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MagusRogue

Lightsabers (oh no, not another one of these threads?!?!)

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Ok, I do like how much they nerfed the 'sabers, while making them insanely damaging instruments fo cutting-off-arms loveliness. One thing that DOES concern me, and probably is far too premature considering Force and Destiny isn't slated for another 2 years, is that lightsabers are unmoddable. Even not counting TOR, KOTOR, Saga, etc, UE has different modded lightsabers. different hilts and crystals and junk.

Yeah, I know, we're years before the actual Jedi stuff, but the books are spose to be combined, so if lightsabers 2 years later get hardpoints, the last two core books are now invalid due to wrong stats.

Just wondering if anyone else had these considerations?

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Oh no, not another one of these…oh.

I could see this problem fixed by a talent. "Lightsaber Artisan" or whatever. "Lightsabers are now considered to have hardpoints for you equal to your ranks in Lightsaber Artisan." Easy-peasy, Jawa-squeezey. 

Also to consider is that it looks like these 3 games that have been announced (Edge of the Empire, Age of Rebellion, Force and Destiny) are different core games, not just different sourcebooks of the same game. Basically what I'm getting is that it's the same system, but with slightly different rules guiding the gameplay for each Core game so as to provide the best possible feel as to the intended theme. So, in Edge of the Empire, lightsabers are archaic relics of the past and most people have never even seen one, let alone know the first thing about modifying it.

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Yeah, the issue is balance. Jedi are a popular option and their… Hobbyist variant in EotE is intentional. While the proposed upgrades might function mechanically, every step you take closer to housing together a true Jedi is a step you take in making force users the only class worth playing.

I'm not saying that you can't try and make your own Jedi, just that it won't take long before you're going to need to take efforts to balance out the other classes to keep their players from feeling left out. Mabe something like they start with additional XP or maybe the cost of your Jedi traits need to be unusually high.

And yes, I expect that for a EotE class character to play with a character from Force and Destiny the EotE class is going to start with a pile of XP or some other really nice perks and upgrades. 

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nothing in the book about what groups decide to give their force sensitive players. It is kinda strange to ask if a saber could have hardpoints other than the fact it is is a very powerfull weapon and you wouldent use it day to day as a player. Dunno as is force sensitive players are op if you can think how to use your given powers.

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I'd say hilts and crystals are mostly aesthetic and that even if they weren't, given the era a lightsaber wielder isn't going to be spoiled for choice when it comes to things like that. And if you really wanted there's always the tinkerer talent to give it a hardpoint. Additionally lightsabers are tailored to their creator and low level force users like the kind found in this game are mostly going to be useing either found sabers that don't suit them or ones that they struggled to make and barely work.

 

Also carrying one at all is just asking for pain.

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Other then asthetics, even the EU hasn't made that many modifications of a lightsaber. They block the same, damage other objects the same. So, really all they are is different colored and maybe slightly shorter or longer.

The video games you referenced have to allow for more as you have to have a way to increase damage output to go along with gaining levels… which doesn't happen in this RPG and so those aren't really needed.

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Kallabecca said:

Other then asthetics, even the EU hasn't made that many modifications of a lightsaber. They block the same, damage other objects the same. So, really all they are is different colored and maybe slightly shorter or longer.

The video games you referenced have to allow for more as you have to have a way to increase damage output to go along with gaining levels… which doesn't happen in this RPG and so those aren't really needed.

This, very much this.

Lightsabers frankly don't need the abiltiy to be extensively modified, particularly given how powerful they already are in EotE given their low Crit Rating and the Breach quality.

The video game stuff (notably from the KOTOR games) doesn't need to be included at all, or at the very least not until Force & Destiny.  In the vast bulk of the EU, we never see Jedi tweaking their lightsabers to account for different crystal properties or hilt components; they pretty much all function the same way, with the only real variances being size (such shoto/short 'sabers, great 'sabers, or Corran Horn's dual-phase lightsaber) and occasionally hilt (Dooku and Ventress' curved-hilt lightsabers as well as the 'saber tonfas that Zabrak Dark Jedi woman from the first Force Unleashed game used).

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I'm all for Light Sabers being more detailed in the future core book. I would agree a talent which allows your Mechanic skill to make/mod light sabers would ber very appropriate.

I've already made notes in a house rule document of mine regarding new weapon attachments. For Light Sabers thus far I've come up with attachments that include, "Short Saber", and "Double Bladed Saber". I suppose a mandatory attachment could be, "Saber Color".  Mods might increase battery life if that is incorporated into the rules (perhaps similar to the Extra Powerpacks gear in the core rules to avoid burn out, but for light sabers). A "Curved Handle" mod such as Count Dooku's could have a game effect also.

