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Who needs Bolt Guns?

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Bolt weapons are awesome but bolt shells are stupidly overpriced for what they do (384 thrones for a single bolter magazine, compared to 18 for a plasma gun flask or 15 for a meltagun canister).  My group houserules bolt shells to cost 3 per bolt instead of 16 per bolt, which still makes them cost 72 Thrones per magazine. Still pricey but not quite as bad. Perhaps it should be even lower, like 2 per bolt or 1 per bolt; bullets and shotgun shells are 1 Throne for 20 shots.

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PnPgamer said:

but also, bolt weapons cannot explode on your face like plasma guns will, and tend to shoot farther than meltaguns.

Range is fairly irrelevant in DH gunfights, since most of them take place within very short ranges, and a meltagun's sheer power justifies getting in close. As for plasma guns, a calamity vent or an expedient use of a Fate Point will negate the overheating effect, which still isn't nearly as bad as it is on the tabletop.

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Bolt guns are by the numbers, better than any equivalent SP, only losing out to the super expensive and rare Melta and Plasma (comparitively), a base bolt does more damage, more pen, more reliable damage, better damage type ("X" for explosive is one of the best) and has prestige attached to it.

However they are big, bulky, stand out, cost a TON to keep in ammo and honestly don't justify their cost effectiveness.

 

SP guns are easier to find (both new guns and the ammo), have cheaper alternate ammo, several high end models and a lot of options. However their base damage type is "I" for Impact, one of the weaker, the high end models stick just as much out and the base ammo though cheap, honestly, it sucks, they have worse damage, worse averages and their best "cheap" pen (3) is still under a bolter.

 

They honestly both have their uses, but unless doing a higher end campaign, I wouldn't outfit a PC with boltguns and even then they would have a good SP backup most likely. And yeah, for their cost there are a number of HIGHLY effective guns, like the hack shotgun, handcannon, shotguns, etc.

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He used nomad which is impact, he killed 5 people with a single shot… I don't know how, maybe it's an impact critical of 7?

nomad is also accurate so it does buttloads of damage too.

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You can do powerful damage with any weapon on a crit, friends of mine have talked about their punches which have ripped folks apart. Now, on to the Nomad, it is a VERY fine gun, the thing is, the Angelus Bolt Carbine is pretty much better in terms of power, from a max of 4d10 AND tearing. The same can be said for any bolt and SP weapon. Sacristan is better than the fancy handcannons like the Tranter and Carnodon overall. Remember, Anecdotal evidence is merely that, any weapon is capable of insane damage, the main thing is reliability, dependency and power.

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I agree completely with the OP! I ran some numbers…

 

Assumptions:
-Extended Magazine costs 10 more per magazine, increasing ammo cost. Solid Slugs is 1 for 15.
-Hellgun Capacitors (the smaller kind) cost 50 for one belt pack, for any hellgun style.
-You can silence/suppress Shotguns, regardless of what the rules say, cause that is possible, but difficult, in real life, and apparently you can suppress large caliber hunting/sniper rifles in this game, too.
-Extended Magazines can be combined with Duplus Clips, but not a Fire Selector (you choose which of the options to get more ammo on your gun).
-Only doing one full ammunition load for the example weapons, under the assumption that if you can buy one full ammunition load, you can get more ammo.
-You can't Duplus or Extended Magazine a Hellgun Capacitor.
-You don't want to put lots of things, like melee attachments, knives, or Exterminators, at the end of a sniper rifle (anything with at least 150 range and Accurate).
-Expander Rounds cost 5 for 6.
-You can upgrade an existing integrated melee weapon on a firearm to a mono variant for the mono price.
-You can put duplus clips in a Hellgun that can fire normal charge packs.
-Maglev Impeller Upgrade costs 150, and puts coils around the barrel of a weapon, making it a hybrid energy coilgun/solid penetrator weapon.
-Hellguns that can use normal charge packs get no benefit from Overcharge packs.
-The full sized backpack ammo pack is 100, and gives between 120-150 for most hellguns, and 200 for solid penetrator and boltguns.
-A Photo Sight costs 200, and can be put on top of a Telescopic Sight, but you can only benefit from one at a time.
-You can benefit from an optical sight and a red dot at the same time.
-An ammo backpack for a weapon that uses both electric (as in laser charge pack) and solid penetrating ammunition has half the total number of each that it would normally have, unless the chemical propulsion of the bullets is removed (like for a coilgun, ie, maglev impeler).
-You are not generally getting these things all at once; you are spending time and effort slowly getting the various modifications over time, and then putting them on your weapon with the appropriate skill use (tech-use, trade technomat, trade armourer).





