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Gantz the slaughterer

power fist

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Hi All,

 

in many raffiguration I see many space marines with power fist, wielding a melee like axe or sword….

 

so in this case I can decide if I want to use the power fist or I can use the axe?

if I use the axe I suppose with:

damage 1d10-8e (standard power axe damage)

gaining the x3 unnatural str bonus (from power fist)

and change from unbalanced to unwieldy (from power fist).

 

what do you think about?

 

cheers

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Not at all…

You can use your powerfist with S bonus x 3 or your axe with your normal S bonus.

But you can not wield your axe with the fist.

Have fun!

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I don't know myself…

I can understand the desire to keep it simple (but I'll restate my line: its an RPG, there should be nothing simple about it), and I for one can easily see how munchkins can take it to the extreme. Which is an indicator of the SB+dam system perhaps being a bit too easy to abuse.

But the power fist does provide: a +1 to unatural strength pretty much as long as the fist has power, always ready to use, and can count as unarmed as well as armed (though its unwieldy, rightly so).

I can see how a fist could be used to wield another weapon. Example: a battle brother in my Chaplain's kill-team fired metal storm rounds into melee, then rightous furied taking off my character's arm (wielding the crozius). With no other arm to wield the crozius for the rest of the mission the chaplain used it in his power fist.

Now, I'm not a power-gaming munchkin so I'd not abuse the combo, but I don't think it is outside the realm of possibility. It would only be 3-5 more damage in most cases anyways, but anyone abusing the combo in any of my campaigns would soon find all his weapon's suddenly shaft's suddenly breaking in the middle of combat from the stress the extra strength of the fist gives it. Just like a librarian abusing certain psyker powers would find himself besieged by a sudden acute daemonic intrest and attention from the warp for a while.

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Powerfist can't wield anything exept when shut down and only big things can be grab.

So even if you use your Power fist hand to wield your weapon you won't have the strenght bonus because it is shut down.

If you activate your power fist then the weapon wield will be crushed and never to be used again.

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Thats a really simplistic and, quite honestly, poorly thought out argument. You mean to say whenever the power fist has power running through it your hand is stuck in a death grip of rage? You have to turn it off before you can climb a ladder, grab a ledge, grapple an opponent, or pick anything up? Otherwise your hand is stuck in a closed vice grip?

Sorry, no. That makes no sense at all. Besides the fact your fingers don't need to be super strong to punch someone with super strength, once you turn off the power you wouldn't even be able to open the fingers. Unless of course you mutate your fist to be giant sized, power fists use a waldo system. They aren't gloves. No power = no movement at all.

Using a waldo system, which includes force feedback, a marine would more than easily be able to regulate the amount of force and strength he is using at any point.

So you contend a marine who takes a power fist is not allowed to use that hand at all as long as the power fist is attached? What's the point of having a strength enhancing hand if it doesn't enhance your strength? What about marines tearing apart walls or other items with power fists? Do you really insist its just a weak version of a thunderhammer (at the same cost)? It doubles your strength (2 x 1d10 unarmed damage =/= 2d10? wait, what?) or adds to your unnatural strength… except when you want to use it for strength? Nope, none of that makes sense.

 

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I would imagine the reason you can't use the hand while the Power fist has its powerfield up has something to do with the violent concussive reaction the powerfist has with matter it touches. It would be like holding an axe with exploding Krak grenades. If you shut the fist off, I'd treat it like a mono unwieldy club, and allow its use to hold other weapons. There would be some kind of penalty, probably just the -20 hard to hold things one. The added strength multiplier wouldn't happen, as that is the way a power fists overcharged power field is written into the rules. No powerfield, no multiplier.

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Fairly certain a fist 3 times the size of a normal one and filled with added hydralic and muscle fiber materials will be stronger than your average ham hock.

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A Power Fist cannot be used for anything other than its intended purpose. Attempting to use something in an active power fist will just result in the destruction of whatever that thing is.

BYE

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herichimo said:

Fairly certain a fist 3 times the size of a normal one and filled with added hydralic and muscle fiber materials will be stronger than your average ham hock.