Just thoughts.

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Mechannically there is no difference between a regular, long or short blade. A double blade is mechanically the same as fighting with two weapons. The shape of the hilt and the "type" of crystals used should make no mechanical difference over any other saber. Again, those are all elements of look and feel, not mechanics.

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Kallabecca said:

Mechannically there is no difference between a regular, long or short blade. A double blade is mechanically the same as fighting with two weapons. The shape of the hilt and the "type" of crystals used should make no mechanical difference over any other saber. Again, those are all elements of look and feel, not mechanics.

You are applying realism to an RPG about a scifi epic. If you want these things to make a difference because it would be fun for game purposes, then let it be. I can imagine Jedi players loving the idea of tinkering with their lightsabers, just as a bounty hunter would love tinkering with his blaster rifle.

On Short Blades: The attachment for a short bladed light saber could be a, "Focalized Crystal". If you are commenting on a discussion from the EU, I know nothing about EU regarding short blades. For game purposes, you could easily assign advantages and disadvantages to a short bladed lightsaber. Easier to dual wield but a negative aspet due to a shorter reach.

On Double Blades: Equating a double bladed lightsaber with being no different then using two light sabers is incorrect. Is fighting with a quarterstaff exactly the same as fighting with two wooden clubs? Apply a simple speed bonus such as Quick Strike to Double Bladed Lightsabers. Increase Encumbrance due to effectively wielding two light sabers in one. The attachment is an, "Extra Blade".

On curved hilts: You may have me on mechanics, but I could still imagine a game purpose just for fun. Consider that Count Dooku was a Makashi duelist (see Wookieepedia). Perhaps make a curved handled light saber be a requirement to use this form of lightsaber fighting (Talent forms coming in the 3rd core book?) which gives a game bonus of +1 Defense when fighting another lightsaber wielder, but gives a negative of -2 damage.

 

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Kallabecca said:

Mechannically there is no difference between a regular, long or short blade. A double blade is mechanically the same as fighting with two weapons. The shape of the hilt and the "type" of crystals used should make no mechanical difference over any other saber. Again, those are all elements of look and feel, not mechanics.

Kallabecca said:

Mechannically there is no difference between a regular, long or short blade. A double blade is mechanically the same as fighting with two weapons. The shape of the hilt and the "type" of crystals used should make no mechanical difference over any other saber. Again, those are all elements of look and feel, not mechanics.

You are applying realism to an RPG about a scifi epic. If you want these things to make a difference because it would be fun for game purposes, then let it be. I can imagine Jedi players loving the idea of tinkering with their lightsabers, just as a bounty hunter would love tinkering with his blaster rifle.

On Short Blades: The attachment for a short bladed light saber could be a, "Focalized Crystal". If you are commenting on a discussion from the EU, I know nothing about EU regarding short blades. For game purposes, you could easily assign advantages and disadvantages to a short bladed lightsaber. Easier to dual wield but a negative aspet due to a shorter reach.

On Double Blades: Equating a double bladed lightsaber with being no different then using two light sabers is incorrect. Is fighting with a quarterstaff exactly the same as fighting with two wooden clubs? Apply a simple speed bonus such as Quick Strike to Double Bladed Lightsabers. Increase Encumbrance due to effectively wielding two light sabers in one. The attachment is an, "Extra Blade".

On curved hilts: You may have me on mechanics, but I could still imagine a game purpose just for fun. Consider that Count Dooku was a Makashi duelist (see Wookieepedia). Perhaps make a curved handled light saber be a requirement to use this form of lightsaber fighting (Talent forms coming in the 3rd core book?) which gives a game bonus of +1 Defense when fighting another lightsaber wielder, but gives a negative of -2 damage.

 

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Sturn said:

Kallabecca said:

 

Mechannically there is no difference between a regular, long or short blade. A double blade is mechanically the same as fighting with two weapons. The shape of the hilt and the "type" of crystals used should make no mechanical difference over any other saber. Again, those are all elements of look and feel, not mechanics.

 

 

Kallabecca said:

 

Mechannically there is no difference between a regular, long or short blade. A double blade is mechanically the same as fighting with two weapons. The shape of the hilt and the "type" of crystals used should make no mechanical difference over any other saber. Again, those are all elements of look and feel, not mechanics.

 

 

You are applying realism to an RPG about a scifi epic. If you want these things to make a difference because it would be fun for game purposes, then let it be. I can imagine Jedi players loving the idea of tinkering with their lightsabers, just as a bounty hunter would love tinkering with his blaster rifle.

