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Pedro Lunaris said:

This was all brought up by Jon's sample chapter (which I didn't read), when Ghost "says" that he has lost the connection with one of his brothers. The discussion was which brother was that one. The theory about being Summer brought the Wall's hypothesis. But the fact that wights were animated south of the Wall is an argument that could go against that...

Haven't read it either, but I'd assume the brother that was lost is Grey Wind, seeing as how he is dead. Summer/Bran have had similar thoughts and the lost brother (to go along with the lost sister) referred to the dead.

Pedro Lunaris said:

But... and if just the corpses were brought, and then re-animated by someone who had climbed the Wall that very night? Then probably there could be other forces besides the Others to animate Wights, or the Wall wouldn't be able to stop Wights...

Well, I think you're making things needlessly complicated with that. The wights brought back through the Wall "came alive" at night. Remember that the Wildlings were always far less afraid of wights in the daytime. It was almost assuredly nighttime that reanimated them, not some un-named, un-seen, un-hinted third party that climbed the Wall near Castle Black the same day the Rangers brought back the bodies. I think we're getting real close to a "keep it simple" situation with that one. What is the most likely explanation there, really?

Personal opinion: The Wall is not a barrier against magic. It is a magical barrier against the Others and their ilk. Coldhands could not cross the Wall (said explicitly in SoS, BTW) because he has been touched/tainted by them in some way. Jon's separation from Ghost when he left him North of the Wall had less to do with having the Wall between them and more to do with the conscious decision to separate from his protector.

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I disagree about Jon/Ghost. Jon is constantly agonizing about being separated from ghost, and hopes he does well. And he mentions to Ygritte (I believe) that sine they climbed the wall he has had no sense of Ghost. But at the end of SoS when Jon goes to the north side of the wall he starts to "sense" Ghost again, in the same way Bran senses Summer. It may have been immediately after the dream where Bran talks to Jon in his dream through the heart tree that Jon "sees" the wildlings at the Milkwater through Ghost's eyes, but that may have been part of Bran awakening Jon to his ability.

I do agree that the wall was primarliy made to keep the Others out of Westeros, but I also believe that there are other powers at work that can prevent certain low-level magics from working as well.

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ktom said:

Haven't read it either, but I'd assume the brother that was lost is Grey Wind, seeing as how he is dead. Summer/Bran have had similar thoughts and the lost brother (to go along with the lost sister) referred to the dead.

 

 

There's a discussion about Jon's sample chapter here: http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp?efid=19&efcid=4&efidt=56254

 

From what JJ posted of the chapter, Ghost is excluding the two dead direwolfs from the list, so the lost one isn't one of them. Here is the quote: "Once they had been six, five whimpering blindly in the snow beside their dead mother, and him alone, the pale one, crawling off into the trees on shaky legs as his litter mates sucked cool milk from hard dead nipples. Now only four remained of the six born that day, and one of those was lost and gone."

ktom said:

Well, I think you're making things needlessly complicated with that. The wights brought back through the Wall "came alive" at night. Remember that the Wildlings were always far less afraid of wights in the daytime. It was almost assuredly nighttime that reanimated them, not some un-named, un-seen, un-hinted third party that climbed the Wall near Castle Black the same day the Rangers brought back the bodies. I think we're getting real close to a "keep it simple" situation with that one. What is the most likely explanation there, really?

Personal opinion: The Wall is not a barrier against magic. It is a magical barrier against the Others and their ilk. Coldhands could not cross the Wall (said explicitly in SoS, BTW) because he has been touched/tainted by them in some way. Jon's separation from Ghost when he left him North of the Wall had less to do with having the Wall between them and more to do with the conscious decision to separate from his protector.

 

Well, you are completely right, I'm making things more complicated than they need to be. I don't think Martin will go through the simpler path as a rule, though... So I'm just having fun imagining things... :]

 

To me the Wall has some blocking powers alright, and we are yet to see which type they are. As from Coldhands... yes, the hypotesis that he is touched by the wights somehow strikes me as being a very likely one. And what could that be?

 

I don't stop thinking about how many people are coming back from the dead, and what that's supposed to mean. And I think there is a good possibility that Coldhands is Benjen Stark.

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Pedro Lunaris said:

I don't stop thinking about how many people are coming back from the dead, and what that's supposed to mean. And I think there is a good possibility that Coldhands is Benjen Stark.

