The Reanimate is treated as a hero figure, so it would be subject to Shadow.

 

Well, don't get me wrong, I believe that this is real answer, but...

That doesn't really make any sense. Or does "measure range/LoS" means "assume you're in that space"?

 

I agree, this ruling is a little bogus.

 

If the wording of the Shadow Dragon ability was: "An attack from a space adjacent to this monster", then this makes sense.

 

However, because it is: "A hero adjacent to this monster that declares an attack must spend 1 surge or the attack is considered a miss." its odd. The hero is not adjacent to the monster, the summoned stone is. And the hero is the one performing the attack, not the summoned stone. Shadow shouldn't trigger in my view.

Edited by Charmy

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Went ahead and submitted a question, and here's the response:

-----------------------------------------------------

Since a Summoned Stone is treated as an obstacle and not a hero or monster figure, no abilities applying to heroes or monsters may be used. Thus, it wouldn't be affected by Shadow. However, any ability that allows you to attack through a Summoned Stone, if it's adjacent to a Shadow Dragon, is subject to the Shadow ability (since the hero is the one performing the attack).

The Reanimate is treated as a hero figure, so it would be subject to Shadow.

Well, don't get me wrong, I believe that this is real answer, but...

That doesn't really make any sense. Or does "measure range/LoS" means "assume you're in that space"?

I agree, this ruling is a little bogus.

If the wording of the Shadow Dragon ability was: "An attack from a space adjacent to this monster", then this makes sense.

However, because it is: "A hero adjacent to this monster that declares an attack must spend 1 surge or the attack is considered a miss." its odd. The hero is not adjacent to the monster, the summoned stone is. And the hero is the one performing the attack, not the summoned stone. Shadow shouldn't trigger in my view.

Doesn't the skill with which you attack through the stone say something like "line of sight and range are measured through the stone" or something like that?

So the ruling makes sense, because you act like the hero is in the place of the stone and thus considered to be next to the shadow dragon while performing the attack. (Though I am not completely sure about the exact words/effect because I only own the german version).

Also the erata is also not only for correcting printing/wording errors but also to change effects which make no sense and a bit of balanceing....

So I guess the ruling makes sure the effect works as INTENDED and not like it's written on the card.

Edited by Kaisho
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I was talking about that:

Went ahead and submitted a question, and here's the response:

-----------------------------------------------------

Since a Summoned Stone is treated as an obstacle and not a hero or monster figure, no abilities applying to heroes or monsters may be used. Thus, it wouldn't be affected by Shadow. However, any ability that allows you to attack through a Summoned Stone, if it's adjacent to a Shadow Dragon, is subject to the Shadow ability (since the hero is the one performing the attack).

The Reanimate is treated as a hero figure, so it would be subject to Shadow.

 

Thanks,

Justin Kemppainen

Creative Content Developer

Fantasy Flight Games"[/size][/size]

Well, don't get me wrong, I believe that this is real answer, but...

That doesn't really make any sense. Or does "measure range/LoS" means "assume you're in that space"?

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Different skils and different effects:

 

 

edit: corrected by Zaltyre answer.

  • Terracall - (0XP) (1 Fatigue)
    • Exhaust this card to place a Summoned Stone in an empty space within 3 spaces of you.
    • While this card is exhausted, 1 of your Summoned Stones may perform an attack during its activation (using 1 of your equipped Magic weapons). The attack come from the summoned stone (considered as an obstacle) , It is not affected by Shadow (A hero adjacent to this monster that declares an attack must spend 1 surge or the attack is considered a miss).
  • Cataclysm - (3XP) (2 Fatigue)
    • Exhaust this card. For each Summoned Stone on the map, perform 1 attack with a Magic weapon, measuring range and line of sight from a space containing a Summoned Stone. The hero make the attack, if the hero its adjacent at Shadow Dragon, it is affected by the Shadow Skill.
  •  
  • edit: corrected by Zaltyre answer.
Edited by kraisto
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Right, yes. All the response is saying is that the stone is not a hero, and not subject to abilities which target "heroes" (like shadow). Therefore, a stone can sit next to a shadow dragon all day and not worry about shadow.

 

Justin responded later in response to a follow-up:

 

Hmmm... I believe I may have misspoke in that email. I know what it is I meant, but either typos or a case of "the dumb" assailed me, I cannot recall. I think I meant to say he and him instead of it.
 
 
The positioning of the familiar (when being attacked through) is irrelevant to the Shadow ability, unless the familiar itself (if treated as a hero) is the one performing the attack. However, if the Geomancer is the one performing the attack while he himself is adjacent to the shadow dragon, the attack is subject to Shadow, no matter its origin point.
 
