Humanity's Shadow - 5th Data Pack

[Toqtamish 3,643]

http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_news.asp?eidn=3857

 

 

[profligate 0]

Hell yes! Broker is back!

[Mejis 2]

profligate said:

Hell yes! Broker is back!

I just had to Google the original card. Nice.

Love the artwork on Foxfire.

[TheRealLeo 0]

Ah man… I loved and hated Broker at the same time. I loved it because it was a nice and easy way to gain good credits. I hated it because I could never figure out the right times to cash in. Playing Runner just went up a notch in strategic difficulty. 

[Hdnggrnchrg 0]

Bernice Mal + ChiLo City Grid. 'Nuff said.

[RanisTheSlayer 0]

Kati just looks like an awful card. I don't know why everyone's so excited about it.

[Messenger2 0]

RanisTheSlayer said:

Kati just looks like an awful card. I don't know why everyone's so excited about it.

We should crunch the numbers and see how it compares to other credit-earning resources in the game.

What I like about this news article is the extra info on HB. A:NR is my first foray into the Android universe, so all its background and fiction stuff I get from this game.

[TheRealLeo 0]

It just occurred to me… Networking removes a tag, and then you can pay a credit to put it back in your hand. I bet it costs 0. Not sure how often I would use that, but probably not very often when considering Crash Space.

Firefox probably initiates a trace, and when successful, can trash a virtual (Ice Carver, Xanadu, The Helpful AI), a link (Rabbit Hole, Access to Globalsec, The Helpful AI), and/or maybe something else? Or maybe it's one virtual or 2 link? Either way, a quick and dirty route to trashing Ice Carver will come in handy for some of my Corp decks.

My guess is that Xanadu will increase the rez cost of all ice by 1, which is mean. If it's anything higher, I'd think it would be overpowered.

[ffaristocrat 2]

Kati is comparable to Magnun Opus efficiency wise if you pump it up a few times before emptying. The more you add to it before cashing out, the better the efficiency rate.  It doesn't require memory or influence so it's a good economic option for everyone.

However, as a resource, it can be trashed by the corp if you get tagged so there's an element of risk there.

[Runix 2]

Messenger said:

 

RanisTheSlayer said:

 

Kati just looks like an awful card. I don't know why everyone's so excited about it.

 

We should crunch the numbers and see how it compares to other credit-earning resources in the game.

 

 

Well, that depends!

If you take the lowest risk option, Kati is not very efficient.  That would be taking a click to add 3 credits one turn, then a click to claim the 3 credits the next turn.  You're getting 3 credits for two clicks, which is obviously much worse than Magnum Opus, which is a very steady 2 credits per click, and also worse than Armitage Codebusting, which is also 2 credits per click (although Armitage is limited use).  It's better than the default of 1 credit per click, but not by much (1.5 credit per click, not taking into account draw cost and install cost).

But the economics change if you let the credits pile up.  If you go four turns in a row using the one click per turn to just add credits, and then claim them all with one click on the fifth turn, you're getting 12 credits for five clicks, or 2.4 credits per click; and that's with a card that doesn't take 2 MUs (Magnum Opus) and isn't limited use (Armitage Codebusting) - and its install cost is a fraction of Magnum Opus's.

Of course, that doesn't take into account the time value of money - four credits on an earlier turn may be worth far more than twelve credits on a later turn.  And it doesn't take into account getting tagged and getting your resources trashed, which isn't really good for the economics of the card . . .

[Thorongil 1]

Runix said:

Well, that depends!

If you take the lowest risk option, Kati is not very efficient.

This is an interesting card in its value and the gamble you take when playing it. Still, I'd think the costs begin before you start using the card. If every card can be converted to clicks -- or at least the economy cards -- then where Magnum Opus is 5 install and 2 clicks per credit afterward, you have to have a total of 14 clicks worth of actions/install before it pays off. 1 click to draw, 1 to install, 5 clicks worth of cost, then 7 clicks at 2 credits each to gain 14 credits over a total of 14 clicks worth of draw, install, cost, and actions.

Armitage Codebusting pays for itself after 6 clicks. 1 to draw, 1 to install, 1 cost, and three uses at 2 credits each.

Kati pays for herself after 9 clicks. 1 to draw, 1 to install, 3 cost, 3 uses to bank 3 credits each, and 1 use to grab 9 credits.

Runix is right that Kati is higher risk, because she's banking so much. But if you continue banking for a large payback, she becomes more efficient than Armitage or Mangum Opus after those first 9 clicks.

Yes, you start with hand of 5 and 5 resources, so it's not always a hard 1-click to 1-credit to sort things out, but those are the baselines that make sense to me. You can't count on having the right cards in your hand, so draw and installation are important considerations.

[Talamare 139]

As usual boardgamegeek forums has done already a ton of calculations based on how awesome Kati is, and some speculations on the other cards as well

[mdc273 29]

What is there to discuss about efficiency and risk?