*Up to Common, and under 100 Thrones:

Steadholder Lever Gun (60) + Silencer (10) + Bullets (.3/clip). Total: 70.3

or

Talon mk III Autopistol (70) + 30 round mag option + Silencer (10) + Bullets (1.5/clip). Total: 81.5

*Up to Average, under 150 Thrones:

Armageddon pattern Autogun (100) + Telescopic Sight (35) + Silencer (10) + Bullets (.75/clip). Total: 145.75

or:

Anoxis Pattern Stingray Rifle (100) + Melee Attachment (25) + Knife (5) + Basic Charge Pack (15/pack). Total: 145.

*Up to Average, Under 350 Thrones:

Skitarii Vanaheim Assault Shotgun (300) + Solid Slugs (1/clip) + Telescopic Sight (35).  Total: 336.

*Up to Scarce, Under 350 Thrones:

Death Light Sollex Lasgun (if you can make it to Magnogorsk) 250 + Telescopic Sight (35) + Melee Attachment (5) + Knife (5) + Basic Charge Pack (15/pack, 2 for 30) + Duplus Clips (10). Total: 335

or:

Minerva-Aegis Las Carbine (150) + Melee Attachment (5) + Combat Knife (40) w/Mono Upgrade (40) + Telescopic Sight (35) + Red Dot Laser (50) + Basic Overcharge Pack (15/pack). Total: 335.

*Up to Rare, Under 600 Thrones:

Voss Hellgun (180) + Basic charge packs (15/pack, two for 30) + Duplex Ammo Clips (10) + Melee Attachment 5 + Combat Knife 40 w/Mono Upgrade 40 + Telescopic Sight 35 + Auxiliary Grenade Launcher (250) + Gunmetal Solid mk III grenade (10). Total: 600.

or:

*D'Laku Crusade Hellgun (if you can make it to the Lathes) (500) + Basic charge packs (15/pack) + Telescopic Sight (35) + Red dot Laser (50). Total: 600.

or

Skitarii Vanaheim Assault Shotgun (300) + Solid Slugs (1.2/clip, for 2.4) + Silencer (10) + Extended Magazine (10, x2 for 20) + Duplus Clips (10) + Telescopic Sight (35) + Mono Upgrade for existing bayonet (40) + Exterminator (35). Total: 452.4.

*Up to Very Rare, Under 1000 Thrones

D'Laku Crusade Hellgun (300) + Hellgun Capacitor (50) + Telescopic Sight (35) + Red dot laser (50)+ Melee Attachment (5) + Combat Knife (40) with Mono Upgrade (40) + Auxilary Grenade Launcher (250) + Inferno Thermal Grenade (60) + Exterminator (35). Total: 905

or

Pax Factorem Rifle (750) + Expander Rounds (5 for 6, x2 for 12) + Extended Magazine (20) + Duplus Ammo Clips (10) + Silencer (10) + Telescopic Sight (35) + Red Dot Laser (50).  Total: 887.

or

Skitarii Vanaheim Assault Shotgun (300) + Solid Slugs (6.67 for 100) + Silencer (10) + Ammo Backpack (100) + Telescopic Sight (35) + Mono Upgrade for existing bayonet (40) + Exterminator (35) + Auxiliary Grenade Launcher (250) + Inferno Thermal Grenade (60) + Maglev Impeller (150). Total: 986.67.

*Up to Very Rare, Under 1500 Thrones.

*Pax Factorem Rifle (750) + Ammo Backpack (100) + Expander Rounds (166.67) + Silencer (10) + Photo Sight (200) + Telescopic Sight (35) + Red Dot Laser (50).  Total: 1311.67

*Good Quality (600) D'Laku Crusade Hellgun (300) + Ammo Backpack (100) + Telescopic Sight (35) + Red dot laser (50)+ Melee Attachment (5) + Combat Knife (40) with Mono Upgrade (40) + Auxiliary Grenade Launcher (250) + Thermal Grenade (60).  Total: 1480.