Im fairly certain that a mechanical fist three times the size and power of a normal one and covered in a field of destructive energy is going to be too unwieldy to manipulate something, and would destroy it if you tried. However, you could have your techmarine design and begin field testing a strength amplifying arm that could wield a weapon like you are describing… But a powerfist wont work for it.

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cryhavoc, HBMC, somvone, bigjul, and decessor seem to have it right - when the power field is activated, the powerfist is a fist of doom to whatever it touches…….non-activated, sure you can hold and wield objects in it, like a nice normal gauntlet.  But not in combination.  No no.

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So, you can't touch anything with an active power fist without damaging it? So a marine holding his bolter in one hand and having a fist for his other cannot open a hatch or climb a ladder? What about using the fist to carry a injured marine? That really limits the movement of any marine wearing it. 

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indeed when your powerfist (who is a weapon, and a deadly one btw) is powered you can not open a hatch (you could tear it out of the wall) or climb a ladder usng this hand. As for your fellow SM you won't lift him with this hand neither.

Now if you are sad that a so powerfull weapon isn't that easy to use in an everyday life ask yourself why you put a tank opener on your hand if the only thing you wanna do with this hand is mast*******.

Maybe it is also time for all of you to read the weapon description in the book.

Or maybe you could answer me that one if i fix my powerfist on the weapon of a titan Imperatror does it get US  bonuses when the Imperator hit something????

Please one weapon per hand is really a maximun, powerfist is a weapon so yes you use the power fist or just don't take it.

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Thebigjul said:

indeed when your powerfist (who is a weapon, and a deadly one btw) is powered you can not open a hatch (you could tear it out of the wall) or climb a ladder usng this hand. As for your fellow SM you won't lift him with this hand neither.

Now if you are sad that a so powerfull weapon isn't that easy to use in an everyday life ask yourself why you put a tank opener on your hand if the only thing you wanna do with this hand is mast*******.

Maybe it is also time for all of you to read the weapon description in the book.

Or maybe you could answer me that one if i fix my powerfist on the weapon of a titan Imperatror does it get US  bonuses when the Imperator hit something????

Please one weapon per hand is really a maximun, powerfist is a weapon so yes you use the power fist or just don't take it.

Strange… Because in the Deathwatch core p155 it says the Power Fist has same restrictions as lightining claws do. On p 154 it says no ranged weapons other than thrown. And a -20 penalty to actions requiring manual dexterity. So I guess you can hold stuff with a power fist after all…

 

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I'm going to assume the obvious and say that logically you can turn off the field the fist generates while not turning off the entire fist. Especially in light of rules posted above… And cuz having marines hanging onto Rinos and whatnot with their fist while shooting is just kick ass. 

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I'm pretty sure a power fist's power field and enhanced strength must be activated simultaneously; it's either 'on' (both effects active) or not (the 'standard' power flow makes it a normal gauntlet- but with penalties for size). I've seen pictures of 'inactive' power fists holding stuff, but I've never seen any reference anywhere of a power fist being able to increase strength without also activating the destructive power field.

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Adeptus-B said:

I'm pretty sure a power fist's power field and enhanced strength must be activated simultaneously; it's either 'on' (both effects active) or not (the 'standard' power flow makes it a normal gauntlet- but with penalties for size). I've seen pictures of 'inactive' power fists holding stuff, but I've never seen any reference anywhere of a power fist being able to increase strength without also activating the destructive power field.

I agree I have not seen any rules either way. But the rules for it in DW core indicate you can carry stuff like the claws can. Says use same rules. The info about claws says you retract claws before handling stuff. Based on that I'd have to rule that you can power down the fist in some way. If not it would be difficult to even stand next to another marine for fear of bumping them and incidentally damaging them. And that's just silly. 

Anything in Erratta or old school WD mags that could posdibly clear this up better? 

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come on!  use yer heads, people!  this isn't about min/maxing yer way to the uberestest of uberest goon weapons!!  If you want to powerfist yer way thru everything, play as a dreadnought….ooh, or better yet, be a Titan!  that oughta get ya off!  Cause yer right, power fist be dumb unless i can make it even more powerful….sheesh!

