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hothie

Wave 2 Insights

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I'm still new, but would the ion cannons play a bigger role against the new bigger ships?  The chance to knock them out is a chance to take out a bigger chunk of the enemy force.

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As I mentioned before, the large ships need 2 Ion hits in order to be affected by them, so you're committing half of your squad at minimum just to try and Ion 1 large ship. I think you'll find most people will say it's not worth the points.

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hothie said:

As I mentioned before, the large ships need 2 Ion hits in order to be affected by them, so you're committing half of your squad at minimum just to try and Ion 1 large ship. I think you'll find most people will say it's not worth the points.

I agree, it doesn't appear to be worth the points. But the large ships have a greater chance of landing on an asteroid, which means an ion hit will not only disable them, it will prevent them from attacking that turn. Now THAT has potential.

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Given everything that I'm seeing about imperial maneuverability w/ Tie Interceptors (and fewer ships), I'm really thinking I'm going to throw another Y Wing w/ Ion Cannon in my rebel lists at first -- at least until I see less push the limits in lists.  To really spoil highly maneuverable lists, you could go:

Lando, Expose, Weapons Engineer, Milennium Falcon
Gold Squadron, Ion Cannon, R2
Gold Squadron, Ion Cannon, R2

360 arcs of fire everywhere, and as soon as you ion cannon something (or line up a good shot), Lando can switch to expose (ideally on something target locked) and blow it out of space.  It also has 29 hit points. so if your opponent has fewer ships they may run out of punch before you take much damage.

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I have been thinking the same thing. My 'defensive' squad, for dealing with high maneuverability, push the limit ships is as follows.

Gold Squadron Pilot, R2-D2, Ion Cannon

Gold Squadron Pilot, R5 unit, Ion Cannon

Chewbacca, YT-1300, Millenium Falcon, Veteran Instincts, Gunner.

 

I think that Stealth and PtL will change the meta, especially for the Imperials. I have run the A-Wings and the Interceptor with variations of Stealth and PtL builds. One ship changes the dynamic, two or more will shift the paradigm.

Both Turr and Tycho can be quite devastating when used as a strike force that comes in from the side whilst the rest of the squad keep you busy.

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My cousin took a four ship rebel build into the Kessel run and did something most players have not been able to do.  He out maneuvered ties in the asteroid field.  He defeated ALL TIE swarms that he faced except mine.  To note he was winning our match until I rolled four crits on Wedge and then four hits with backstabber against Skywalker. 

Where am I going with this?  What I think GOOD players are going to start to do is use upgrade cards to manuver ships better than they have before wave two. Using the engine upgrade card on Y-wings with ion canons gets things done.  It takes awhile but it works.   Red squadron x-wings picking up a boost to get into range one and shoot before those academy pilots.  Players will begin to drift away from taking a focus with every ship everytime.  

What this thread is doing that not a lot of the others have even started talking about, is how do you modify your style of play, not the ships, to deal with some of the upgrades in the new wave?  

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I was playing an Imperial list yesterday I got two games in and I thought I would share my insights:

 

BTW I very much stole this list from the forums except the Sootir Fell combo(which was the lowest performer):

Back Stabber engines upgrade

Mauler Engines upgrade

Turr Push the limits

Sootir Fell - Daredevil - I have to rethink this because it didn't come up as much as I would have liked.

 

Game One I played  - A-wing Homing missile, Wedge with R2 D2, and 2 x rookie pilots. This was a newer squad for my opponent and she was having growing pains using them. Still it was an awesome game.

1) I forced myself to try to boost as my action as much as I could. I wanted try it out, and I have to say WOW. I think with the fact that I knew where my opponents final position of her ships(I had mostly higher pilot skill) I was easily able to get into a firing arc where my ships could shoot and hers couldn't. Comboing barrel roll and boost is just fantastic.

2) You have to be extra careful setting up you positions, because if you expose one of your ties they are still ties and they die very fast when X-wings are firing at range one.

