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ktom

Obligatory Topics...

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 So, should we just start the inevitable "Who are Jon Snow's Parents" and "Who Should Be Cast As..." threads now? Or how about the "When is Dance REALLY Going to Come Out?"

What other topics always seem to come up when discussing the books?

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vermillian said:

Biggest shocker in dance: Tyrion gets eaten by a dragon. :) (oooh I'd be SOOO mad)

Well, he is pretty close in size to a child...

 

Dance Speculations? How is Dany going to react to Quentyn Martell when he shows up (with the Golden Company in tow, perhaps)?

Martin has the first Jon Snow chapter up on his website. How about the last thing Melissandre' says to him?

Hopefully we will learn who Ossifer Plum is. I'm assuming Brown Ben will tell us, and we'll learn how a dead man had a child.

And, the real reason this book is so late is because as soon as we read the first Bran chapter we will either know who COldhands is, or knock another name off the list of possible candidates.

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What do you mean? About the enemies or Ygritte's line?

I think Melissandre is realizing that she is mistaken in Stannis and that she's either going to convince Jon that he's Azorr Ahai or that she's going to shag his brains out, or a bit of both.

 

Concerning Dany, I thought that she was going to hook up with Jon, as both are heirs to the Targaryen line, but that's a lot of speculation of course, and maybe she'll include Martell in her marriage too.

 

 

 

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Jotun3Ships said:

Concerning Dany, I thought that she was going to hook up with Jon, as both are heirs to the Targaryen line, but that's a lot of speculation of course, and maybe she'll include Martell in her marriage too.

Strictly speaking, if Jon is Rhaegar's son and there is no question of legitimacy (either because Rhaegar had two wives like Aegon the Conqueror or through some patent of legitimization), then Jon is the heir to the Targaryen line, not Dany. If there is a question of legitimacy, then Dany is the only heir.

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Well, no, because Jon would be Rhaegar's bastard with Lyanna and not true-born, so it would be Dany in either case.

 

And apart from Melissandre reading it in the flames there's not many other options to "legitimize" the claim. I don't think anyone South of the Neck is going to listen to a warty Crannogman.

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Jotun3Ships said:

Well, no, because Jon would be Rhaegar's bastard with Lyanna and not true-born, so it would be Dany in either case.

Hence the comments about legitimacy. The crown can legitimize bastards through proclamation or decree. Consider the letter King Robb wrote legitimizing Jon as the son of Eddard Stark. Such a document, or a record of a marriage between Rhaegar and Lyanna (the comment about Aegon the Conquerer was to remind people that two wives for a Targaryen is not unheard of), could exist. That would make Jon true-born and heir in place of Dany.

Depending on the wording of the deathbed decree, there is also the fun legal possibility that the 100+ year-old proclamation legitimizing the Targaryen bastards (that ultimately led to the Blackfyre Rebellion) legitimized ALL Targaryen bastards. A 100-year-old legal precedent, with or without the word of some "warty Crannogman," may be more than enough for anyone south of the Neck that prefers a "Targaryen" king who has lived in Westeros all his life to a Targaryen queen who has never set foot on the continent.

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One flaw to Jon as heir: he's Taken the Black, and thus renounced all claims to lands and titles. Sure, that could always be put aside, especially if there is no more need for the Watch after all is said and done. But as things currently stand, he has no claim to the throne.

As for the Melisandre' line, I was refering to "You know nothing, Jon Snow." It literally sent chills through me, and had a wtf moment. That did more for me as a teaser than any of the other sample chapters, even though I have enjoyed them all.

On a completely unrelated note, just before Christmas I stopped by an independent bokseller near where I work, and picked up a copy of Martin's Nightflyers. The store owner asked if I had read Ice and Fire, and we got into a short discussion, because he had other customers to help. He thinks the main reason tha Dance isn't available yet is because Martin is in some dispute with the publishers. Between the 1st place debut of Feast on the NY Times bestseller list and the upcoming HBO series, he figures George is trying to get his fair share of the take from the next few books. DwD is bound to be another major bestseller, and he's sure Martin wants to make sure he is getting what his efforts are worth. Strangely enough, it makes some sense to me. But like any theory related to the books, can it be believed?

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JerusalemJones said:

One flaw to Jon as heir: he's Taken the Black, and thus renounced all claims to lands and titles. Sure, that could always be put aside, especially if there is no more need for the Watch after all is said and done. But as things currently stand, he has no claim to the throne.

~ Yeah, that particular aspect has mattered so much to the people that want something from Jon thus far. It was a non-issue to Robb. It was a non-issue to Stannis. I think it'd be a non-issue to anyone trying to put Jon on the throne as the son of Rhaegar Targaryen. 