*Good Quailty (600) Skitarii Vanaheim Assault Shotgun (300) + Ammo Backpack (100) + Solid Slugs (6.67 for 100) + Silencer (10) + Telescopic Sight (35) + Mono Upgrade for existing bayonet (40) + Exterminator (35) + Maglev Impeller (150) + Photo Sight (200).  Total: 1476.67.

*Scourge Boltgun (650) + Bolt Shells (24, at 16 each, for 384) + Telescopic Sight (35) + Exterminator (35) + Auxiliary Grenade Launcher (250) + Thermal Grenade (60) + Red Dot Laser (50).  Total: 1464.



Note: Basically, Inferno Thermal Grenades are really really nice all purpose grenades, and getting an auxiliary grenade launcher is very good, and you generally want full auto capable weapons for the +20 to hit in Dark Heresy. I would get everyone who can use the things Dlaku Crusade pattern Hellguns with lots of stuff added to them; use the Thermal grenades for things that the pen 4 isn't good enough for.

Also, consider using carbines with the Pistol Grip, like the Minerva-Aegis Las Carbine. Use that with a Synford Lockshield, and Carapace Armor. Good Carapace Armor lasts longer on a single charge than power armor (and there are addons to make it vac-sealed, too!), and the Lockshield gets +4 to armor to a lot of areas, and a carbine with a pistol grip can very easily be mounted in the firing port to get the full range, even with one hand. See if you can get a laser backpack that counts as a large scale overcharge pack (or get someone to overcharge it), to go with the Carbine!

A very good dedicated laspistol is the Voss Hellpistol. It is a laspistol that uses standard laspistol charge packs (cheap!), and gets good damage and penetration with those. Get one customized to increase the speed of reloading, and get a bunch of duplus laspistol charge packs, and a bunch of other customizations for the thing.

See if you can get a weapon that counts as balanced monosword, shock swords (with the armored hilt having a punching option and tie into the shock, and have duelist's grips and tox despensers. This lets you:

-Use the hilt to do a low damage bludgeoning, shock attack (think the officer's cutlass as a base), for nonlethal
-Use the blade for a low penetration shock attack
-Use the blade for a higher penetration mono attack (silent)
-Use the blade for a higher penetration mono attack with toxic (silent)
-Be very good at parrying, what with mono, balanced and duelist's grip. If there is one dedicated meleeist in the group, get them a Lathe version of the above (or maybe a Power Weapon version; it depends on how subtle they want to be), to resist damaging by power weaponry.

Basically, it looks to me that Boltguns aren't even remotely worth it! Ammo is just too absurdly expensive.  If you want anti-armor, get a weapon with an auxiliary grenade launcher, and put a krak or plasma or inferno thermal grenade in it!

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Like I said earlier, dropping the price of a bolt to 1 Throne per bolt would make them much more reasonable, and it's still 20 times more expensive than autogun bullets anyway. I can probably see why the other game lines did away with explicit pricings altogether in favor of an influence stat.

Incidentally, Happy 2013, everyone!

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Standard Bolt Shells SHOULD be expensive though, though Heavy Bolter Shells should cost less, due to mass production. The thing is though, they are not easily obtainable on most markets and the folks who use them (IG, Sororitas, Marines, etc.) have their own supply chains, bolt shells in DH are on the open market, where supply is much higher than demand, mainly nobles and folks from groups who want the prestige. Now, when you are higher up in the Inquisition, (i.e. not a fresh recruit) I fully support a reduced price or even a certain amount free. Most GMs mess up the supply procurement and items the =][= would give, which makes it worse when they give way too little cash (through pay, loot, etc.)

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Except that every description ever says that heavy bolter shells and normal bolt shells are exactly the same, and that there are no mass produced bolt shells anywhere ever except maybe Mars, and they are ALL artisan made… a bunch of artisans in a big factory, but that's not really mass production, really… that's just getting lots of artisans in one place…

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No they're not. Standard bolts are .75 caliber, Heavy Bolter shells are 1.00 caliber. Heavy Bolter shells are produced in much greater quantity, though, because of the rapid-fire nature of the weapon that uses it. That, and Heavy Bolters are much more common among organizations such as the Imperial Guard than boltguns and bolt pistols are.