On Short Blades: The attachment for a short bladed light saber could be a, "Focalized Crystal". If you are commenting on a discussion from the EU, I know nothing about EU regarding short blades. For game purposes, you could easily assign advantages and disadvantages to a short bladed lightsaber. Easier to dual wield but a negative aspet due to a shorter reach.

On Double Blades: Equating a double bladed lightsaber with being no different then using two light sabers is incorrect. Is fighting with a quarterstaff exactly the same as fighting with two wooden clubs? Apply a simple speed bonus such as Quick Strike to Double Bladed Lightsabers. Increase Encumbrance due to effectively wielding two light sabers in one. The attachment is an, "Extra Blade".

On curved hilts: You may have me on mechanics, but I could still imagine a game purpose just for fun. Consider that Count Dooku was a Makashi duelist (see Wookieepedia). Perhaps make a curved handled light saber be a requirement to use this form of lightsaber fighting (Talent forms coming in the 3rd core book?) which gives a game bonus of +1 Defense when fighting another lightsaber wielder, but gives a negative of -2 damage.

 

I applied realism? where? I talked about them having no MECHANICAL difference, and even showed what MECHANICS would be used to simulate those weapons… But a knife vs a sword isn't given any MECHANICAL difference in a fight in this RPG, so why would a short or long-bladed lightsaber vs any other melee weapon (even another lightsaber)?

Where someone might get some MECHANICAL bonuses/penalties would be in their TRAINING (Specialization Talents), not in the item per se.

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Kallabecca said:

I applied realism? where? I talked about them having no MECHANICAL difference, and even showed what MECHANICS would be used to simulate those weapons… But a knife vs a sword isn't given any MECHANICAL difference in a fight in this RPG, so why would a short or long-bladed lightsaber vs any other melee weapon (even another lightsaber)?

Where someone might get some MECHANICAL bonuses/penalties would be in their TRAINING (Specialization Talents), not in the item per se.

Knife does a point less damage than sword.

 

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Another big consideration here is that they are not expecting or promoting people playing characters which are Jedi or even Jedi levels of force power. Without proper training and knowledge it's unlikely a character will have a self-made lightsaber or be capable of effectively maintaining it. This means it's also unlikely they'll be able to modify one. The most likely way someone is likely to get a lightsaber is by finding one or by buying one from someone that found one, both seem like they'd be pretty rare.

I suspect that in the later Force and Destiny book we will see more information about lightsaber construction, personalization and possibly modification.

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ShiKage said:

I suspect that in the later Force and Destiny book we will see more information about lightsaber construction, personalization and possibly modification.

Similar to the inspiration of the force powers thread, this is why I've thought about making some house rules on this. We aren't likely to see anything like this until the 3rd book. So if it's needed, I at least have something to use until something official comes along.

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ShiKage said:

Another big consideration here is that they are not expecting or promoting people playing characters which are Jedi or even Jedi levels of force power. Without proper training and knowledge it's unlikely a character will have a self-made lightsaber or be capable of effectively maintaining it. This means it's also unlikely they'll be able to modify one. The most likely way someone is likely to get a lightsaber is by finding one or by buying one from someone that found one, both seem like they'd be pretty rare.

I suspect that in the later Force and Destiny book we will see more information about lightsaber construction, personalization and possibly modification.

According to much of the older EU fluff, anyone with sufficient training is in fact guided in making a lightsaber by the force itself.

 

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aramis said:

ShiKage said:

 

Another big consideration here is that they are not expecting or promoting people playing characters which are Jedi or even Jedi levels of force power. Without proper training and knowledge it's unlikely a character will have a self-made lightsaber or be capable of effectively maintaining it. This means it's also unlikely they'll be able to modify one. The most likely way someone is likely to get a lightsaber is by finding one or by buying one from someone that found one, both seem like they'd be pretty rare.

I suspect that in the later Force and Destiny book we will see more information about lightsaber construction, personalization and possibly modification.

 

 

According to much of the older EU fluff, anyone with sufficient training is in fact guided in making a lightsaber by the force itself.

 

 

Given that the current rules also prevent you from going above 2 force rating that may not be sufficient for the task.

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I think its a matter of degrees…changing lightsabers in the third game to make them moddable doesn't diminish or negate what came before.  "Jedi" in this game are weenie Jedi for whom things like that are for the future.  Luke was happy in Hope just to get a Sabre…do you think it ever occurred to him he would someday be building or modding his own?

 

The problem I see is with people not wanting to wait two years for their Jedi to get to that point…the whole Jedi catalog is going to be the most homebrewed thing in this game

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