As for table top gaming, the models would have a power fist (alone) in one hand….the only exception is a pair of master-crafted powerfists with bolters built into them; it's unique and belongs to te emaster of macragge…..and that's it…..so sorry….

now, having said all that, if you wanna do what you wanna do in your game, go for it!  have fun with it!  but it ain't in the spirit of the 40k setting, so canon-monkeys like me won't approve of it 'officially'….

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Zappiel said:

come on!  use yer heads, people!  this isn't about min/maxing yer way to the uberestest of uberest goon weapons!!  If you want to powerfist yer way thru everything, play as a dreadnought….ooh, or better yet, be a Titan!  that oughta get ya off!  Cause yer right, power fist be dumb unless i can make it even more powerful….sheesh!

As for table top gaming, the models would have a power fist (alone) in one hand….the only exception is a pair of master-crafted powerfists with bolters built into them; it's unique and belongs to te emaster of macragge…..and that's it…..so sorry….

now, having said all that, if you wanna do what you wanna do in your game, go for it!  have fun with it!  but it ain't in the spirit of the 40k setting, so canon-monkeys like me won't approve of it 'officially'….

I have already quoted the rules straight from Deathwatch core that says you can hold things with the fist. Can't use ranged weapons and fine manipulation tasks are at a -20 penalty. Look on p155. So why am I getting **** from "cannon monkeys" exactly?

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DigitalRedneck said:

Zappiel said:

come on!� use yer heads, people!� this isn't about min/maxing yer way to the uberestest of uberest goon weapons!!� If you want to powerfist yer way thru everything, play as a dreadnought�.ooh, or better yet, be a Titan!� that oughta get ya off!� Cause yer right, power fist be dumb unless i can make it even more powerful�.sheesh!

As for table top gaming, the models would have a power fist (alone) in one hand�.the only exception is a pair of master-crafted powerfists with bolters built into them; it's unique and belongs to te emaster of macragge�..and that's it�..so sorry�.

now, having said all that, if you wanna do what you wanna do in your game, go for it!� have fun with it!� but it ain't in the spirit of the 40k setting, so canon-monkeys like me won't approve of it 'officially'�.

I have already quoted the rules straight from Deathwatch core that says you can hold things with the fist. Can't use ranged weapons and fine manipulation tasks are at a -20 penalty. Look on p155. So why am I getting **** from "cannon monkeys" exactly?

You know I recently looked at the description of a powerfist in the DW core book, and it makes no mention of any strength enhancing gear in the fist itself. It talks about how the enhanced powerfield on it is so strong the weapon underneath is irrelevant. This leads me to believe that it is less of a strength enhancing fist and more like a fist shaped lightsaber, with the destructive effect of the field enhancing the effects of your strength on a blow. This leads me to continue believing that a powerfist with its field deactived does not enhance strength bonus to damage.

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Cryhavok said:

DigitalRedneck said:

Zappiel said:

 

come on!� use yer heads, people!� this isn't about min/maxing yer way to the uberestest of uberest goon weapons!!� If you want to powerfist yer way thru everything, play as a dreadnought�.ooh, or better yet, be a Titan!� that oughta get ya off!� Cause yer right, power fist be dumb unless i can make it even more powerful�.sheesh!

As for table top gaming, the models would have a power fist (alone) in one hand�.the only exception is a pair of master-crafted powerfists with bolters built into them; it's unique and belongs to te emaster of macragge�..and that's it�..so sorry�.

now, having said all that, if you wanna do what you wanna do in your game, go for it!� have fun with it!� but it ain't in the spirit of the 40k setting, so canon-monkeys like me won't approve of it 'officially'�.

 

 

I have already quoted the rules straight from Deathwatch core that says you can hold things with the fist. Can't use ranged weapons and fine manipulation tasks are at a -20 penalty. Look on p155. So why am I getting **** from "cannon monkeys" exactly?

You know I recently looked at the description of a powerfist in the DW core book, and it makes no mention of any strength enhancing gear in the fist itself. It talks about how the enhanced powerfield on it is so strong the weapon underneath is irrelevant. This leads me to believe that it is less of a strength enhancing fist and more like a fist shaped lightsaber, with the destructive effect of the field enhancing the effects of your strength on a blow. This leads me to continue believing that a powerfist with its field deactived does not enhance strength bonus to damage.