3) In tight. I believe that rebel ships (barring the A-wing) are better in tight than tie's. There ability to go forward one or bank 1 gives them the edge I think in the pack. I know that Tie's have the sharp 1, but that is it the next shortest move they have is 2 forward. What I have learnt from this is once the pile starts setting up it is best to get out of dodge with a forward move five and then regroup and go back in. The Boost again is great for this. I got target locked by the A-wing, and I just flew my Tie out beyond range three regrouped and came back in for the kill before the missiles got to shoot.

 

Game two I played - 3 Interceptor (pilot skill 4) and three academy pilots. This game I lost, but I took a lot from it. I was playing a sort of swarm and I thought my ties were doomed.

 

1) Again my high pilot skill allowed me to see where all of his ships were ending up before I moved which was a big advantage. Again I just boosted into lanes where I can shoot and my opponent could not.

*note my secound move with FELL was a K turn 3 which had him in front of 4 ties facing the wrong way!! lesson always double check your dials. LOL

2) when you make that first pass and you 'get out of dodge' I used boost a few times to get myself out of fire ranges. Totally stole Hothie's barrel  roll push the limits boost on Turr worked beautifully.

3) The lesson that ended up being the end of me. When you are in tight get out of there rather than doing a sharp 1 or lazy two. What happened was I went to turn and bumped and that in turned bumped my other ship and left me exposed and with out actions. My ties went down like chumps. Until this poin the game looked like it was mine. I was a head in points and I was in a good position, but I got cocky like a kid from Tatooine.

 

I have to say the game felt more dynamic with this list. Rather than formation flying I was broken up and weaving and dodging. It made the game feel more intense. I am looking forward to seeing how the guys who are going to stick with the low pilot skill formation squads change to adapt to maneuverable squads to keep them in their sites.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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hothie said:

As I mentioned before, the large ships need 2 Ion hits in order to be affected by them, so you're committing half of your squad at minimum just to try and Ion 1 large ship. I think you'll find most people will say it's not worth the points.

Remember that that 1st Ion token remains on the ship for the whole game until a second Ion hit happens.  You don't technically need 2 ships with Ion attacks as you can hit the large ship once and then just wait for the large ship to make a bad move, hit it again with the ion attack and let it careen itself off the map.  A large ship with an Ion token on it can start to get real limited in where it moves.  Especially the Firespray which doesn't have that critical 1 speed hard right/left turn.

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spacemonkeymafia said:

hothie said:

 

As I mentioned before, the large ships need 2 Ion hits in order to be affected by them, so you're committing half of your squad at minimum just to try and Ion 1 large ship. I think you'll find most people will say it's not worth the points.

 

 

Remember that that 1st Ion token remains on the ship for the whole game until a second Ion hit happens.  You don't technically need 2 ships with Ion attacks as you can hit the large ship once and then just wait for the large ship to make a bad move, hit it again with the ion attack and let it careen itself off the map.  A large ship with an Ion token on it can start to get real limited in where it moves.  Especially the Firespray which doesn't have that critical 1 speed hard right/left turn.

That is excellent! I remembered that they held onto the token, but it never occurred to me that this might alter the way the player flies their big ship(s). Maybe Wedge + Biggs + Gold w/ ion x2 will still be viable. Although I understand your point about only needing one ion cannon, in my experience attacks against ships with 3 agility rarely deal more than one damage anyway, so I don't see the Ion Cannon Turret as much of a sacrifice. It's definitely a boon.

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Picasso said:

My cousin took a four ship rebel build into the Kessel run and did something most players have not been able to do.  He out maneuvered ties in the asteroid field.  He defeated ALL TIE swarms that he faced except mine.  To note he was winning our match until I rolled four crits on Wedge and then four hits with backstabber against Skywalker. 

Where am I going with this?  What I think GOOD players are going to start to do is use upgrade cards to manuver ships better than they have before wave two. Using the engine upgrade card on Y-wings with ion canons gets things done.  It takes awhile but it works.   Red squadron x-wings picking up a boost to get into range one and shoot before those academy pilots.  Players will begin to drift away from taking a focus with every ship everytime.  

