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The Octagon

Creating Daemon weapons

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By that logic, should a character be allowed to apply Strong-minded to resisting persuasion tests, because someone with some smidgeon of psychic potential is trying to influence their mind? And, furthermore, if this is is so psychic in nature as to count as a psychic power, why can Khorne-aligned people do it?

No. Someone trying to convince you of something, unless actively using a power to do it, isn't affecting you with psychic powers. You're grasping at straws there. The Daemonic Mastery test is an entirely different matter. Its a sorcerous ritual, in the psychic powers chapters, affected by Psy Rating. Even Khornites are allowed to do rituals and use warp-infused powers and abilities, just not "be a sorceror/psyker". Its hypocritical, but that's how he is. A Khornite just wouldn't be allowed to use his full psychic force, but they aren't blanks: would those even be able to perform it when their mere proximity can screw with the warp?

Or maybe because they didn't want Daemons to add their psy rating to the test. We can guess the motivations of the developers all we want, but at the end of the day you don't, by the rules of the book

Little choice but to try to guess at the motivations when asking whether or not such a thing was intended or forgotten. We already know its not as such in the book. The "effective" psy rating is a good point though, its possible that it wouldn't be allowed as a result. If errata or changes [next game or whatever] happened to allow daemons their PSY, that would definitely need to be answered as a result.

Yet on that table listing the modifiers there is mentioned neither psy rating nor binding strength. And with no overarching rule capping modifiers to 60, you're conjecturing here

Despite its placement, Page 241 seems to be pretty definite. "If a situation calls for two or more bonuses or penalties, simply combine all modifiers together and apply the total to the appropriate Characteristic. The maximum total bonus that can be applied to a test is +60. Conversely, the maximum total penalty that can be applied to a test is –60." Also in Broken Chains page 10: "The maximum modifier that can be applied to a Skill Test or Characteristic Test is +60 or –60."

This ain't conjecture. Its ONE test, with the +/- 60 limit, to which -seperately from the standard summoning because weapons are what have a binding strength to them [and daemonhosts, I know, but they're not in the book]- is added the weapon's binding as an extra penalty. 5-22 is also summoning modifiers there for the purpose of that specific ritual.

You're probably supposed to use those, not the standard mastery test, but the wording has once again been too weak and makes it look like you add both together, making the capturer's +60 more or less guaranteed. The Daemon's not getting binding strength against his will till he's bound in the weapon though. Binding only exists in a completed daemon weapon's attempts to take over.

 

edit: I'd made a gigantic quote block. That's no good.

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Well, this escalated quickly!

Let me do a quick outline of all the stuff I did to convert the demon into a glorified butter-knife. 

Prior to the session I did quit a lot of research into what I could do to tip the odds in my favor, going as far as emailing FFG about  traits and talents that help with daemonic mastery. I soon decided that getting the mastery talent was the best bet, so I went forward trying to increase the degrees of success I'd get from it.

My chars stats were something in the region of 41 willpower and 40 int, with unnatural intelligence (2) and unnatural willpower (1), gained from best quality cranial implant (or whatever it is in this game) and the Mark of Tzeentch.

So, first come the summoning modifiers, which are ALSO used for the mastery test.

+30 True Name known, gained from a book wrested from some Adeptus fools. Got a bunch of corruption reading the book

+30 Mark of Tzeentch - Because, we love to mess with our "friends"

+20 Devoted to Tzeentch

+10 Rules of Sympathy ("Some lit candles" being mentioned as a hallmark of Tzeentchian rituals. I think he/she/it prefers lavender scented ones)

+5 For psy rating of 1

So that comes out as +95 total, which, for the summoning bit, gets capped at 60. 

Then comes the actual binding ritual, which comes directly with a -60 penalty, so before factoring in the nastie we're binding, I had a +35 modifier to the test, as it was also modified by the summoning ritual modifiers. 

The binding ritual is further modified by the stuff listed in table 5-22:

-25 Infamy of the Lord of Change

+10 Best quality weapon

So the total modifier for this is +15, which with a intelligence score of 40 and a skill level of +50 means I'm eligible to use the mastery talent, which results with a base int bonus number of DoS. Then we begin figure out how we can get the binding level as high as possible:

6 Base number of successes

1 from Unnatural Intelligence

2 from my pals assisting in the ritual

So that's a 9 and after rolling a few additional DoS I ended up at my goal level 16.