The important part about all that, of course, is that it is NOT a non-issue to Jon. And I have maintained all along that in the end, it'll be nurture over nature for Jon. Regardless of who his biological father may have been, in his heart he is the son of Eddard and a Stark. And the 998th Lord Commander of the Night's Watch.

JerusalemJones said:

On a completely unrelated note, just before Christmas I stopped by an independent bokseller near where I work, and picked up a copy of Martin's Nightflyers. The store owner asked if I had read Ice and Fire, and we got into a short discussion, because he had other customers to help. He thinks the main reason tha Dance isn't available yet is because Martin is in some dispute with the publishers. Between the 1st place debut of Feast on the NY Times bestseller list and the upcoming HBO series, he figures George is trying to get his fair share of the take from the next few books. DwD is bound to be another major bestseller, and he's sure Martin wants to make sure he is getting what his efforts are worth. Strangely enough, it makes some sense to me. But like any theory related to the books, can it be believed?

Biggest hole in that theory is that the book is already contracted for. "Because I want more money" is not necessarily a good enough reason to renegotiate a contract and a price you have already settled on, particularly if you continually miss deadlines (remember how he was saying he thought it might be done and to the publisher by late summer?). He may be trying to get more money out of the deal, but if he is, he's probably reneging on an existing contract, which is gonna cause even more problems. I also think he'd probably have mentioned something about the contract being renegotiated as the reason for the delay.

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ktom said:

The important part about all that, of course, is that it is NOT a non-issue to Jon. And I have maintained all along that in the end, it'll be nurture over nature for Jon. Regardless of who his biological father may have been, in his heart he is the son of Eddard and a Stark. And the 998th Lord Commander of the Night's Watch.

That is assuming, of course, that there is a Night's Watch left for him to be Lord Commander of. Mance claimed that the warhorn in his tent at the end of ASoS was the Horn of Winter. I'll go for the cliche and quote Anton Chekhov here: "If a gun is placed on the mantle in act 1, then it must be fired by act 3." Why else bring Joramun's horn into the story, if not to use it later?

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soma said:

ktom said:

 

The important part about all that, of course, is that it is NOT a non-issue to Jon. And I have maintained all along that in the end, it'll be nurture over nature for Jon. Regardless of who his biological father may have been, in his heart he is the son of Eddard and a Stark. And the 998th Lord Commander of the Night's Watch.

 

 

That is assuming, of course, that there is a Night's Watch left for him to be Lord Commander of. Mance claimed that the warhorn in his tent at the end of ASoS was the Horn of Winter. I'll go for the cliche and quote Anton Chekhov here: "If a gun is placed on the mantle in act 1, then it must be fired by act 3." Why else bring Joramun's horn into the story, if not to use it later?

But do you know for a fact that it will work, and that even if it works, it will bring down the Wall? The fact that the horn exists and the Wall is still standing calls the power of the horn into question, doesn't it? It's the "how do you practice a rain dance" conundrum; if you don't practice, how do you know it'll work - but if it works, wouldn't the practice make it rain?

I would tend to agree that there may not be a Wall or a Night's Watch by then end of all this - but as long as there is a Watch, that's where Jon will be.Of course, all this is assuming that Jon even lives to see all of this. In these books, there is no guarantee that Jon will live to see the end of his own story.

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ktom said:

 

But do you know for a fact that it will work, and that even if it works, it will bring down the Wall? The fact that the horn exists and the Wall is still standing calls the power of the horn into question, doesn't it? It's the "how do you practice a rain dance" conundrum; if you don't practice, how do you know it'll work - but if it works, wouldn't the practice make it rain?

I would tend to agree that there may not be a Wall or a Night's Watch by then end of all this - but as long as there is a Watch, that's where Jon will be.Of course, all this is assuming that Jon even lives to see all of this. In these books, there is no guarantee that Jon will live to see the end of his own story.

Heh, true that.

There is the whole "magic coming back into the world" theme to take into the account. So far we've got Thoros of Myr, who before this was pretty much a priest in name only, bringing people back from the dead, an ironborn's lungs turned to ash by blowing another allegedly magic horn, three dragons born from petrified eggs where all previous attempts to hatch such eggs have failed, and a whole host of freaky stuff going on in the north that hasn't been seen for millenia. Maybe the horn didn't work before, but now?

More to the point, there would be huge dramatic significance if the wall comes down. If that happens then the wildlings and the others are everybody's problem. The others would kill everyone indiscriminately, Stark or Lannister, noble or common, trueborn or bastard. And as the Lannisters and Greyjoys continue to beggar Westeros with wars of blind ambition, who can be relied on to solve everyone's problem? There's no question that Jon takes his vows seriously enough to lead the Night's Watch. Failing that, would he take them seriously enough to lead the realm?