1 click to load, 1 click to take, 2 clicks - 3 credits. 1.5 credits per click.

2 clicks to load, 1 click to take, 3 clicks - 6 credits, 2 credits per click

3 clicks to load, 1 click to take, 4 clicks - 9 credits, 2.25 credits per click.

4 clicks to load, 1 click to take, 5 clicks - 12 credits, 2.4 credits per click

5 clicks to load, 1 click to take, 6 clicks - 15 credits, 2.5 credits per click

Repeat ad nauseum with increased efficency per click.

It is as good as Magnum Opus in circumstances where you are willing to take only 1 additional action during the turn.

If you try to load it up and use it on a later turn, that's the only time you take a risk.

[Messenger2 0]

mdc273 said:

What is there to discuss about efficiency and risk?

1 click to load, 1 click to take, 2 clicks - 3 credits. 1.5 credits per click.

2 clicks to load, 1 click to take, 3 clicks - 6 credits, 2 credits per click

3 clicks to load, 1 click to take, 4 clicks - 9 credits, 2.25 credits per click.

4 clicks to load, 1 click to take, 5 clicks - 12 credits, 2.4 credits per click

5 clicks to load, 1 click to take, 6 clicks - 15 credits, 2.5 credits per click

Repeat ad nauseum with increased efficency per click.

It is as good as Magnum Opus in circumstances where you are willing to take only 1 additional action during the turn.

If you try to load it up and use it on a later turn, that's the only time you take a risk.

That's 6 turns. We should compare this to the table that records by what turn each Runner faction usually wins. We'll have to factor in how this card can potentially slow them down, especially Criminals who rely on speed and the early game vulnerability of the Corp.

I'm thinking back on the number of times I spent all my clicks in a turn just on money. In such a scenario, how many credits can a Runner store up with both Kati and just by trading clicks for credits? How substantial would that be in preparation of a big run?

[Syphus 0]

mdc273 said:

What is there to discuss about efficiency and risk?

1 click to load, 1 click to take, 2 clicks - 3 credits. 1.5 credits per click.

2 clicks to load, 1 click to take, 3 clicks - 6 credits, 2 credits per click

3 clicks to load, 1 click to take, 4 clicks - 9 credits, 2.25 credits per click.

4 clicks to load, 1 click to take, 5 clicks - 12 credits, 2.4 credits per click

5 clicks to load, 1 click to take, 6 clicks - 15 credits, 2.5 credits per click

Repeat ad nauseum with increased efficency per click.

It is as good as Magnum Opus in circumstances where you are willing to take only 1 additional action during the turn.

If you try to load it up and use it on a later turn, that's the only time you take a risk.

 

There's a lot to discuss about risk. Playing against NBN? This card easily becomes risky as hell.

[ErroCal 0]

One of the nicer things about Kati is the Neutral Faction.  You can add some decent credit power to any Runner Faction without using up your Influence on other Faction specific credit makers.  ANY resource is risky when you're tagged, if you're carrying 2 or 3 copies in your deck it's no more risky than any other option.

[photogasm 15]

A smart corp will wait until the Runner loads Kati up with creds then ices her in a dark alley somewhere on a cold, rainy night.

[Messenger2 0]

photogasm said:

A smart corp will wait until the Runner loads Kati up with creds then ices her in a dark alley somewhere on a cold, rainy night.

That would first require tagging the Runner. NBN is the one most likely to pull it off, but harder for other Corps.

Just sayin', mind you. It's definitely the smart play against Kati.

[photogasm 15]

Messenger said:

photogasm said:

 

A smart corp will wait until the Runner loads Kati up with creds then ices her in a dark alley somewhere on a cold, rainy night.

 

That would first require tagging the Runner. NBN is the one most likely to pull it off, but harder for other Corps.

 

Just sayin', mind you. It's definitely the smart play against Kati.

 

Well of course it does.  I'm not sure I understand the point of your comment

[Messenger2 0]

It's not really something factions/decks that don't tag can do, such as Haas-Bioroid or Jinteki. Tagging the Runner means Neutral and out-of-faction cards for them.

There's also the window of opportunity to consider. A Runner that's tagged is probably going to get rid of the tag ASAP; what's most likely to happen in games is the Corp tagging the Runner hopefully while Kati's loaded up and then immediately trashing Kati.

[Lord Jure 0]

 

 

New cards, new cards!

Is it just me or some of these are freaking amazing? I can already see people yelling SURGE! every time they play Surge. And that beautiful Jinteki ice… Seriously, next pack looks mighty promising.

[Nerdelemental 0]

Hmm…rework seems spectacularly lame. Getting an agenda back in the deck might be valuable (when I cannot deal with it), but never enough to warrant putting three of these in the deck. 

Any circumstances to up its playability I cannot see?

 

"This ice sucks." okay. That's amusing.