Now, this binding level of 16 might be considered a bit of an overkill, since I'll be using the summoning ritual modifiers (let's call it +60), I'll be rolling against a total skill of ~100, whereas the demon is pretty much out of luck.

The final result of the binding is a Demonic best quality force sword with sorcerous force-power: 1D10+21 Pen 16, including my Psy rating of 4 and SB when I stomp around in my power armor. Factoring in the sorcerous force, which gives the force weapon effect using the demon's WP (80), we can pretty much assume that if I hit something, it's gonna have a bad time.

As to the GM letting me off easy - that could be. The demon didn't use it's vast array of powers to resist me, in fact we only heard a disembodied voice crying "Just as plaaaanneeeeeeeeeeeeeeeed" as the demon was sucked in to the force sword. The demon has also been strangely quiet, possibly pouting.

A few sessions later I've yet to use the sword in any meaningful manner, apart from trying to intimidate some people by chopping their friend in two. As I said the campaign is more about plotting and scheming than action.

M

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Reverend mort said:

All in all, pretty mild work for what a dedicated Tzeentchian bastard can do. Once you reach the mid-game and higher, a Tzeentch Psyker can walk around with unnatural willpower +20 without much issue, for more or less the entire day, every day. Which, for a psyker, is helluva lot scarier than having a +8 damage force sword. Hell, get that guy a regular force sword and he's outdoing the daemon by about 8d10's worth of armor and toughness bypassing death.

Hmm, Unnatural willpower(20) sounds interesting. How do you figure that out? The psyphon-power is pretty much capped at +4, if you inflict the maximum 20 points of willpower damage. Any other powers?

 

M

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+30 Mark of Tzeentch - Because, we love to mess with our "friends"

+20 Devoted to Tzeentch

I'd assume the bonus of the mark includes the devotion bonus - just like you wouldn't say that in ranged combat in the dark (-30) your enemy would also be in shadow (-20 -> -50), those bonuses would likely overlap.

 

Hmm, Unnatural willpower(20) sounds interesting. How do you figure that out? The psyphon-power is pretty much capped at +4, if you inflict the maximum 20 points of willpower damage. Any other powers?

Presumably, you combine Boon of Tzeentch and Protean Form (Pushing Protean Form is really, really not advisable). Note, however, that you lose the latter power should you be stunned by the Boon (can't spend the free action to sustain it).

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Cifer said:

I'd assume the bonus of the mark includes the devotion bonus - just like you wouldn't say that in ranged combat in the dark (-30) your enemy would also be in shadow (-20 -> -50), those bonuses would likely overlap.

Presumably, you combine Boon of Tzeentch and Protean Form (Pushing Protean Form is really, really not advisable). Note, however, that you lose the latter power should you be stunned by the Boon (can't spend the free action to sustain it).

Sounds plausible, but since it hasn't been covered in errata etc. I took it as written. To my benefit.

Too bad Protean Form is beyond my reach, my willpower will max out at 46. My character is a renegade sorcerer.

M

 

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Kbobsky said:

Too bad Protean Form is beyond my reach, my willpower will max out at 46. My character is a renegade sorcerer.

 

You only had a starting willpower of 26?!

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Its possible, but requires really sticking to your guns about wanting to be a Sorcerer despite everything.

Starting WP is 30. Least you can roll is 2.

Then, you pick or roll Beauty, Dread, and Nihilism, for -4, -5 and -3 respectively.

This gives you a minimum of 20 for a very, very unhappy sorcerer.

If you really had to shoot off your own foot, 18 if doing the alternate "100 point distribution" and you purposefully put 0 in there.

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The summon, daemonic mastery and binding tests aside (which are all doable, add Glimpse for even more bonuses assuming the psyker actually had decent PR), I know what the major issue is, and I've also got a few question marks.

First of all, Best Craftmanship Force Sword? Assuming that was a Wought for Purpose item (i.e. crafted for the purpose of containing a daemon) it would take 3 years to craft it going by the table on page 200. If it was a Legacy of Slaughter item, then the GM is an ass for letting you find one so easily (personally I'd probably say there would not be one, or you'd have to kill someone really powerful to get possession of it. Hell, it's a Compact of its own).

Now, the second issue I've got, or well, the major one, is that the GM made it so totally underwhelmingly easy to summon a greater daemon. Sure, you did not possess the ToB or the ritual within on how to summon one, but still? Look at the cost and effects and such of the ToB ritual. If none of that even remotely happened when you performed that ritual, something is very wrong. Summoning a greater daemon isn't like summoning a bloodletter or anything. It's a massive event, with massive consequences when it's a succeess or failure. As demonstrated by the ToB ritual.

