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Hrathen

Can you play a Jedi

350 posts in this topic

William Starbrand said:

But we seem to be missing the biggest part of this whole silly argument, the game seems to be taking place during the time period of Episode 3 to Episode 6, where the Empire is at the height of it's power and the Rebellion is just starting to be able to fight back and ther are no JEDI because the have been hunted to the point of extinction.

Quite a few of the expanded works show numerous exceptions - Jedi remnants (some quite powerful) that hid out in the fringes of the Empire. That's the exact kind of setting that this game gives to us, yet these possibilities have been pushed aside. It's not because these characters are inappropriate to the setting, it's because FFG is not yet comfortable enough to put out their full-on Jedi force rules. Hence their 'not yet' answer to the question. It's also an answer that assures that they can pump out another core rulebook since many SW fans would like to see Jedi in the game.

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Here's the issue as I see it:  Jedi are powerful because the media we have of Jedi shows them as such.   They can do things that a 'normal' can't.  Now, in the beta we had access to the force sensitive exile, and it provided some really nice advantages to those who had access to the force but didn't necessarily have the proper training… training.. that could be the key word right there.  After all, Yoda did say:   "Only a fully trained Jedi Knight, with the Force as his ally, will conquer Vader and his Emperor"

The key is training.  Jedi as I see it are not any more powerful than any other character of equal skill level.   The thing is, Jedi train their ENTIRE life, starting from a very young age.  The Jedi we see as adults have, in game terms, accumulated a lot of xp and spent it to build up their skills and talents.  

An average Jedi could very well have 500 xp invested into their appropriate talent tree when it comes out.   This would make them very good at what they do.  Much  like a blaster for  hire type character or a combat pilot will be good at what they do. 

The force, as we have seen in the beta does have a number of abilites that upgrade the dice in your pool, or increase the difficulty.  This mimics what we've seen in the movies, with Luke firing the proton torpedoes that destroyed the DEATH STAR, and Anakin's ability to podrace.  Even the ability to deflect shots with a lightsaber can be done (deflect, not redirect) - and this is with what is in the beta, and most likely in the CORE book.

Now, I hope, when the Force and Destiny book comes out, it details how to run a Jedi or other powerful force user campaign, and can blend seemlessly into an existing campaign.  The latter is the key, as to make Jedi not overshadow the other players, they have a similar experience point total but their points will be focused heavily on the force and Jedi related talent trees.   

So, while a Jedi character could be very focused on make a lightsaber wielding, bounty hunter defeating, force using machine, they are limitied.  A colonist/doctor with the same 500 experience is going to be extremely good at what THEY do.  From what I've seen and read of Jedi they are jack of all trades t ype characters.  They can do a number of things competently, often aided by the force.  But a focused character, such as the doctor example, should always be better.   Now if a Jedi then spent another 500 xp to get the same talents/skills as the doctor, and the doctor focused his next 500 at say, being a bounty hunter, then the jedi/doctor character should be better at medical stuff with the force aiding him, than the doctor/bounty hunter. 

The point I'm trying to make is that a Jedi character CAN AND WILL, if aided by their force abilites, be better than anyone else, IF they have the same training.  So a Fighter Pilot who spends 100 xp on abilites, and a Jedi who also spend 100 xp the same abilites, the Jedi will be better - the catch is that a Jedi would have to have spend experience on his force talent trees, as well as any Jedi talent trees.   The jedi pilot has to divide experience between being a pilot and a Jedi - the offset, is if they spend experience on the right force talents, it will make them a better pilot, but not so much as to overshadow the dedicated pilot.  This is how it should be.

 

The Force and Destiny book, Age of Rebellion, and Edge of the Empire should seemlessly blend together but there will have to be some stipulations.  A full fledged Jedi, will have earned and spent considerably more expereince than a new character in Edge of the Empire (and possibly Age of Rebellion).  This woudl represent their years of training.  Ideally, full Jedi should be used in a more Mentor role, such as that mimicing a master and padawan.  I really hope that Force and Destiny goes this route - That of a Jedi Knight in hiding teaching the player characters they ways of the Jedi - this makes them they same power level, as new characters with the same starting experience, as characters from the other core books.  However, if you want to be full fledged Jedi running from the Empire, you make your characters with more experience.  This offers two ways to play the game, and an easy way with which to add the newest core book in to an existing campaign.