 
Molten Fury, Earthen Anguish, and Cataclysm all follow this pattern. The hero is the one performing the attack (either measuring from or targeting the space containing the Summoned Stone). 
 
 
Thanks,
Justin Kemppainen
Creative Content Developer
Fantasy Flight Games
jkemppainen@fantasyflightgames.com
 
So, what he's saying boils down to, "hero position matters for shadow, not "non hero" position, because shadow only affects heroes (or things treated like heroes).
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Right, yes. All the response is saying is that the stone is not a hero, and not subject to abilities which target "heroes" (like shadow). Therefore, a stone can sit next to a shadow dragon all day and not worry about shadow.

 

Justin responded later in response to a follow-up:

 

Hmmm... I believe I may have misspoke in that email. I know what it is I meant, but either typos or a case of "the dumb" assailed me, I cannot recall. I think I meant to say he and him instead of it.
 
 
The positioning of the familiar (when being attacked through) is irrelevant to the Shadow ability, unless the familiar itself (if treated as a hero) is the one performing the attack. However, if the Geomancer is the one performing the attack while he himself is adjacent to the shadow dragon, the attack is subject to Shadow, no matter its origin point.
 
 
Molten Fury, Earthen Anguish, and Cataclysm all follow this pattern. The hero is the one performing the attack (either measuring from or targeting the space containing the Summoned Stone). 
 
 
Thanks,
Justin Kemppainen
Creative Content Developer
Fantasy Flight Games
jkemppainen@fantasyflightgames.com
 
So, what he's saying boils down to, "hero position matters for shadow, not "non hero" position, because shadow only affects heroes (or things treated like heroes).

 

 

 

So, if the hero its not adjacent, and the summoned stone is, the attack its not affected by Shadow anyway ?

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Correct!  And if the hero is adjacent to the shadow dragon, it doesn't matter where the stone is, shadow must be dealt with.

 

A hero adjacent to this monster that declares an attack must spend 1 Surge or the attack is considered a miss.
 
That is, if the hero is adj to the shadow dragon and attacks using molten fury to measure range from a summoned stone 3 spaces away, he has to spend a surge for shadow. 
 
If, however, the hero is 3 spaces away from the dragon and uses molten fury to attack a shadow dragon adjacent to a summoned stone, no shadow.
 
And above all, if the summoned stone is performing an attack (like with terracall, not like molten fury) it doesn't matter who is where because the summoned stone is not a hero figure so shadow has no effect at all when the stone declares an attack.
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Correct!  And if the hero is adjacent to the shadow dragon, it doesn't matter where the stone is, shadow must be dealt with.

 

A hero adjacent to this monster that declares an attack must spend 1 Surge or the attack is considered a miss.

 

That is, if the hero is adj to the shadow dragon and attacks using molten fury to measure range from a summoned stone 3 spaces away, he has to spend a surge for shadow. 

 

If, however, the hero is 3 spaces away from the dragon and uses molten fury to attack a shadow dragon adjacent to a summoned stone, no shadow.

 

And above all, if the summoned stone is performing an attack (like with terracall, not like molten fury) it doesn't matter who is where because the summoned stone is not a hero figure so shadow has no effect at all when the stone declares an attack.

Huh? So if a hero standing next to the shadow dragon attacks another monster, he still has to use a fatigue to do damage?

I am not sure where (in an english erata, in this forum or the forum of the german publisher) it was said it only counts for the shadow dragon, or is that not the case? Was there a change in the ruling or did I just remember that wrong?

In my group we never had the problem with the stones, because we never had a stone next to the shadow dragons (I don't like them that much...) but good to know.

;-)

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I do not know the German text, but the English text is exactly as in my post above. If you are adjacent to the draagon, it does not matter who you are attacking- you must spend a surge to deal with shadow or the attack misses.

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I do not know the German text, but the English text is exactly as in my post above. If you are adjacent to the draagon, it does not matter who you are attacking- you must spend a surge to deal with shadow or the attack misses.

German Versions says: "Schatten: Wenn ein Held dieses Monster von einem Nachbarfeld aus angreift...."

Which means: "Shadow: When a hero attacks this Monster from an adjacent field..."

 

The german translation of the shadow ability is indeed poorly worded. It is exactly as Zaltyre stated.

Yeah, the german translation says something completely different. :blink:

 

 

And I was always wondering why it says in the erata that you don't need two surges if you stand between two shadow dragons... :huh:

Edited by Kaisho
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