So yeah. Who cares about the tests or how much they were succeeded with. They're not hard. It's the ritual itself that's the problem.

Oh and what's the point of having a LoC in a weapon with binding strength of 16? Such a waste.

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If such an item[-90] with devotional icons and true name[-10 each] is Wrought for Purpose, you're looking at a total of -110: more than enough to counter Tech-Use+30 and a Combitool while still being capped at -60 on the test. Even with two assistants and an Infamy point's +10 added to the deal, we're at -40, which makes for very good odds of having done nothing but waste the last three years. Not to mention that the materials that would probably involved in such an attempt could be quite spectacular. Its not impossible though.

 

As for the test: The Tzeench one is the easiest in terms of requirements if just multiplying the required resource costs by 100, as it normally grants +20 to the phenomena test instead. You certainly don't want to get stunned though from either its showing up or the two perils rolls automatically granted for the act, as that would prevent you from attempting the daemonic mastery test.

 

Dangerous results [anything that gives the Daemon a round or more to start acting, instead of leaving him dealing with your mastery test immediately]

Gibbering: Can stun, Warp Burn DOES stun, Psychic Concussion knocks you unconscious outright AND could stun people in 3d10 meters that might have been able to take over the job of binding, Anything with Falling Damage if high enough could cause criticals or leave you prone, which may, or may not, lose you part of the full-action you need to do the mastery test when it appears…

Soul Sear: Another questionable one. If you're locked out using any psychic powers for an hour, are you still allowed your PR to mastery? Common sense and reason would say no… but neither of those are RAW.

Locked In leaves you catatonic, Chronological Incontinence could leave you reappearing safe, but wondering why everyone's in pieces and where'd the daemon go… Vice-Versa either is either not a problem here, or screws you big time depending on if the ritual requires specific places and "Bob who's like a servitor but dumber" suddenly has to try to master it…

Psychic Mirror… an annoyed GM might decide "Daemon Summons YOU", though otherwise its one of the preferred results here.

And the only thing guaranteed "safe" at 68+ is Reality Quake, as you only have to deal with damage suffered.

 

The rules are clear: You should make OTHER PEOPLE summon these things for you. People you can afford to lose. Preferably people you don't like.

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Terraneaux said:

Kbobsky said:

Too bad Protean Form is beyond my reach, my willpower will max out at 46. My character is a renegade sorcerer.

 

You only had a starting willpower of 26?!

Yes. My character concept evolved along the way quite heavily. Quite fitting for a follower of the Changer of Ways, no?

M

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Actually, you can't make a Wrought for Purpose Best Craftmanship Force Sword as it exceeds the -60 modifier and is therefore impossible to create. So the GM let you find a Legacy of Slaughter BC Force Sword?

Oh well, I suppose I shouldn't be surprised considering he was so nice as to give you a free greater daemon to bind into it as well. Lucky him it's not a combat heavy campaign and the weapon was in the hands of a warptime sorcerer.

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I guess I must bow my head in shame: I have misunderstood some rules, even after re-reading them a bazillion times. 

Even though my weapon falls into the "Legacy of Slaughter" -category, I don't think the rules themselves … rule out my approach. It is against the spirit of the thing, though. The force sword was gained through a straight acquisition roll. I think my infamy was somewhere in the high 60s, so it was no problem, especially since I've been using the trading rule to my benefit.

I agree that I was let off lightly, and the most obvious reason for that is the fact that there isn't much I can do with the sword to unbalance the game. Our campaign plot covers the whole Malfian subsystem, so a single guy with a powerful weapon isn't that much use, especially since we have a metagamy agreement to keep things that way. Ofcourse I could don my power armor and jetpack, scoot off to destroy the leader of our current opposition, but what fun would that be?

As to the 16 binding strength being a waste of a LoC… well, I dunno. I could reasonably have strained out another power for the weapon, but then it would have become very hard for me to control. I mean, I don't really know how it could have been more powerful that it already is. Ofcourse some of the Tzeentchian abilities give non-combat uses, too, which would have been nice. It already does ~25 points of damage with an insane penetration, and a further bazillion points of damage for the Sorcerous Force -ability. 