That is certainly one of the prevailing theories. A black brother, killed by the Others and turned into a wight (as we know Benjen's men were), but somehow retaining his autonomy and mind, probably through an outside force - perhaps made possible because he had the blood of the First Men?

Remember when Bran, upon hearing Benjen was lost north of the Wall, said with uncanny certainty, "yes, the Children will help him"? 

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ktom said:

That is certainly one of the prevailing theories. A black brother, killed by the Others and turned into a wight (as we know Benjen's men were), but somehow retaining his autonomy and mind, probably through an outside force - perhaps made possible because he had the blood of the First Men?

Remember when Bran, upon hearing Benjen was lost north of the Wall, said with uncanny certainty, "yes, the Children will help him"? 

 

yes, that is a great reminder.

 

I don't think it's exaclty the blood of the First Men that could have made Coldhands retain his memory even if he was turned into a wight. many a person has a strong blood connection with the First Men in the north, specially beyound the Wall. but surely Benjen has a significance that could have made him being safed. the Children of the Forest could have actively helped, or maybe the old powers they are attuned with. the Stark kids were granted direwolfs, one each, to have a special bond with. maybe those old powers are helping those that represent the things the old powers stand for...

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my problem with the jon is Raegars son theory is a genetics argument, if we found out Joffery was not roberts true son because he did not have the Baratheon Dark hair which was a dominant feature, then why wouldn't jon snow have the silver hair of the Targ line, this trait I'm assuming is also dominant because the dark hair of the martell line didn't seem to corrupt the silverness of targ hair at all, just speculation here though

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sajuhl1987 said:

my problem with the jon is Raegars son theory is a genetics argument, if we found out Joffery was not roberts true son because he did not have the Baratheon Dark hair which was a dominant feature, then why wouldn't jon snow have the silver hair of the Targ line, this trait I'm assuming is also dominant because the dark hair of the martell line didn't seem to corrupt the silverness of targ hair at all, just speculation here though

Ah, but where are the Stark/Targaryen offspring for comparison. The dark Baratheon features may be dominant over the Lannister fair coloring (regardless of whether the Baratheon is maternal or paternal, btw), but that doesn't mean paternal hair color is always dominant in Westeros. We don't know what to expect historically from mixes of Stark and Targaryen. Perhaps Jon is typical.

Remember that all the Stark children except Arya look more like Tullys.

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And on that same note, we are told that Jon and Arya look alot alike (so much so that Sansa once asked her mother is Arya was "really her sister," and that Arya looks like Lyanna, so we get the three-way tie between looks of the Starks.

Genetics aside, let's also look at Eddard's promise to his dying sister. All we know is Ned promised something to his sister, though it is never truly revealed what that promise is. The easy assumption is that she made Ned promise, on her deathbed, to have her buried at Winterfell. But why would this promise haunt him so much? Because she really made him promise to keep her and Rhaegar's child safe. There can be almost no doubt that Lyanna did give birth to a child at the Tower of Joy (she died amidst blood and roses), and that if Robert knew there was any living offspring of a Targaryen, especially one that was sired on his betrothed, he would almost assuredly kill that child. Now, there are other options for placing the safe keeping of the child other than with Ned himself (Ashara Dayne comes to mind, as it seems hard to believe that any woman would kill herself over the death of her brother, but I have other theories about that one), but for someone with Ned's sense of honor to bring his own bastard home and raise as one of his own would almost take a different sort of honor in this case, bound by a promise to the dead.

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I think Jon being Rhaegar's son with Lyanna is a pretty consistent theory. the way Martin is organizing thinks, Jon is being put in a place where many power vetors converge: he is the appointed heir of his brother Robb, he is the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, he is a potential ally of Daenerys, he maybe is the bastard son of Rhaegar. even if he probably won't go after any of this claims, even if he never know that Robb had signed a document saying he is the heir of the Northern Thorne, it is a very interesting thing what is happening to Jon...

 

but Martin do play with the images he himself creates. I will probably be surprised with any resolution that comes out of it. but I won't be surprised in being surprised... :] maybe we will never know who is Jon's parents. maybe he is actually Robert's and Lyanna's son (he has dark hair)... maybe he is Ned's bastard with the Dayne woman...