 

To sum up, Jedi ARE  more powerful than their non-force using compatriots, BUT it is because of their training which, in game terms, they have paid for by having to spend more experience.   By adjusting the experience a starting Jedi character gets, they become anything from a new Padawan, to a Jedi that has been running from the Empire since Order 66.  A Jedi should be better than anyone else when aided by the force, but ONLY if they have the same training.  The force should augment existing skills and training, not be a jack of all trades replacement for this training.    

 

 

 

 

 

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TiLT said:

I. J. Thompson said:

 

Hats off to FFG for taking this approach, in my opinion. :)

 

 

Indeed! This way of making the game solves the problem no other Star Wars RPG has solved before: How to balance Jedi against other types of characters. The answer FFG came up with "you don't". 

That also was WEG's answer. 

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That Blasted Samophlange has it.

A 100XP Jedi *isn't* more powerful than a 100XP non-Jedi.  You just don't see that 100XP Jedi outside of the temple where they're still training, except in the rarest of circumstances.

The idea that Jedi are somehow *innately* more powerful than equally well trained non-Jedi because we mostly see well-trained Jedi, is the same logic that would claim that a Bounty Hunter is more powerful than an equally well trained non-Bounty-Hunter because we watch Jango beat up on Obi-Wan.  (Remember, Jango *won* that encounter on Kamino!)

A Jedi Knight isn't a 100XP starter character.  A Jedi Padawan being sent out into the galaxy at large (still along side his assigned Knight) isn't a 100XP starter character.  The closest we see to a 100XP Jedi is probably the padawan who gets gunned down in sight of Bail Organa when the 501st were storming the Jedi Temple.

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<facepalm>

Some things never change.  Using EotE to create Jedi characters would be like using something like stock DnD 3.5 to run a historically accurate 16th century court intrigue campaign (I've been watching 'The Tudors' on Netflix):  Despite some thematic similarities, it's a very poor fit and not what the system was designed to do.

</facepalm>

The mechanical FR2 cap on PCs in the RAW is intended, and helps to maintain the flavor of the campaign.  Even though some NPCs exceed this value and the book provided some benchmarks for FRs 1-7, it's more for the GM's information than the player's.

This isn't saying you can't.  If you simply have to have Jedi, then houserule something.  I personally like assigning some point cost and adding some obligation cost (A player can increase FR from 2 to 3, gain 20 obligation [Hunted by the Inquisition] and spend 30 points).  You just have to realize that the game isn't intended to support that character type by design.

-WJL

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I think your facepalm is a little off the mark.   The discussion, at least put forth by me, is more about HOW to incorporate Jedi into the same system as the characters from EotE.  It has been stated that the dice are to be used by all three games - Edge of the Empire, Age of Rebellion, AND Force and Destiny.  The fact that we have force powers already shows that the system is designed to do that very thing.  Now, we can agree that as the setting is presented, there are NO Jedi.  I'm cool with this.  But people want to convert characters over, and play Jedi. 

The player base will find a way to do this.

What we know is that some random fringer who finds out they have a connection to the force can do some pretty cool things - BUT.. they are limited by how powerful they can get without a teacher as there are no Jedi.   The Jedi order will most likely be represented by a class - offering a lightsaber skill, and various specialties - possibly, the Guardian, Consular and Sentinal.  These specialties, whatever they may be, will provide a character the ability to increase one's force rating.  Not to mention give a whole bunch of talents for deflecting blaster bolts, jumping, etc, etc.  Everything a Jedi wants to do. 

What I am putting forth is that a Jedi character, if given the same amount of experience as starting Edge of the Empire character, does not represent the examples we see in the media, but more likely a neophyte padawan who has just been apprenticed to a Jedi Knight.  To accurately represent Obi-Wan Kenobi, Anakin Skywalker, and various Jedi at the height of their power, you have to give them more experience.  Just like Boba Fett isn't going to be some super bounty hunter when he starts out.  