What this thread is doing that not a lot of the others have even started talking about, is how do you modify your style of play, not the ships, to deal with some of the upgrades in the new wave?  

I was comparing Wave 2 notes with another local player last night, and it occurred to me that there are a couple of simple questions I think every squad should be able to answer in the new meta. It might be an oversimplification, but I think it has some value:

1) Now that 3 Agility and Stealth are both part of the meta, how are you going to deal with Agility 4 ships in a tournament time limit? 

2) Now that both factions have a cool new ship with double-digit hit points, how are you going to kill a ship that can absorb that kind of damage?

Not every opponent will field either of those things, and against some opponents you might be able to simply ignore the tank or zippy little mosquitoes. But many lists will force you to do at least one, so it might be worth some thought.

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Picasso said:

at not a lot of the others have even started talking about, is how do you modify your style of play, not the ships, to deal with some of the upgrades in the new wave?  

Discussing modifying style of play is going to be difficult to discuss without lists.  A high pilot skill imperial list with lots of push the limits and interceptors (or Engine upgrades) might be brutal against a 4 X-Wing list with lower pilot skills.  On the flip side, if that same imperial list comes up against Wedge with Veteran Instincts, Luke With Veteran Instancs, and Tycho with Veteran Instincts, those boost and barrel rolls will be mostly useless for getting out of fire arcs.  

Personally, I'll be trying some lists with as many different actions on them as possible while having squad leader or dutch around.  A prototype A-Wing may not get much use out of boost on its own, but if i have Lando and Sqad Leader Wedge around, the A-Wing can evade as its action, then either boost or target lock when Lando activates, and then Focus or something else with Wedge's Squad Leader.  I think versatility is going to be the name of the game after wave two hits, and pre planned strategies are going to work a whole lot less.

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Picasso said:

Sorry, again I forget that not everybody has all the wave two ships yet.  It's easy for me to say things because I've played them, a lot already. 

How many did you get?  I don't know anyone that has any, let alone enough to use lists comprised mostly of wave 2 models…

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i can see some interesting trends emerging with wave2. some of these have already been mentioned by hothie and others.

1) players will move towards smaller sized squads, especially imperials who will probably opt for 4 or 5 ship sqauds which include at least two interecepters in the mix.

2) boost will most likely alter the tactics players will commonly use both on attack and defense which will also lead to less flying in formation and more tactical flying with individual ships mostly operationg on their own without supporting cards like swarm (i am still loathe to ditch Howlrunner from my builds but in time i might have to to counter boosting ships which force me to spread out my forces more than in the past).

3) Falcon and Slave1 based sqauds are still an unknown in many ways. I can see how Y-Wings/Ion cannons will be even more useful as both a means to freeze the bigger ships and counter ships with boost, as mentioned in this thread Y-Wings with boost themselves will give rebel players even more options to disrupt at long range (especially if they can aabuse ceratin upgrades/abilities which let them gain free target locks in consecutive rounds)

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Endgame124 said:

Discussing modifying style of play is going to be difficult to discuss without lists.  A high pilot skill imperial list with lots of push the limits and interceptors (or Engine upgrades) might be brutal against a 4 X-Wing list with lower pilot skills.  On the flip side, if that same imperial list comes up against Wedge with Veteran Instincts, Luke With Veteran Instancs, and Tycho with Veteran Instincts, those boost and barrel rolls will be mostly useless for getting out of fire arcs.  

 

Against highly maneuverable squads 4X lists can be completely out maneuvered and when played against correctly can be denied ever getting shots off.

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@endgame,

I won a falcon at worlds.  

I played in three Kessel Runs, two with my girlfriend.  My cousin also joined us for two of them. We brought home the following;

1 YT-100

3-Slave ones

1 A-wing

1 ininterceptor 

my cousin wanted one of each of the large based ships which he got.

i traded one of the slave ones for an A-wing and an interceptor preorder. 