 

it's nice to try and see ahead, but I will strongly suggest us to keep any certainty out of our view of the future... ;]

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Pedro Lunaris said:

maybe we will never know who is Jon's parents.

Well, considering there is only one person alive who probably knows, and witnessed, the whole story, it does seem unlikely.

 

However, I think we should be careful about the "that can't be it because GRRM wouldn't leave so many clues that lead you there" approach. He leaves clues all the time. What he doesn't always do is put them together for the reader. There may never be a scene where Howland Reed tells Jon the history of his birth, but the question is likely to be answered - if it is important to either the character or the story. (That's the part people gloss over a lot. Would Rhaegar's blood really make Jon a Targaryen in any way that matters to him?)

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ktom said:

 

However, I think we should be careful about the "that can't be it because GRRM wouldn't leave so many clues that lead you there" approach. He leaves clues all the time. What he doesn't always do is put them together for the reader. There may never be a scene where Howland Reed tells Jon the history of his birth, but the question is likely to be answered - if it is important to either the character or the story. (That's the part people gloss over a lot. Would Rhaegar's blood really make Jon a Targaryen in any way that matters to him?)

 

I do think Martin leaves a lot of clues. far too many for someone like me to count. I'm always impressed with all the details you guys bring to argument.

 

what I do think is that, even when Martin leaves clues that apparently points to somewhere, he doesn't always follows the way he seems to be pointing...

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Although it's been almost a year since anyone posted on this topic I just finished all 4 books again and I'm really itching to discuss some things (and DwD should be out soon according to GRRM)

Assuming that Jon Snow is indeed a Targaryen, who is the third head of the dragon, and why must the dragon have three heads in the first place?  Does anyone have any thoughts about this at all, or are we thinking that the third head is a character that will come up later in the story?

Also, will the plot thread that was started in the prologue to FfC be dealt with in Dance, or will we have to wait for Winds before we get more information about the alchemist and why he is masquerading as Pate?

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Skowza said:

(and DwD should be out soon according to GRRM)
We've been hearing that from him for something like 5 years now.

Skowza said:

Assuming that Jon Snow is indeed a Targaryen, who is the third head of the dragon, and why must the dragon have three heads in the first place?  Does anyone have any thoughts about this at all, or are we thinking that the third head is a character that will come up later in the story?
The three heads of the dragon comes from the same legend that produces the Prince (or Princess) who was Promised. That is clear from Rhaegar's obvious attempts to fulfill the prophecy, first with himself, then with his children. It's also symmetry to Aegon the Conqueror: Three dragons, three riders. And funny enough, there are three dragons now... (although, apparently there could be more eggs out there based on the 3rd Dunk and Egg story). 

Quite honestly, nothing says the "dragon heads" must have Targaryen blood or even be related to the Targaryens by marriage. THAT is a complete assumption based on the parallel to Aegon the Conqueror and his two sister/wives. Even GRRM in conversation has pointed out this fact. So even if Jon is indeed the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, there is no guarantee that he will be a head of the dragon. His role as Lord Commander of the Night's Watch may be more important, ultimately.

In the end, assuming we believe that Danaerys is the person in the legend (born in salt and storm, bringing the stone dragon to life, etc.), she is the only head of the dragon that seems assured. Jon is a good candidate, but people have supposed everyone from Bran, Tyrion, Arya, and just about every fan favorite. Quentyn Martell may be a possibility, Euron certain seems interested in usurping the dragons, and, as you mention, there are other characters we probably have not even met yet (the name Jon Connington, a friend of Rhaegar's and the last effective, and subsequently banished, Hand of the King for Aerys, has been floated).

 

I think it's probably too early to tell. Dance will be important because it will (hopefully) further the story of the Others - through Jon and Stannis - who are ultimately the opponents for the heads of the dragons. It will also further the story of the gathering of people around Dany (Quentyn, Tyrion, etc.). With developments there, more will be known about the purpose of the dragons' heads, which will help form ideas for the identity.