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If the horn was blown and the Others invaded, what guarantees would there be that at the end, if the Others lose, that they would be completely exterminated. There might be a need (real or perceived) to rebuild the Wall, and protect the kingdoms of Westeros again. I firmly believe that if the Night's Watch exists in any form at the end of the books, and Jon is still alive, Jon will remain with the Watch.

As for the Horn of Winter, I don't believe that the horn Mance has IS the horn. I still think that the drinking horn that Samwell has (the one stashed with the dragonglass that Jon and Ghost found) is either the real Horn of Winter, or else part of the real horn. There has to be some sort of significance to that horn, or else wy would it have been stashed with the one weapon known to hurt Others.

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Wow, you are great, people. I just finished the fourth book and am very glad to see this discussion here.

 

Plus, I had never thought of Jon being Raeghar's son with Lyanna. I kinda liked the idea that Ned had a flaw in his honor. But now I just can't see things differently. Anyway, I guess there is a clue about a way to get to the knowledge about who is Jon's mother (and father). There was an outlaw who talked with Arya saying that him and Jon were milk brothers... So Jon's mil mother could know something. There is also that matter of the lady that loved Eddard and apparently killed herself from grief. I don't know what is means, but maybe some hidden interest made it looked like she killed herself just to ensure some truth didn't leak...

 

Regarding Dani's two husbands, hasn't anyone thought about Victarion Greyjoy? He is brutal, but loyal enough. On an afterthought, I don't think he would agree to beign ruled by a woman... at least not if his personality don't change. And it could, from love, maybe.

 

But Dani's two husbands could be a metaphor. Maybe they don't need to be her husbands at all, just two special men who help her claim the throne. The dragon has three heads, and that could mean something different from "onde head with two husbands". :o] So, maybe Jon could be one of the heads, even if he doesn't claim anything for himself, neither joins Dani in marriage.

 

But, coming back to the title of this discussion, one obligatory topic to me would be: "does people brought back from the dead serve the Light Lord or The Other One?", and that could lead also to a discussion about the validity of religion. If one religion claims that they have the "real" god, but there are "miracles" happening from every religion, does it mean that everything is magic, and no god has any reality? But the Old Gods from before the First Men do seem to mean something real in the world...

 

Anyway, back to the obligatory topic I am suggesting, Catelyn new mood really, really give me chills. Maybe them who are brought from the dead do not serve one side or the other, but carries their own personality. And it did seems that Cat had gone mad just before she died...

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You know, have any of us ever considered that the Dragon's Three Heads might be Dany and a guy and another woman? I think we discount it just because there are no obvious  women to fill the role, but there is really nothing to prevent that from being the case.

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Well, maybe we are so much looking for 2 husbands because that was how the idea of the dragon needing 3 heads came up in the books: Ser Jorah Mormont telling Daenerys about how Aegon had two wives, his two sisters. So she should have two husbands.

 

That's a nice logic, and we could take that for granted, as Daenerys had... But G. R. R. Martin is a master at hiding plots in plain sight, as he is in making we know of things that some characters don't, and then describing them from the point of view of the character as they were just like that.

 

I really, really love how he brings things up.

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More thoughts on the subject.

 

This idea of "what serves what", "which direction those actions are aimed" is being a constant thought in my head after the fourth book. I haven't read the sample chapters of the fiftfh (aside from Daenery's).

 

"Who is Coldhands?", for instance, doesn't strike me as much as which purpose is he serving. He did help Sam escape the wights, but that could have been just a necessity. He did not kill any wight that I remember.

 

It seems that he is an envoy of some power in the north. It could mean someone who represents and old power on the world, rather than someone that represents an "evil" or "wight sided" one. But, regarding those ideas about the visions of the three-eyed crow being an affirmation of Bran's powers, I don't think so... It seems to me that the cranogman seer (I don't recall his name right now!) too has been given some indication that Bran needed to go north of the wall. So, if there is some power on the Wall that prevents some magical connections to pass through it, maybe it was the strenght of this misterious power in the north that bypassed it.

 

You know, I'm kinda guessing if we are going to hear anything about Bran in the fifth book. It wouldn't surprise me if Martin just decides to hold that part to show it later... And if Bran comes controling the last and most powerful horde of wights and the Others? Uh... that sure gives me chills... Or he could appear in the end, saving the day.