 

LethalDose, I think you're wrong when it comes to they system not being able to handle Jedi - the fact is we haven't seen a talent tree for a Jedi Class, so we don't know how they will be represented.  But since the games are supposed to be primarily solo, but able to link together, the should be as compatible as possible.  The easiest and in my opinion, best way is to make a full on Jedi Knight, a character with more experience.  Possibly around 500 or more. 

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@samophange


More likely a starting jedi would still have 100xp but character creation would simply give them X number of ranks in skills and talents by default plus additional force dice.

Then there would probably be some sort of excerpt saying jedi characters are roughly equal to characters with X number of experience.

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That Blasted Samophlange said:

What I am putting forth is that a Jedi character, if given the same amount of experience as starting Edge of the Empire character, does not represent the examples we see in the media, but more likely a neophyte padawan who has just been apprenticed to a Jedi Knight.  To accurately represent Obi-Wan Kenobi, Anakin Skywalker, and various Jedi at the height of their power, you have to give them more experience.  Just like Boba Fett isn't going to be some super bounty hunter when he starts out.  

This is probably the smartest thing that's been said about the whole issue in this entire thread.

Mechanically, Force-users are going to be powerful than a non-Force-user, but that doesn't mean that a "starting tier" Force-user PC has to be drastically more powerful than a "starting tier" muggle PC.

I've been working on a collection of additional Force Specializations, one of which includes a Jedi Initiate*, and it's not inherently any more powerful than being a F/S Exile would be, though a bit more combat-focused than the Force Shaman or Dark Side Devotee that I'm developing, it doesn';t turn the PC into a superhuman warrior… without spending a fairly hefty chunk of Experience.  Much like the way Force Powers in this game work; unless you devote a hefty portion of XP (at least 25 for Move to make a truly functional attack power, not counting any Range Upgrades) you're not going to be that much more badass than a bounty hunter or hired gun or smuggler in a fight.  But one you've sunk a few hundred XP into said specialization and Force Powers, yeah that Force-user is going to be pretty powerful.  But guess what?  They've paid the XP costs to be that powerful, the same XP that their non-Force-using buddies have been spending on boosting Skills and exploring other Specializations.

I did a few "high level" stress tests using PCs that had 200, 300, 400, and 500 bonus XP on top of their usual starting allotments; said bonus XP was treated as Adventure XP in terms of what you could spend it on.  Only at the 400 XP mark did the Jedi PC (using an earlier draft of my Jedi spec) really start to outshine the other PCs in terms of combat, but he was still pretty focused on being a Jedi where the other PCs had pretty much filled out their initial Specializations and had branched out into others, giving them more options.  In a way, this very well matches up to how WEG intended to handle Force-users; yes it was costly to play one, but you traded versatility for power, which at the lower end of the spectrum worked; the problem only came when people had been playing the same characters once a week for months on end when the system was designed with the idea that you'd only play the one character for a few months (one major story-arc) and then set them aside for new characters.  Hopefully FFG can avoid the same problem, and from what my stress-tests showed, they just might be able to pull it off this time.

*So I like having an option to be a Jedi in my Star Wars games.  Sue me.

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That Blasted Samophlange said:

What I am putting forth is that a Jedi character, if given the same amount of experience as starting Edge of the Empire character, does not represent the examples we see in the media, but more likely a neophyte padawan who has just been apprenticed to a Jedi Knight.  To accurately represent Obi-Wan Kenobi, Anakin Skywalker, and various Jedi at the height of their power, you have to give them more experience.  Just like Boba Fett isn't going to be some super bounty hunter when he starts out.  

I totally agree.

When playing warhammer 3 we had a similar problem, rename Jedi -> High Elf mage. The way to tackle it was just in game representing the initial learning periode where the High Elf mage is just a mere apprentice.

Similarly, with the initial SW book, you can play indeed a Jedi, just in its very early learning process.

 

Cheers,

Yepes

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Yepesnopes said:

I totally agree.

When playing warhammer 3 we had a similar problem, rename Jedi -> High Elf mage. The way to tackle it was just in game representing the initial learning periode where the High Elf mage is just a mere apprentice.

Similarly, with the initial SW book, you can play indeed a Jedi, just in its very early learning process.