Yeah. I could totally see that. It does indeed seem as tho the st bonus has more to do with the energy field than any actual grasping or lifting abilities  The fist does great damage as is. And I'd prob be a **** and rule that using a weapon in that fist would be at the -20 and no st bonus from the fist. It's not real fine manipulation when your swinging a chainsword but I'd say that Melee weapons would still require enough dex that the bulk of the fist would be in the way. But I'd let a marine open the door to a rhino with that hand and not inadvertently damage the rhino tho. And I'd also let a marine carry a wounded Comrad to safety with it. 

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cryhavoc nailed it.  And i agree with the digitalredneck (is there such a thing? ;)  ) - carrying things and opening things, when powered down, ought not to be a problem (so long as a freakishly huge huge gauntlet doesn't introduce it's own inherent problems….)

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Zappiel said:

cryhavoc nailed it.  And i agree with the digitalredneck (is there such a thing? ;)  ) - carrying things and opening things, when powered down, ought not to be a problem (so long as a freakishly huge huge gauntlet doesn't introduce it's own inherent problems….)

Agreed.

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The -20 to fine manipulation should be enough indication about how clumsy the glove is - astartes already suffer -10 while in power armour, so i read this -20 as a stacking modifier, for a -30 total. So unless your marine is exceptionally Agile (talking 60/70+) youll be failing a fair few manipulation rolls and your GM should be narratively describing the clumsy and heavy powerfist causing issues.

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The power fist is so large and heavy, not just because of the power-field generators built into it, but because of all the heavy-duty hydraulics used to strangthen the crushing power of the fingers. If you were to take those out, all you would have is power-fielded fingers, which are not as effective as the alternative (lightning claws). The hrydraulics are where the strength bonus actually comes from, as even with a strong power-field weakening tank armor, it's still tank armor. One should be able to use the additional unnatural strength modifier without the power field, but only when one is using the fingers to crush something or tear it apart. The strength bonus should not apply to overall arm use.

Ex 1: There is a small gap in a ruined bulkhead. You can tell that there are flammable materials leaking over everything on the other side, but it's your only feasible route of escape. The Techmarine is unconscious, and there's not enough time for the Apothecary to revive him, so you can't make use of his servo-arm. The only option is your power fist. However, activating its powerfield greatly increases the risk of setting off the flammable material. Logically you should be able to tear and twist the edges of the gap with the hydraulic might of your powerfist without needing to resort to using the power-field (though it would certainly expedite the widening of the hole).

Ex 2: Your Battle-Brother is pinned to the ground by a large peice of debris. Your power fist may help break it into more manageable chunks, but cannot add its additional strength multiplier to lifting said chunks, and due to its prodigeous weight, should actually work against you, adding a negative madifier to the Strength test. (This should not apply to those using a power fist with Terminator Armor, as the Tactical Dreadnought harness should not only provide a stable platform for the lift, but the rerebrace for the arm with the powerfist would reasonably include additional hydraulics to further facilitate the use of the weapon. Come on, it's Terminator Armor).

As for using another melee weapon in the same hand as a power fist, well, let's look back at an example from the novels:

In the second Night Lords novel, Blood Reaver, the Red Corsairs stormed the Fortress Monastery of the Marines Errant. When they breached the reliquary, Huron Blackheart grabbed one of the two-handed relic power-mauls in his power claw, and stove in the head of one of the reliquary guardians. The power-field for his claw was inactive, and so was the powerfield for the relic maul.

One could use a melee weapon in the power fist-hand, but it would, by necessity, need a long haft that a power fist would be able to firmly grasp (meaning no swords, unless the grip is for two hands). One could not make use of the power fist's power field while doing this or they would destroy the weapon, and they would not be able to make use of any of the special qualities of the weapon being wielded (an Eviscerator wielded in such a manner would be little more than a barbed club). Additional negative modifiers would have be applied, as this set-up would go beyond unwieldy.

This is possible, but would be incredibly stupid to use outside of emergencies, or, in the case of Huron, humiliating the enemy with the inevitability of your victory.

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