I think that's everything.  We had a good weekend minus the first tourny where the store order was intentionally pairing us against each other and adding rounds to what should have been a 2 round format.  The guy didn't know ANY of the rules and his regulars had illegal lists that he let them use.  We still won the tourny and my girlfriend and I decided I would forfeit and head down the road to a second run.  So we took a third there. I won the second tourny.  The rest of my "team" missed that tourny by five min.  I played a tough game in the second round against Thomas Mann, who I met at worlds and now play against when I can sneak a game in not at home.  Thomas is one of the best rebel players I've had the pleasure of playing.   The third run I played was on Sunday and we finished 1, 2, 3.  My girlfriend and I played in the final game and honestly she kicked the snot out of me using the rebels.  I'd like to note that at this tourny the boards were a good foot short and Erin and I had a huge advantage because our coffee table that we play quick games on is the same size. We both said we had an easier time maneuvering the opening of the game because of this. 

Sorry this became long winded.  If you want more details or game breakdowns Send me a message on here and i will put it together for you.

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Endgame124 said:

Given everything that I'm seeing about imperial maneuverability w/ Tie Interceptors (and fewer ships), I'm really thinking I'm going to throw another Y Wing w/ Ion Cannon in my rebel lists at first -- at least until I see less push the limits in lists.  To really spoil highly maneuverable lists, you could go:

Lando, Expose, Weapons Engineer, Milennium Falcon
Gold Squadron, Ion Cannon, R2
Gold Squadron, Ion Cannon, R2

360 arcs of fire everywhere

A Rebel list without Xwings or Awings?!?!?! What are you thinking man?!?!?!

The answer to that question is "outside of the box," and I absolutely love it. This and EnglishPete's list will be good counters to the Squints and Awings flitting all about the board.

As for this particular list, you will never use the Weapons Engineer, so i would drop him quickly. I say this because you don't have Dutch handing out target locks like candy, so the Falcon will have to use its own action for target lock. Having the weapons engineer on there means lots of things have to happen:

1. You do not use Expose as your action
2. You do not use Evade as your action, since you also have the Millenium Falcon title card in your squad.
3. You do not use Focus as your action
4. You are not stressed
5. You do not collide with another ship
6. You do not collide with an asteroid
7. Given all of the above factors, you then can perform a target lock
8. After performing said target lock, you then do not USE it this combat round
9. Next round, You do not use Expose as your action
10. You do not use Evade as your action
11. You do not use Focus as your action
12. You are not stressed
13. You do not collide with another ship (which have now all moved since the last round)
14. You do not collide with an asteroid
15. The ship that you previously target locked has not been destroyed
16. You then can perform another target lock on another ship. THIS is where your Weapons Engineer comes into play.

For me, I'd say he's a waste of points for you, especially without Dutch. If you're going to change one of your Gold Pilots to Dutch, I'd say drop the MF title card and Expose. Then the Weapons Engineer might actually work better for you.

Also, don't get me wrong when I say this will be a good counter. It will render the defensive aspects of Boost useless, and the ion cannons will slow ships down, but you're still running 3 ships with a 1 agility, and offensively, you're really not going to scare anyone. So, I don't think it will necessarily win much, but I love the thought that goes into this squad.
 

 

 

The_Brown_Bomber said:

i can see some interesting trends emerging with wave2. some of these have already been mentioned by hothie and others.

1) players will move towards smaller sized squads, especially imperials who will probably opt for 4 or 5 ship squads which include at least two interecepters in the mix.

2) boost will most likely alter the tactics players will commonly use both on attack and defense which will also lead to less flying in formation and more tactical flying with individual ships mostly operationg on their own without supporting cards like swarm (i am still loathe to ditch Howlrunner from my builds but in time i might have to to counter boosting ships which force me to spread out my forces more than in the past).