Cheers,

Yepes

Actually, in WFRP 2nd edition, an Elf Wizard character was still limited to only a single color of magic, but when they reached the fourth and final Wizard career (I think it was called Master Wizard), which for a Human was the pinnacle of spellcasting ability, the Elf would be considered to have finished the equivalent of their Associates Degree and would head off to Ulthaun to start learning the true secrets of magic; this pretty much mean the Elf Wizard's time as a PC was pretty much over.

As I've said to those that whined about how "Jedi weren't playable characters" in EotE (aside from that kinda being the point), there are rules for playing what amounts to an untrained neophyte; simply take the F/S Exile, pester your GM to let you take ranks in Lightsaber as a non-career skill, and then do your level best to actually get a lightsaber.  The best you can hope for currently under the official rules is Padawan-level of ability, which is a Force Rating of 2.

The whole Jedi training regimen that would produce action-capable Padawans is pretty much defunct by the Rebellion Era.  There might (heavy on the might, depending on how close your GM sticks to film canon over the EU) be a rare few Knights and Masters out there willing (the tricky part right there) to train someone in the Jedi arts, but given how much of a negative image the Empire has given the Jedi Knights since the events of the Clone Wars (even painting them as responsible for the three year war as a cover for some grand power-play), said Knight/Master would really have to consider taking on an apprentice to be worth the extensive risk, even if they're making like Obi-Wan and chilling in some isolated in some backwater pocket of the galaxy..

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I will point out that this is my own opinion

I kind of like the fact that EotE doesn't have a full foundation of skills, talents and stats to make full Jedi and that there are only low end Force Sensatives I mean we're supposed to experience the Star Wars Universe mainly between episodes 4 and 5 when the empire still has a grip of the universe and there aren't any Jedi or Force Sensitives (except Yoda, Obi Wan, Vader, Luke, Leia and the Emporor) making it all dark and gritty.

If you think about it after the Clone Wars and the fall of the Jedi the Emporor ordered all and any Force Sensitive be killed.

What Im trying to say is that I feel having a full Force using PC Jedi will take away from the dark grittiness players are suppose to feel.

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The portion of this discussion that is being left out, to me is the most important… The other traditions that did not get "obliterated"… The Fallenassi, Luka Sene (since the Miraluka were mostly just "confined to planet" not destroyed), The Aing-Tii Monks and I believe the Mutakai were all still functioning during the Dark Times and Rebellion Era. So if anything… They should have provided a bit more "material" for force use, just not Jedi… After all, it is important to note that the Fallenassi were powerful enough force users to conceal there entire planet at times! I think that indicates that they could train a "capable" force user. In my opinion, one of the things I like the most about the Rebellion Era is that force users generally HAD to be trained from some other source. The fact that FFG have not even indicated the existance of any other tradition is in itself a bit odd to me. It seems to strip a lot of the "color" that the Force had taken on.

I am a bit saddened that this system passed up so much of the whole "Force" thing… after all that IS what makes Star Wars unique… Not "laser swords" or "ray guns"… It's the Force… And during the Rebellion Era, force users were still getting trained… Just not as Jedi…

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LucianZenlav said:

The portion of this discussion that is being left out, to me is the most important… The other traditions that did not get "obliterated"… The Fallenassi, Luka Sene (since the Miraluka were mostly just "confined to planet" not destroyed), The Aing-Tii Monks and I believe the Mutakai were all still functioning during the Dark Times and Rebellion Era. So if anything… They should have provided a bit more "material" for force use, just not Jedi… After all, it is important to note that the Fallenassi were powerful enough force users to conceal there entire planet at times! I think that indicates that they could train a "capable" force user. In my opinion, one of the things I like the most about the Rebellion Era is that force users generally HAD to be trained from some other source. The fact that FFG have not even indicated the existance of any other tradition is in itself a bit odd to me. It seems to strip a lot of the "color" that the Force had taken on.

I am a bit saddened that this system passed up so much of the whole "Force" thing… after all that IS what makes Star Wars unique… Not "laser swords" or "ray guns"… It's the Force… And during the Rebellion Era, force users were still getting trained… Just not as Jedi…

That all depends on how much FFG wants to deal with writing up all the stuff that has happened based on the EU as opposed to just the Canon material.