My low willpower, I rolled poorly on that stat, and decreased it by a further 5 points with Perfection and Wealth. As I said, my character concept has changed quite a bit. That's not been a problem, really: the low willpower has lead to interesting and amusing situations in-game. Such as my character going sex-crazy in a slaaneshi orgy of my own devising. In my defence I have to say the couch was looking really sexy. As to the psychic powers, with my current PR of 4, a psionic focus etc. I have a pretty decent power score, and I can always use infamy points to re-roll it and increase DoS if I must. I have also used Divination powers, which are ofcourse based off Psyniscience.

All in all, it's been a fun campaign, even if the rules and flavor of BC isn't really that well suited to corrupted Imperials plotting in Imperial space. It's more about a chaos wonderland, where warbands traipse around, slapping planets around.

This is my defence, and I stand by it. Atleast until you point out more flaws in my reasoning. 

M

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Well if that's what you really want…

*Going for Sorcerer with low willpower and downing it further is kinda like making a Havoc/Devastator that refuses to use anything other than his fists. Not power-fists, not mono-fists, and certainly not talent-or-mutation-upgraded fists, just the normal, penalized unarmed damage one puts out. "Then WHY a Sorcerer if that's not what you want to be" certainly comes to mind

*If hard to control was a worry [and with those stats it should] and actual weapon power not so important, why a greater daemon, whom even with the binding strength still has a 21% chance; 5% lower than your own base? There's plenty of daemons that'll be completely blocked off with a 0 with half as much binding.

 

At least you're focusing on the perception-based divinations: You'd really be talking about a "throwaway" character if you were pushing doombolts on this guy.

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Kiton said:

Well if that's what you really want…

*Going for Sorcerer with low willpower and downing it further is kinda like making a Havoc/Devastator that refuses to use anything other than his fists. Not power-fists, not mono-fists, and certainly not talent-or-mutation-upgraded fists, just the normal, penalized unarmed damage one puts out. "Then WHY a Sorcerer if that's not what you want to be" certainly comes to mind

*If hard to control was a worry [and with those stats it should] and actual weapon power not so important, why a greater daemon, whom even with the binding strength still has a 21% chance; 5% lower than your own base? There's plenty of daemons that'll be completely blocked off with a 0 with half as much binding.

Well, it all comes down to power levels, doesn't it? There's lots you can do as a psyker without being a planet crushing megabrain. My character is all about versatility in a manner which serves me in this campaign. Telekinesis and divination for utility, Warp Vortex and Warp Time for other stuff - neither of which I've had a cause to use as of yet. Multiple game sessions will go without anyone having to roll initiative in anger.

How do you figure out those percentages? Binding level 16 comes to -80 penalty for the demonic mastery test for the daemon. Even with my lowish willpower, the bonuses I have mean there's pretty much zero chance of me losing control.

The reason I went with a greater demon is.. that I could.. and the end product is that much more powerful with everything calculated off the LoC's unmodified willpower bonus. Also, the infamy bonus on the daemon weapon power roll means I could get the sorcerous force -ability for the weapon.

M

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Kiton said:

? Because a test can't be at more than + or - 60.

Well, it still lands the LoC at rolling against daemonic mastery at -60, whereas I have +60.

By the way, not trying to say it isn't so, but does anyone remember the page where it says you can only have a total modifier up to -+60. I know tables have that listed explicitly, but where's the generic case? I'm sure it's somewhere in the book, but I couldn't find it at a quick browse.

M

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I'd suspect most people would point to page 241. It's listed in regards to combat and attacking though.

"If a situation calls for two or more bonuses or penalties, simply combine all modi?ers together and apply the total to the appropriate Characteristic. The maximum total bonus that can be applied to a test is +60. Conversely, the maximum total penalty that can be applied to a test is –60."

For the case of the Daemonic Mastery Test, the Summoning Ritual Modifiers table lists net modifiers of -60/+60 as limits, which you technically could interpret as applying as limits to the defender of the opposed mastery test as well.

Not sure if it applies to skill tests, as I've not seen anything (other than the text under attacking above) that puts a cap on modifiers for those — there probably are none.

It's possible the -60/+60 modifier limits only applies where it's mentioned, which would be like Attacking, summoning ritual modifiers, a table in creating a daemon weapon etc.

If it's an universal modifier limit on ALL tests then it has been omitted in the rules (or I haven't found it).

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The page 241 limitation states all tests, it just happens to be in the combat section.

As I've stated earlier in this thread this is also explicitly stated on page 10 of Broken Chains. Its pretty universal to the system, actually: Deathwatch states it in Final Sanction [dunno if elsewhere].

