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Toqtamish

Reach of the Kraken Preview

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Like the way this agenda work, too bad it will need few more CP's to flesh itself to work with enough naval characters. Anyone else waiting to make a naval epic battle deck since this thing is once per phase? ;)

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Oh, the trickery that we'll see since you get to search the Hold for whatever you want! 

Oh, and mill got hosed.

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Not really. Assuming 13/30 cards on setup and draw, my opponent has 17 cards left in his draw deck. Milling that away to strip him of 2cards/turn draw is very easy. Sure, the payoff isn't as great - he still has a way of accessing 1 card/turn (but after the marshalling phase and it's challenge dependent), and I'm less likely to trigger specific mill based effects

Overall, I'd say Mill vs Black Sails is a good match up for mill!

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Black Sails decks can be easily milled.  If you are the opponent, choose the biggest stack to become The Hold.  Then you are going to be milling away at a deck that should have less than 30 cards in it and that shouldn't take very long at all.  A Raiding Fleet will remove almost 1/3 of the deck by itself if you happen to play one.

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Current Naval character count:

Neutral: 1 (+1 forthcoming)

Bara: 1 (+2)

Lanni: 2 (+1)

Targ: 2 (+0)

Stark: 2 (+0)

GJ: 3 (+0)

Martell: None

Supporting Plot: 1 (+1)

They've had worse roll-outs for new agendas (cough chargendas cough). There's probably tonnes more to come.

I'm also not bothered by its potential weakness to mill. If only certain other agendas had some inherent liabilities.

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I think the agenda allows you to build larger decks(depending on the numbero f naval characters there are).  The whole "search and grab" from the hold is a huge advantage that can sort of overcome the larger deck stuff.  The thing that scares me about building a larger deck is if I am adding additional locations and events, if I get stuck with the majority of those in my "deck" instead of my "hold", I may be choked out of not drawing many characters.

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Bomb said:

I think the agenda allows you to build larger decks(depending on the numbero f naval characters there are).  The whole "search and grab" from the hold is a huge advantage that can sort of overcome the larger deck stuff.  The thing that scares me about building a larger deck is if I am adding additional locations and events, if I get stuck with the majority of those in my "deck" instead of my "hold", I may be choked out of not drawing many characters.

You could build a large deck with nearly all characters, and then use the agenda's effect to search for events and locations. 

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I was hoping while reading that Agenda it would have a last sentence of "While The Black Sails is your Agenda, your Draw Deck cannot have cards discarded from it in any way from other character, location, attachment, and agenda effects." Just to protect it some. I still think Mill is going to hurt the Hell out of this thing… You're gonna have to play with a 200 card deck.

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A smaller deck does make it easier to mill, but in some ways it seems like a boon to me to have a smaller deck against mill; as we all know, milling someone out doesnt win this game, mill in part relies on triggering their own effects thru milling, so if they can't draw with Euron and FMS or claim power with Corpse Lake then the mill deck may just grind to a halt while you continue to trigger effects that get cards from the Hold…?  I guess it will depend on how many other effects let you access the Hold.

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Mill them to nothing, Valar, no more Naval icons. Shouldn't be hard to win unopposed challenges against an opponent with zero card draw.

An eighty card deck split in half is an interesting idea. I wonder if it will pan out.

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Rehlow said:

Mill them to nothing, Valar, no more Naval icons. Shouldn't be hard to win unopposed challenges against an opponent with zero card draw.

Yeah, in this mill-heavy environment this agenda has no shot.

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We were discussing this at my local store tonight before their weelky AGOT tourney. Considering this happens as soon as you reveal houses and agendas, this particular agenda is hard to swallow, as you could easily end up with no setup and/or no characters in your draw deck ( all in your hold). Mill isn't the only caveat for this one.

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stormwolf27 said:

We were discussing this at my local store tonight before their weelky AGOT tourney. Considering this happens as soon as you reveal houses and agendas, this particular agenda is hard to swallow, as you could easily end up with no setup and/or no characters in your draw deck ( all in your hold).

I don't get it. Given a random distribution, how is drawing 7 cards from the top of a half of your deck any different than drawing 7 cards from the top of your deck. If my shuffle is that unlucky that all my characters are clumped together in one half of the deck, then I'm screwed with or without the agenda. Admittedly, in the case of a terrible setup hand an unlucky distribution of cards between your Hold and your draw deck, a mulligan will do less to alleviate the situation. But really, that's a deckbuilding issue. If you have bad setups with this agenda, you'll have them without the agenda as well.

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Saturnine said:

stormwolf27 said:

 

We were discussing this at my local store tonight before their weelky AGOT tourney. Considering this happens as soon as you reveal houses and agendas, this particular agenda is hard to swallow, as you could easily end up with no setup and/or no characters in your draw deck ( all in your hold).

 

 

I don't get it. Given a random distribution, how is drawing 7 cards from the top of a half of your deck any different than drawing 7 cards from the top of your deck. If my shuffle is that unlucky that all my characters are clumped together in one half of the deck, then I'm screwed with or without the agenda. Admittedly, in the case of a terrible setup hand an unlucky distribution of cards between your Hold and your draw deck, a mulligan will do less to alleviate the situation. But really, that's a deckbuilding issue. If you have bad setups with this agenda, you'll have them without the agenda as well.

I understand this, and I don't typically have bad setups (there's that one game in about 40 where my characters retreat to the middle of the deck, but it happens). My point is there's too much risk of not drawing anything that can allow you to get something out of the hold at the moment. There will be, I'm sure, more options later, but for this first CP, I think this agenda will sit by the wayside for a bit. I'm just underwhelmed at its current playability. Perhaps FFG should have waited a couple packs to fill a CP slot with this one.