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Which… Since Lucas Arts has the final say on anything… makes any product with the "Lucas Arts" label cannon… The other RPG's delt with other traditions… I do not subscribe to the movie vs EVERYTHING ELSE cannon debate… Is it licensed? Yes? Then it is legit cannon material… And frankly I find that debate a bit tired… So much of the BEST Star Wars material was NOT in the movies… Galen Marek "Starkiller" for example… Hands down one of Lucas Arts best character creations… Or the story line for the original Knights of the Old Republic… Much better in terms of a compelling story then the original movie… Which was great… but not because of the story… (Yes, All my own personal opinion)

But really… He (King George) has been such an "iron fist" about licensed material recently that… It is hard to say that products outside the movies are not cannon… From what I understand, it was his personal holding up of some of the later WotC books that caused problems for WotC and led to the end of the partnership… I bring that up because A LOT of material on force traditions outside the Jedi/Sith block were contained in those books… and it sounds like he at least looked them over… and said yes…

But stories aside… The Star Wars universe is in part such an amazing creation because it came to extend so far past the movies… To try and contain it there is to do its very creation a diservice… Even these RPG books sit outside "film only" cannon… So the irony gets thicker…

Explain to me why a licensed product from Lucas Arts is not cannon? I am confused… Did all the rest of us suddenly get creative control of the Star Wars franchise? If George OK's it, I have to believe that in the Star Wars universe… That is the word of God!

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I guess what I am in favor of is a company giving us as much "hard" data (we know the story… why waste pages) and let the players and GM's decide how far into the various "portions" of cannon they wish to get. I do really feel that FFG dropped the ball on The Force and Armor… Both too large of a portion of EVERY aspect of what attracts people to this particular "fantasy" setting, to have been given the cursory treatment thus far shown. Both of those topics are often treated as "after-thoughts" by people taking up the "Star Wars" banner… And later been sorry for doing such…

Remember all the screaming when Star Wars Galaxies came out about no Jedi… You think that will change with pen and paper?! As a company interested in profit… I would NOT bank on that idea… History has already shown it to be a poor choice…

Again mostly opinion (except the Star Wars Galaxies thing… as a playtester… That is all I heard… everyday…)

So… FFG… Fill my RPG books with solid RPG data… I can watch movies… get comics… encyclopedias… wookiepedia… etc. all to find out back story and setting filler stuff… Your job really should be lots and lots of hard numbered gaming data… First and foremost…

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LucianZenlav said:

Which… Since Lucas Arts has the final say on anything… makes any product with the "Lucas Arts" label cannon…

The rules for Canon are Movies first, everything else second, if at all. That has been their (Lucas Arts) rule for a long time.

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There are different levels of Canon in Star Wars, so that if there is a conflict the higher canon generally takes presedence. The only non-canon Star Wars material is some brain meltingly terrible material. I agree that a lot of EU materials are better then the movies. Thrawn trilogy is way better Star Wars then the prequels for sure.

That is until Disney probably drops a nuke on the whole EU in 2015. At that point I will have to cease to support new Star Wars products. Though FFG may be an exception with this game. What little of the beta I played was simply amazing.

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Listen… We sit to play RPG's to make our mark on an imaginary world… That alone stands against "cannon"… I actually heard the story that after watching "Stormtroopers", George made the half tongue in cheek remark to that being what actually happened… I think people are far too attatched to cannon… Remember one of the last Episodes of the Clone Wars (as close to cannon as you can get outside the movies… especially since the first episode WAS A MOVIE… If being "one" of the movies is what it takes to be "cannon")… There was a Wookie Jedi… and no… George did not have a heart attack…

Again my point… Give us rules… Force… Better Armor… Etc… and let the players and GM's decide what weird side of "cannon" matters to them. If you try to launch out the gate killing the things that make you unique… You will get swallowed by the crowd… In the case of "Star Wars" games… This is more true than anywhere… PEOPLE WANT TO COME TO THIS UNIVERSE AND BE JEDI… It is part of the appeal… like it or not… No amount of wishing for "old school Star Wars" is going to change that.