3) Falcon and Slave1 based sqauds are still an unknown in many ways. I can see how Y-Wings/Ion cannons will be even more useful as both a means to freeze the bigger ships and counter ships with boost, as mentioned in this thread Y-Wings with boost themselves will give rebel players even more options to disrupt at long range (especially if they can abuse ceratin upgrades/abilities which let them gain free target locks in consecutive rounds)

I'm glad you are sensing trends that I have seen as well. It makes me think my little corner of the world is at least a small representation of what others are doing with this game. I ran Vader and Howlrunner at the World Championships, and kept my squad in a 2X3 column, and I think if I brought that squad against a Wave 2 squad, I'd get creamed by anyone with half an inkling on how to fly. I am sad about leaving Holwrunner to collect dust as well, but with the way the game is changing, I have to change my tactics with it. The Imperials now have 2 ships with a base 3 attack, and there are going to be many ships with a base 4 agility. Wave 1 squads will have hard times competing with those.

I have gone to, as you said, squads with ships that can stand alone, flying them to be able to attack from different firing arcs. I think you have to change your style like that or be left in the dust, snuggled alongside your Howlrunner with Swarm Tactics…

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So, the Falcon w/engineer can only acquire 1 TL per round? We have been playing it as 2 TL on the same action phase!  If I am reading this right, my opponent will only be able to acquire one per round?!  Please confirm!

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Two target locks for one target lock action.  Must be on different ships.  

Card reads as, "When you aquire a target lock, you may lock onto two different ships."

 

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hothie said:

Endgame124 said:

 

Given everything that I'm seeing about imperial maneuverability w/ Tie Interceptors (and fewer ships), I'm really thinking I'm going to throw another Y Wing w/ Ion Cannon in my rebel lists at first -- at least until I see less push the limits in lists.  To really spoil highly maneuverable lists, you could go:

Lando, Expose, Weapons Engineer, Milennium Falcon
Gold Squadron, Ion Cannon, R2
Gold Squadron, Ion Cannon, R2

360 arcs of fire everywhere

 

A Rebel list without Xwings or Awings?!?!?! What are you thinking man?!?!?!

The answer to that question is "outside of the box," and I absolutely love it. This and EnglishPete's list will be good counters to the Squints and Awings flitting all about the board.

As for this particular list, you will never use the Weapons Engineer, so i would drop him quickly. I say this because you don't have Dutch handing out target locks like candy, so the Falcon will have to use its own action for target lock. Having the weapons engineer on there means lots of things have to happen:

1. You do not use Expose as your action
2. You do not use Evade as your action, since you also have the Millenium Falcon title card in your squad.
3. You do not use Focus as your action
4. You are not stressed
5. You do not collide with another ship
6. You do not collide with an asteroid
7. Given all of the above factors, you then can perform a target lock
8. After performing said target lock, you then do not USE it this combat round
9. Next round, You do not use Expose as your action
10. You do not use Evade as your action
11. You do not use Focus as your action
12. You are not stressed
13. You do not collide with another ship (which have now all moved since the last round)
14. You do not collide with an asteroid
15. The ship that you previously target locked has not been destroyed
16. You then can perform another target lock on another ship. THIS is where your Weapons Engineer comes into play.

For me, I'd say he's a waste of points for you, especially without Dutch. If you're going to change one of your Gold Pilots to Dutch, I'd say drop the MF title card and Expose. Then the Weapons Engineer might actually work better for you.

Also, don't get me wrong when I say this will be a good counter. It will render the defensive aspects of Boost useless, and the ion cannons will slow ships down, but you're still running 3 ships with a 1 agility, and offensively, you're really not going to scare anyone. So, I don't think it will necessarily win much, but I love the thought that goes into this squad.
 

 

 

The_Brown_Bomber said:

 

i can see some interesting trends emerging with wave2. some of these have already been mentioned by hothie and others.

1) players will move towards smaller sized squads, especially imperials who will probably opt for 4 or 5 ship squads which include at least two interecepters in the mix.

2) boost will most likely alter the tactics players will commonly use both on attack and defense which will also lead to less flying in formation and more tactical flying with individual ships mostly operationg on their own without supporting cards like swarm (i am still loathe to ditch Howlrunner from my builds but in time i might have to to counter boosting ships which force me to spread out my forces more than in the past).