Skowza said:

Also, will the plot thread that was started in the prologue to FfC be dealt with in Dance, or will we have to wait for Winds before we get more information about the alchemist and why he is masquerading as Pate?
The "alchemist"? I'm not sure about the alchemist thing. But it's been awhile since I read the book. The person masquerading as Pate is almost certainly Jaqen H'ghar by the description in the prologue - whom some people have theorized is also Syrio Forel. Whether or not that is dealt with in Dance will depend on how closely he sticks to his "split POVs" description. There aren't likely to be any chapters told from the POV of people in Oldtown if he sticks to the Jon, Bran, Dany, Stannis POVs as he said he is likely to do. We may have to wait until Winds to see what happens at the Citadel with Sam - just like we may have to wait until Winds to see what happens to people like Brienne, Jaime, Cersei and Myrcella.

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ktom said:

Skowza said:

(and DwD should be out soon according to GRRM)

We've been hearing that from him for something like 5 years now.

 

 

Yea, but now he's 5 chapters away from being done (?)

ktom said:

The "alchemist"? I'm not sure about the alchemist thing. But it's been awhile since I read the book. The person masquerading as Pate is almost certainly Jaqen H'ghar by the description in the prologue - whom some people have theorized is also Syrio Forel.

Yes, I'd like to believe that Syrio is still alive since it was never explicitly stated that he is dead (he won his challenge against Ser Meryn and went back into shadows?) but I'll be sorely disappointed if this isn't at least touched on somewhere in Dance, otherwise the prologue and the last Sam chapter in Feast was a complete teaser that really belongs in Winds of Winter. 
 

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Skowza said:

Yea, but now he's 5 chapters away from being done (?)
And has been - for almost a year now.

Skowza said:

Yes, I'd like to believe that Syrio is still alive since it was never explicitly stated that he is dead (he won his challenge against Ser Meryn and went back into shadows?) but I'll be sorely disappointed if this isn't at least touched on somewhere in Dance, otherwise the prologue and the last Sam chapter in Feast was a complete teaser that really belongs in Winds of Winter.
The purpose of the last Sam chapter was to send Archmaester Marwyn to Slaver's Bay to find Dany. That much is likely to show up in the next book.

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Skowza said:

 

Yes, I'd like to believe that Syrio is still alive since it was never explicitly stated that he is dead (he won his challenge against Ser Meryn and went back into shadows?) but I'll be sorely disappointed if this isn't at least touched on somewhere in Dance, otherwise the prologue and the last Sam chapter in Feast was a complete teaser that really belongs in Winds of Winter. 
 

Because it's not like GRRM has introduced something in a prologue and then taken two more books until they appear again.

Like Ktom says, since Dance is supposed to be a companion piece to Feast, we will be lucky if we get any additional information about what the maesters are planning and Pate/Jaqen's true purpose at the Citiadel until book 6. But I disagree with the final chapter being solely about getting Marwyn to Slaver's Bay. It does tell us that Jaqen has infiltrated the citadel, obviously with a mission (likely one that involves assassination, as that is what the Faceless men do), gives more evidence that Alleras the Sphinx is Prince Oberyn's daughter Sarella Sand and that Lazy Leo Hightower works even more directly with Archmaester Marwyn that hinted at in the prologue. And that Marwyn has surrounded himself with acolytes that are above average in some way. I wouldn't be surprised if he knew about Pate's true identity, and perhaps even hired him to begin with.

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Skowza said:

 

Yes, I'd like to believe that Syrio is still alive since it was never explicitly stated that he is dead (he won his challenge against Ser Meryn and went back into shadows?)  

More like he lost his challange and went to the Black Cells where he changed his face? Surely he has Some sort of reason for being in Westeros other than runing into Arya from time to time? Like Somebody must have hired him, I wouldnt be suprised if he was operating on an old order of Rhaegar's or Areys' therefore justifying his presence in King's Landing, and westeros in general. That or he's Varys' creature? Either way whoever hired him has to be either dead or missing or very very secretive to justify no one mentioning anything aobut having a secret assassin doing their bidding. Get what I mean?

I imagine Dance will have atleast Some overlap with Feast? Oldtown seems to be too important in the greater scheme of things to be completley left out of the next book? On the flip side one can say that about The Wall and Dany and then Feast hapened o.O What I Really want to know is where Varys and Tyrion are? I imagine theyre chillin at Illyrio's?

Tbh with the amount of confusion and speculation going on I think the best explanation for everything is that Varys is, indeed, a Timelord...The Red Keep is his Tardis (apologies to everyone who doesnt know anything about Dr. Who =P )

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