It should be kept in the mind of a game designer that some kids trying this game for the first time may never have seen one of the movies… They may have only played the video games… or seen the cartoons (which have been goin for 5 years)…. The Rebellion Era in Star Wars is like trying to sell most gamers on a "Depression Era American Game"… You just took the best parts out… Sure those of us who grew up steeped in the original trilogy, feel nostalgic for those days… but that is not the whole of the Star Wars reality for most anymore…

This game… seems to almost thumb it's nose at all those other experiences of the "Star Wars Universe"

That said… I do like 95% of what the game has to offer… but their 95% only feels like my 50%… And more importantly… It has been shown… No Jedi… No big sales… 

I do believe that if FFG does not lose heart over slow sales of this edition… That their later ones my be truly great! Great ideas… fun system concepts (mostly… those Force Power Charts are a JOKE! Yes FFG a JOKE! And i'd love to explain) Once they provide a more reasonably full rule set (force powers, better armor, ship building, etc…) they will have a top-tier RPG! They just picked a real tough first step… As history has shown…

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LucianZenlav said:

That said… I do like 95% of what the game has to offer… but their 95% only feels like my 50%… And more importantly… It has been shown… No Jedi… No big sales… 

Based on what numbers? WEG sold D6 Star Wars for over a decade and most of their material didn't deal with Jedi. WotC had the license for a similar amount of time. Both sold well.

If computer games are your model, then they are a bad model as they aren't roleplaying… They are heavily scripted power games (levels, health, power ups. Which are great for what they do.

Even the various X-wing and X-wing vs Tie Fighter games had to make allowances for novice gamers in their design, which is why shields were so effective in those games when the movies showed them being far less potent. (and they sold in record numbers and had no Jedi in them).

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Based on Star Wars Galaxies (just as an example)… Which was roleplaying… And at the time one of the few computer Star Wars games where you could build a hero (which makes it well suited for this conversation)… X-Wing games… Going in you know what your getting… A "niche" Star Wars model… great for telling a specific tale… bad for letting people "get into there place in the universe…"

When people found out they could not be Jedi in Star Wars Galaxies… There was a S***Storm until they changed it… Seriously… Go look back… And in there second outing… They set it smack dab in the middle of the Jedi hayday… They learned the first time…

It's one thing when you are controlling every aspect of the story delivered to a customer… It's another whan you ask them "what role do you really want to be?"

You will not always get "Jedi" as an answer (Mandalorian here)… but you will get it enough that it should not be ignored.

The WEG Star Wars games sold well to Star Wars fans… But not by any real publishing standards… They were fair earners in their time, who were gifted with a die-hard loyalist audience. The system was no White Wolf… let alone D&D, as it did little to nothing to bring in fans of either roleplaying or the movies… Both the White Wolf series and D&D brought new players to roleplaying in numbers WEG Star Wars could never have done… In fact being a life long "Star Wars" nut… I never playerd it… The art was generally bad… and the system was love-or-hate it (I fell into the later)… So none of my friends ever felt intersted enough to learn it.

Most of the Star Wars video games were pre-packaged tales, with little choice as to what "being" you played… When the choice was put out there… People wanted to play Jedi… It is natural… Without Jedi… Star Wars is a relatively poorly written Space Opera… Nothing too special… I do not roleplay to experience "nothing special"….

But… Still I think my point is being missed… Why not give us rules for the Jedi… Other Force Traditions… Maybe even Mandalorian Armor… An Armored Space suit? A lot of Star Wars is missing here… And I miss it… So what if one of those things is Jedi… Lucas pays other people to make stuff up in his world that we can debate the cannon value of… But… I am not asking for money… Just the rules to do it…

Why is that too much to ask? Why is asking for the ability to experience the things that separate my favored "fantasy setting" from other "fantasy settings" a bad thing? It is not… That is the point of these games… The fact that most of you know what I mean when I say: Fallenassi, Mandalorian Armor, Aiing-Tii Monks, Jensaarai (sp?) means the have a peice of the mindshare of this "fantasy"… and deserve to be presented…

So more people can have the experience they wish to have rather then a few….

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You want force and jedi stuff wait for the 3rd book as that is all it will be about. They made a concious desicision to not cram everything in a single book so if not having jedi just kills you wait until the 3rd book is released it's really that simple.

Yes the force and Jedi and Sith are a core part of star wars and yes the EU stuff may be "better" than the movies but the VAST majority of people will have only seen the movies. EU stuff will probably be out in a source book very soon after release and isn't what a core book should focus on because a relatively small amount of the people playing the game will have read any EU material.