3) Falcon and Slave1 based sqauds are still an unknown in many ways. I can see how Y-Wings/Ion cannons will be even more useful as both a means to freeze the bigger ships and counter ships with boost, as mentioned in this thread Y-Wings with boost themselves will give rebel players even more options to disrupt at long range (especially if they can abuse ceratin upgrades/abilities which let them gain free target locks in consecutive rounds)

 

 

I'm glad you are sensing trends that I have seen as well. It makes me think my little corner of the world is at least a small representation of what others are doing with this game. I ran Vader and Howlrunner at the World Championships, and kept my squad in a 2X3 column, and I think if I brought that squad against a Wave 2 squad, I'd get creamed by anyone with half an inkling on how to fly. I am sad about leaving Holwrunner to collect dust as well, but with the way the game is changing, I have to change my tactics with it. The Imperials now have 2 ships with a base 3 attack, and there are going to be many ships with a base 4 agility. Wave 1 squads will have hard times competing with those.

I have gone to, as you said, squads with ships that can stand alone, flying them to be able to attack from different firing arcs. I think you have to change your style like that or be left in the dust, snuggled alongside your Howlrunner with Swarm Tactics…

I think the plan here is Turn 1 target lock ship A and also Ship B. you shoot at ship a and leave targetlock on ship b. Turn 2, you expose and fire while target locked on ship B. In my head Im with Hothie, I dont think all those upgrades will be worth it due to the crashing like nature of the large base though having options is nice (even though its a tad expensive). However, when I first saw Horton, I thought he was over priced (I still think Marak is) and Ive come to the conclusion its not worth knocking till its been tried. 

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Ah, OK, my bad.

"You may maintain 2 target locks (only 1 per enemy ship)"

I understood that to mean you had to perform the Target lock action twice (or be given one from Dutch).

"When you acquire a Target Lock, you may lock onto two different ships."

I was reading that wrong. I was reading that as after you already have one, you may acquire another one on another ship, not as when you acquire the first one, you can immediately have another one.

OK, Nevermind then.

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I don't think that the Falcon in particular is meant to be played like some have suggested, to get it in the middle and jam up other ships.

To me it works like Brave Sir Robin from Monty Pyhton, it bravely runs away.

It really does work like the ship should in the movies. It's a smuggler ship, not a head to head dogfighter. Most of the time it is supposed to be using its defensive capabilities to escape the hordes of TIEs attacking it. And its speed and elusiveness.

If possible, it should flee to the edges, to the rear of the enemy, and snipe from behind as it flees.

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Something else I learned today, which further emphasizes that the YT is much better than the Firespray:

I played a Firespray today (don't ask why I'm still trying to make them viable, because i don't know). Our game got down to my Firespray vs his YT. We got into a turning battle. I had the edge of the board in front of me, and he was in my blindspot. He shot, I didn't. I then turned so as to avoid the dge of the board, he turned and is still in my blind spot. He attacked, I didn't. I then turned to avoid an asteroid. He turned as well to stay in my blind spot. He attacked and finished me off.

The 360 firing arc of the YT makes it by far a better ship. The blind spots combined with the large base just added more nails to the coffin of my firespray.

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hothie said:

Something else I learned today, which further emphasizes that the YT is much better than the Firespray:

I played a Firespray today (don't ask why I'm still trying to make them viable, because i don't know). Our game got down to my Firespray vs his YT. We got into a turning battle. I had the edge of the board in front of me, and he was in my blindspot. He shot, I didn't. I then turned so as to avoid the dge of the board, he turned and is still in my blind spot. He attacked, I didn't. I then turned to avoid an asteroid. He turned as well to stay in my blind spot. He attacked and finished me off.

The 360 firing arc of the YT makes it by far a better ship. The blind spots combined with the large base just added more nails to the coffin of my firespray.

The general idea is to try and fly away with the fastest movement possible then pelt targets with your rear arc.Either way, i feel strongly that the Firespray and YT should swap maneuver dials

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