 

hum... *biting my nails*

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Pedro Lunaris said:

It seems that he is an envoy of some power in the north. It could mean someone who represents and old power on the world, rather than someone that represents an "evil" or "wight sided" one. But, regarding those ideas about the visions of the three-eyed crow being an affirmation of Bran's powers, I don't think so... It seems to me that the cranogman seer (I don't recall his name right now!) too has been given some indication that Bran needed to go north of the wall. So, if there is some power on the Wall that prevents some magical connections to pass through it, maybe it was the strenght of this misterious power in the north that bypassed it.

I don't think it was ever said that there was a power built into the Wall that stopped ALL magical connections from passing through. Far from it, in fact, since Bran was able to see through a heart tree and talk to Jon. You could even make the argument that the 6 direwolf pups and their bonds to the Stark kids are likely a product of northern magic, come south of the Wall. Rather, it statement was that the spells woven into the Wall stopped the magic of the Others from passing through. That can obviously be bypassed by ignorance wince the Wights the Watch brought back through the Wall were able to animate when the sun went down.

I'm sure that the Three-Eyed Crow is a person, not a personification. I personally think it is some agent of the Children of the Forest. And I think Coldhands is some sort of amalgam of the Other's wight-making magic and the Children's influence. He seems to be a wight that kept his human mind. I think that mind is because the Children helped him.

Pedro Lunaris said:

You know, I'm kinda guessing if we are going to hear anything about Bran in the fifth book. It wouldn't surprise me if Martin just decides to hold that part to show it later... And if Bran comes controling the last and most powerful horde of wights and the Others? Uh... that sure gives me chills... Or he could appear in the end, saving the day.

I doubt he is going to be coming on the side of the wights and the Others. The Three-Eyed Crow seems very much in opposition to those powers ("Now you see why you must live"). Plus, as long as he is living, he is an enemy of the Others.

I will point out that if Bran's skinchanging abilities continue in the direction they seem to be going, I wouldn't be surprised to see him "riding" a dragon.

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We do know that when Jon goes south of the Wall in Storm of Swords, he loses contact with Ghost, so the Wall does affect other forms of Magic, or at least the weaker forms, as Jon and Ghost do not share the same link that Bran does.

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JerusalemJones said:

We do know that when Jon goes south of the Wall in Storm of Swords, he loses contact with Ghost, so the Wall does affect other forms of Magic, or at least the weaker forms, as Jon and Ghost do not share the same link that Bran does.

Hmm. I haven't read that for awhile, so I don't remember exactly, but I don't remember Jon having a "sense" or "connection" with Ghost the way that Bran does with Summer - beyond the usual heightened empathy and control that all of the kids have. His wolf dreams were infrequent at best. The Wall's separation of the two of them seemed completely physical to me. In fact, other than the one time in the mountain pass (when Bran kind of pushed him into Ghost), I don't remember Jon having "wolf dreams." I remember him thinking "some skinchanger I am; I can't do it again." So I'm not sure there was anything there for the Wall to block.

But like I said, just because I don't remember a reference to a lost "magical" connection with Ghost, or even an emotional one at that, doesn't mean it wasn't there.

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ktom said:

 

Hmm. I haven't read that for awhile, so I don't remember exactly, but I don't remember Jon having a "sense" or "connection" with Ghost the way that Bran does with Summer - beyond the usual heightened empathy and control that all of the kids have. His wolf dreams were infrequent at best. The Wall's separation of the two of them seemed completely physical to me. In fact, other than the one time in the mountain pass (when Bran kind of pushed him into Ghost), I don't remember Jon having "wolf dreams." I remember him thinking "some skinchanger I am; I can't do it again." So I'm not sure there was anything there for the Wall to block.

But like I said, just because I don't remember a reference to a lost "magical" connection with Ghost, or even an emotional one at that, doesn't mean it wasn't there.

 

I don't remeber the exact quote, but to me it was plain that Jon felt strangely regarding his connection with Ghost when he went south of the Wall. I agree with you, ktom, that his connection was never as strong as the others. At least he had far fewer wolf dreamsthan the others - except from Robb, we didn't get any mention I recall about Robb having dreams (maybe it's also an age thing, a sensitivuty that they start to lose with age if not trained). And Sansa, I guess... Anyway, Jon always had few wolf dreams, but I remember that, when he went south of the Wall, he thought he maybe had lost Ghost, and one thing that came to his mind was not having wolf dreams.

 

This was all brought up by Jon's sample chapter (which I didn't read), when Ghost "says" that he has lost the connection with one of his brothers. The discussion was which brother was that one. The theory about being Summer brought the Wall's hypothesis. But the fact that wights were animated south of the Wall is an argument that could go against that... But... and if just the corpses were brought, and then re-animated by someone who had climbed the Wall that very night? Then probably there could be other forces besides the Others to animate Wights, or the Wall wouldn't be able to stop Wights...

 

It's just a thought, really.

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