The core books deal with the 3 major aspects of star wars 1: Cowboys in space 2: Empire/Rebelion 3: Jedi/Sith other material will come out in source books. I'm personally ok with that.

Star Wars products in general are not sold on any single theme defining them except very broadly. People by Star Wars stuff because it's Star Wars. If you only really love one tiny aspect of it then frankly you're missing out in my opinion.

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Let me start by saying that I may be very contradictory here and if I am, I apologize up front. J The truth is that I am looking forward to this book so that I can test it out and tell a few games revolving the scoundrels of the out rim. Even with the star wars saga edition, I told a few non Jedi tales that were in line with this products theme and they went rather well.

With that said, I believe that FFG’s is making an awful mistake by limiting themselves to such a great extent with this release. At the end of the day, I am sure that the biggest complaint that will come from fans on this board and in reviews outside of its fandom will be the lack of high Jedi adventure. Even my group who has played in a game like this that I have told is vetoing the game because of its Jedi marginalization. (Not because the games I told were bad but because we kind of got that part of Star Wars out of our system) It is not just my group either. The local (large) gaming store I go to told me that they found that many people who did play testing were unhappy with the lack of Jedi (though they liked the rules).

In truth, other than reading on this board (which I did throughout the beta) I have not spoken with anyone who is supporting the None Jedi narrative that EotE is telling. Unfortunately, I strongly agree with the many pro-Jedi posters on this board and on this thread and this is something that I think cannot wait until 2015. That is way too long for such an important aspect of Star Wars in my opinion. (Yes, I know that West End Games did not have a strong Jedi emphasis however, I also didn’t think WEG was very good.)

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I'm not going to argue what is canon and what should be fired out of a cannon as I personally thought the force unleashed was a complete waste of my time.

 The people working on this game, have a very clear vision of what they wanted as a game.  The people working on this version of the game seem to be Star Wars fans, and felt that hey, lets make a game about the Han Solo type of character.   

LucianZenlav, you seem very passionate about what  YOU want in the game and you cite that FFG have left out a lot of stuff and I quote  "Why not give us rules for the Jedi… Other Force Traditions… Maybe even Mandalorian Armor… An Armored Space suit? A lot of Star Wars is missing here…"

I will agree with the fact that they are leaving out Jedi and other force traditions, but the force is still in the book (as far as the beta book shows).  As far as other things that are missing, such as Mandalorian armour, armoured spacesuits, and lots of other gear, well.  The core book isn't out yet.  How do you know what will or will not be in there?   Barring Jedi of course, they could have all the fancy gear one needs.

In my personal experience, for every person who seems to be a Luke Skywalker fan, there is one who is a Han Solo fan.  Now if you go with old story telling cliches about the hero getting the girl, well, that makes Han Solo the hero of the Star Wars movies.  Edge of the Empire is, i feel, trying to get some of the people who enjoy a little show called Firefly.  It's not Star Wars, but it is massively popular - and it features a crew of smugglers, hired guns, and people from all walks of life, just trying to live out in the raggedy edge.  Away from an oppressive government.  This is the game the developers wanted to do first - it's also they easiest.  You get more focus on personal ships, such as freighters and snub fighters.  Blasters, and the like.

Sure, things like the x-wing are going to be left out, but that's because in this time period the game is set, the ONLY x-wings are in the hands of the rebellion.

LucionZenlav you may be jumping to conclusions about the impact the WEG RPG had, and how it didn't sell well by publishing standards.  Which publishing standards are we going by?  The ones that see books such as the god awful twilight series or fifty shades of grey selling well?  Is this the standard?  Because if so, then NO rpg anywhere is selling well.   Also, when the the original WEG books came out, there wasn't as much in the way of Internet.  RPG's are a very Niche market.  They always have been.  Star Wars is a Niche market as well.  So, a Star Wars RPG is a niche in a niche.  A very small group of people are interested in these products.  We as RPG players would like to think that we are legion… but we aren't.  Today there are so many things to grab our attention, being video games, books, youtube cat vidoes, etc.  SO when you say the Star Wars RPG didn't have the numbers in sales or people playing, did you factor in distribution methods, time period, or other quantifiably and imperical data?  Or are you factoring in what you've seen, which will be clouded by how you feel.  You see, I never played the WEG star wars either.   