It will certainly make things difficult on the daemon, but it does mean its chances are not always at 0; particularly if the mastery test were caused by willpower damage, for example. It only needs to be lucky enough to pass the time you fail.

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Doesnt the deamon get a mastery test any time your willpower is lower than it's unmodified willpower? Wouldnt that put it in a constant state of trying to break free? If so, even with just a 1% chance to break free, Id give acharacter with lower willpower an hour tops before they are deamon chow.

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There's no given timetable, since it was probably assumed no one's gonna have willpower quite as low as the more common high-tens to mid-twenties willpower bunch, at least not without taking damage; at which point it would be when you drop that low.

If its a permanent affair, though, we'd probably be looking at a slow [depending on the difference] takeover rather than a sudden "switch-out"?

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Cryhavok said:

Doesnt the deamon get a mastery test any time your willpower is lower than it's unmodified willpower? Wouldnt that put it in a constant state of trying to break free? If so, even with just a 1% chance to break free, Id give acharacter with lower willpower an hour tops before they are deamon chow.

Well oops.

I guess it's time to put the sword on the mantelpiece and never touch it again.

M

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Cryhavok said:

Doesnt the deamon get a mastery test any time your willpower is lower than it's unmodified willpower? Wouldnt that put it in a constant state of trying to break free? If so, even with just a 1% chance to break free, Id give acharacter with lower willpower an hour tops before they are deamon chow.


Seeing as LoC has 81 WP, and max a PC can have is 80 (30 base +10 passions +20 oll +20 advancements), I think it should take modified deamon's WP or you'd never be able to keep LoC in check.

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ShadowRay said:

Cryhavok said:

Doesnt the deamon get a mastery test any time your willpower is lower than it's unmodified willpower? Wouldnt that put it in a constant state of trying to break free? If so, even with just a 1% chance to break free, Id give acharacter with lower willpower an hour tops before they are deamon chow.

Seeing as LoC has 81 WP, and max a PC can have is 80 (30 base +10 passions +20 oll +20 advancements), I think it should take modified deamon's WP or you'd never be able to keep LoC in check.

I dont think you are supposed to be able to keep a lord of change in check.

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Cryhavok said:

Doesnt the deamon get a mastery test any time your willpower is lower than it's unmodified willpower? Wouldnt that put it in a constant state of trying to break free? If so, even with just a 1% chance to break free, Id give acharacter with lower willpower an hour tops before they are deamon chow.

That's a really bad interpretation of the rules for demon weapons.  I mean, it makes sense if you're coming from the angle of being unfairly punitive towards your players, but the rest of us don't run our games like the unholy lovechild of the worst aspects of Gygax and Wick.  

 

In any case, technically one only has to make a test if one's willpower falls below that of the demon.  If it's already below, then you're golden.

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Terraneaux said:

Cryhavok said:

Doesnt the deamon get a mastery test any time your willpower is lower than it's unmodified willpower? Wouldnt that put it in a constant state of trying to break free? If so, even with just a 1% chance to break free, Id give acharacter with lower willpower an hour tops before they are deamon chow.

That's a really bad interpretation of the rules for demon weapons.  I mean, it makes sense if you're coming from the angle of being unfairly punitive towards your players, but the rest of us don't run our games like the unholy lovechild of the worst aspects of Gygax and Wick.  

 

In any case, technically one only has to make a test if one's willpower falls below that of the demon.  If it's already below, then you're golden.

You do realize that part of the GMs job is to prevent players from abusing the system to break the game? In the case of the person who did this, it did not break the game because wielding a glorified toothpick would have had an equal impact on his game. My games, and I suspect many others as well, would have thier games severly impacted by the ability to bind greater deamons willy nillly. I do not let my players break the game and if they try they will face the concequences… With will be more interesting than "rocks fall you die."If your games would not be broken by such things, or if you and your players would not get bored after realizing the only thing in the universe more powerful than them are gods, more power to you, have fun your way. In my games greater deamons are powerful and terrifying entities that would likely have aranged your death long before you even had a chance to stuff it in a sword, they are proactive forces. They are not reactive obstacles that wait for people to stuff them in swords. My players expect to be part of a proactive universe that does its own thing until they affect it. They are smart enough not to screw with things they cant handle. If you think that having a being one step removed from godhood actually able to defennd itself is unusually punitive, then I am glad we do not play together.

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