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That argument I can understand. Given the reliance on the naval enhancement, this will probably need a few chapter packs to get going. Maester's Path wasn't too hot with just the first pack either (though perhaps still more functional than Black Sails).

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It's good support for combo decks. Either search the card you need out the Hold or get it quickly from your reduced draw deck. I don't see why people would use more than 60 cards though, it trades better hold choice for crappier draw deck efficiency. Unless Mill gets crazy popular.

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Saturnine said:

I don't get it. Given a random distribution, how is drawing 7 cards from the top of a half of your deck any different than drawing 7 cards from the top of your deck. If my shuffle is that unlucky that all my characters are clumped together in one half of the deck, then I'm screwed with or without the agenda. Admittedly, in the case of a terrible setup hand an unlucky distribution of cards between your Hold and your draw deck, a mulligan will do less to alleviate the situation. But really, that's a deckbuilding issue. If you have bad setups with this agenda, you'll have them without the agenda as well.

Without this agenda, all the setup efficient cards being at the bottom of your deck does not hurt you upon your first 7 card draw because you can mulligan and reshuffle the entire deck to get another chance at redistributing those setup friendly cards.  With this agenda, what your Hold contains is permanent as soon as the deck is split.  If your first shuffle puts most setup friendly cards in one half of the deck, and that half is chosen for your Hold, you cannot mulligan back into those cards period.  So, to me, that is completely different than using your normal deck because there is the added chance that a mulligan will only allow you to redraw a very similar hand to the one you just mulligan'd away.  If your deck before the agenda is minimum deck size of 60 and you split the decks evenly, you are now drawing 7 out of 30 cards. With a mulligan you have a significantly better chance to draw some, if not most, of the same cards you tossed away. 

To me, this agenda completely changes the value of a mulligan.  I just can't decide if it is more or if it is less.

For example, let's say I draw four cards that I can place during setup.  My chance to redraw one of those cards from that setup hand is double compared to a regular 60 card deck.  So, is it better to mulligan decent setup friendly hands knowing that my chances to redraw the cards I want to keep are doubled? 

Just some food for thought.

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Bomb said:

To me, this agenda completely changes the value of a mulligan.

A fact that I did acknowledge in my post, though only briefly. I do believe the value of mulligan goes down a little bit, but if your setup hand is crap there's still a good chance your setup will improve even with a mulligan out of 30 cards, assuming your deck is built properly and the bad setup hand is really a fluke.

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Hurts mulligans and easier for your deck to be milled. I don't see that as much of a competitive threat unless mill becomes viable outside against this matchup.

In essence very little drawback for a search ability from the beginning of the game.

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Question is how often would it hurt mulligans. Because it's not like you mulligan because you draw bad cards (since assumption is that all cards in deck do something good for you), but because you draw bad combination of cards. And if it's combination that you care about then probability of you redrawing 4 events and 3 4-cost characters is probably about twice out of 30 card deck compared to 60, but it's just very small anyway (let's say on the order of percent and doubles to being on the order of percent with 30 card deck).

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It might increase the value of mulligans simply based on the info you get about whats in your deck.  A mulligan when you only have a 30 card deck means that anything that you drew into the first time and didnt get the second time is less than 20 cards away and will probably be drawn within the first few Rounds, and you can adjust your strategy based on the knowledge that those cards are coming soon. 

Also, is it a boon that you don't add cards from the Hold to your hand until the end of Phase, meaning they cannot be lost to I challenge, Ghost of HH, etc, or is it a weakness b/c you want to play the cards that come from the Hold that same phase?  Will Black Sails players overextend at the beginning in the hopes of getting board control to push through the challenges to maximize the number of cards they get from the Hold, or is overextending even more dangerous since a reset could leave you with a precarious position of maybe not drawing enough characters to get back in the game b/c they are all stuck in the Hold?  Or will everyone just reveal Naval Reinforcements as their first Plot every time so as to look through the Hold so they know exactly what is available in their deck? 

Will icon-stripping be the best counter to this Agenda since a player can't touch the Hold if he/she has no N characters to win challenges?  Many questions…

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Now that I go back and think about it, you could strategize based on what is in your hold before you decide whether to mulligan or not. The reason I say this is, if you look at the wording of the agenda and plot card spoiled for this, there is no indication you don't know exactly what is in your hold.

The Black Sails says "When you win a challenge with…choose a card in the hold…" not "search for"

Naval Reinforcements says "reveal a character from your hold…" not "search for and reveal a character…"

This makes me think that, as soon as your deck has been divided into draw and hold, you, as the owner of that hold, have full right to look at/through your hold at any time, including before setup to decide whether or not to mulligan… or to simply know what's missing from your draw deck to plan accordingly.

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stormwolf27 said:

Now that I go back and think about it, you could strategize based on what is in your hold before you decide whether to mulligan or not. The reason I say this is, if you look at the wording of the agenda and plot card spoiled for this, there is no indication you don't know exactly what is in your hold.

The Black Sails says "When you win a challenge with…choose a card in the hold…" not "search for"

Naval Reinforcements says "reveal a character from your hold…" not "search for and reveal a character…"

This makes me think that, as soon as your deck has been divided into draw and hold, you, as the owner of that hold, have full right to look at/through your hold at any time, including before setup to decide whether or not to mulligan… or to simply know what's missing from your draw deck to plan accordingly.

That being said, without more "get X out of The Hold" stuff, which I'm sure is coming in the future packs, this one will still sit in my agenda box for a bit.

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