Much of what you are asking for also seems to be hard codified rules for particular items.  Such as mandalorian armour.   Reading up on Mandalorian armour, it would at best have the superior quality.  Probably, heavy battle armour.  That's it.  This rpg is fairly light when it comes to rules.  What you are asking for may be in the CORE book that ISN'T OUT YET.  

 

My final point here is that, the people working on the RPG are working hard, and have a very limited number of resources available such as space in the final product to include the necessary lore, gear, rules, races, etc.  They have a clear vision on what they want to accomplish with the inital book, which I agree with.  While it would be nice to have everything all at once in a 1200+ page book, it isn't going to happen.  We live in a world where everyone wants everything all the time and right away.   But the reality is this isn't going to happen.  Have patience, there will be official rules for what you want fast enough, and until then the community will build them, or you yourself could be creative and do it.  The book is being written, they layouts are being finalized, it is all but finished.  Arguing about what SHOULD be in there isn't going to change what is.  You must either accept that or move on.

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LucianZenlav said:

Based on Star Wars Galaxies (just as an example)… Which was roleplaying… And at the time one of the few computer Star Wars games where you could build a hero (which makes it well suited for this conversation)… X-Wing games… Going in you know what your getting… A "niche" Star Wars model… great for telling a specific tale… bad for letting people "get into there place in the universe…"

When people found out they could not be Jedi in Star Wars Galaxies… There was a S***Storm until they changed it… Seriously… Go look back… And in there second outing… They set it smack dab in the middle of the Jedi hayday… They learned the first time…

 

Galaxies was a pretty massive $h!tstorm. <opinion>

It was practically impossible to play a Jedi until after they macerated the combat system. <fact>

Galaxies was set in the middle of the Rebellion era, which is approximately the polar opposite of the "Middle of the Jedi heyday." <fact>

-WJL

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LethalDose said:

LucianZenlav said:

 

Based on Star Wars Galaxies (just as an example)… Which was roleplaying… And at the time one of the few computer Star Wars games where you could build a hero (which makes it well suited for this conversation)… X-Wing games… Going in you know what your getting… A "niche" Star Wars model… great for telling a specific tale… bad for letting people "get into there place in the universe…"

When people found out they could not be Jedi in Star Wars Galaxies… There was a S***Storm until they changed it… Seriously… Go look back… And in there second outing… They set it smack dab in the middle of the Jedi hayday… They learned the first time…

 

 

 

Galaxies was a pretty massive $h!tstorm.

It was practically impossible to play a Jedi until after they macerated the combat system.

Galaxies was set in the middle of the Rebellion era, which is approximately the polar opposite of the "Middle of the Jedi heyday."

-WJL

I think the "middle" comment was pointing at the newer Star Wars mmorg The Old Republic. There you can play Jedi, Sith, bounty hunters, etc. But that shows just the slippery slope that I think FFG are trying to avoid. As has been said, you can't have everything out of the gate as the book would be massive. "I want Jedi." "I want Sith." "I want Imperials. " "I want Mandalorians." The list goes on and on. This isn't WotC where they can fire out 15 books in a matter of a few years by rehashing a system already created. This is a new game with new mechanics. I like that they are taking their time, choosing what to focus on, and, it seems, trying to put out a product that will play well.

I am a huge, if admittedly nostalgic, fan of the original trilogy. I saw it first hand too many times to count back in 77 and it definitely left an indelibe mark on me. Han shot first, Boba Fett died, etc. But I am also a fan of Star Wars in general, if not everything that has come out. Whether or not the game includes full on rules for Jedi means little to me as I just want to play in the Star Wars universe more than anything. I was a huge fan of Boba Fett, even though he died, but only when he was unique. Now that he has been Wolverine-ized, he's not so cool anymore to me (same thing happened to Wolverine for me). This game looks awesome and it is playing really well and I like what they have focused on so far. And I look forward to what is coming too.

Anyways, I just hope the game is successful so that FFG can keep putting out products so that most people will get to play their Star Wars one way or another.

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