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Gavinfoxx said:

I agree completely with the OP! I ran some numbers…

 

Assumptions:
-Extended Magazine costs 10 more per magazine, increasing ammo cost. Solid Slugs is 1 for 15.
-Hellgun Capacitors (the smaller kind) cost 50 for one belt pack, for any hellgun style.
-You can silence/suppress Shotguns, regardless of what the rules say, cause that is possible, but difficult, in real life, and apparently you can suppress large caliber hunting/sniper rifles in this game, too.
-Extended Magazines can be combined with Duplus Clips, but not a Fire Selector (you choose which of the options to get more ammo on your gun).
-Only doing one full ammunition load for the example weapons, under the assumption that if you can buy one full ammunition load, you can get more ammo.
-You can't Duplus or Extended Magazine a Hellgun Capacitor.
-You don't want to put lots of things, like melee attachments, knives, or Exterminators, at the end of a sniper rifle (anything with at least 150 range and Accurate).
-Expander Rounds cost 5 for 6.
-You can upgrade an existing integrated melee weapon on a firearm to a mono variant for the mono price.
-You can put duplus clips in a Hellgun that can fire normal charge packs.
-Maglev Impeller Upgrade costs 150, and puts coils around the barrel of a weapon, making it a hybrid energy coilgun/solid penetrator weapon.
-Hellguns that can use normal charge packs get no benefit from Overcharge packs.
-The full sized backpack ammo pack is 100, and gives between 120-150 for most hellguns, and 200 for solid penetrator and boltguns.
-A Photo Sight costs 200, and can be put on top of a Telescopic Sight, but you can only benefit from one at a time.
-You can benefit from an optical sight and a red dot at the same time.
-An ammo backpack for a weapon that uses both electric (as in laser charge pack) and solid penetrating ammunition has half the total number of each that it would normally have, unless the chemical propulsion of the bullets is removed (like for a coilgun, ie, maglev impeler).
-You are not generally getting these things all at once; you are spending time and effort slowly getting the various modifications over time, and then putting them on your weapon with the appropriate skill use (tech-use, trade technomat, trade armourer).


 

Sorry, but where do you get these Extended Magazines from?

I can't find this upgrade in any Dark Heresy Book.

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Gavinfoxx said:

That's cause they aren't.  They're backconverted from Black Crusade.

Making up some numbers isn't actually the right argument against Bolt Guns!

So backconverting the rules for ammunition from Black Crusade, where you won't have to make Acquisition Tests for standard ammunition, including bolts, would make Bolt Guns superior again, but I don't think rule discussions work like that. You making up House Rules to exploit the RAW of DH.

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Bolt Guns are for the combat Heavy Inquisitorial Kill-Team (Beside some nasty Hellguns) or the fancy acolythe with the right taste of style (any money). If you can afford them (by you own money or by the loadout provided to you) take them. They are awsome, they are all Warhammer 40k is about - beside some chainswords for sure^^.

But if you are playing some dirty akolythes that are just part of a greater inquisitorial network and that have to look for their own equipment a boltgun is far to eye-catchy and expensive. You want a weapon you can find ammo for, you can afford to repair and maybe even understand byyourself for some degree. (Every soldier should be able to maintain his own weapon, a boltgun is nothing for the hands of a scum). But in this cases the acolythes would prefer other weapons, weapons that are effective and customizable, weapons that offer them the chance to suit them to the particular wielder.

There is no need of balancing the weapons, they are good as they are. But dont expect yourself to be a scum in the dirt of a hiveworld that can afford to walk in power armor and wield bolters. Weapons have to suit the style of campaign you are playing and i do not believe that an inquisitor has any interest in having his best men without ammo.

The acquisition rules are just a guide, not a creed. Hell, I would ask myself about the power of the inquisition if it can not afford its advanced acolythes that have proven their worth with some decent ammunition. What is the Inquisition good for when 4 magazins of bolt ammo are to much at the beginning of a mission?

There are two possibilities. Either you are worthy of carrying a boltgun, then your inquisitor has an interest in keepin you ammo fed, or you are not, and this problem is completly yours - deal with it.

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My Noble Arbratrator although he can use Bolt Weapons is quite happy with his Coustom Hand Canon loaded with Manstopers and his Combat Shotgun, same goes for his partner. and they are around rank 6.

 

My Noble Guard "Oficer" is still geting use out of his orignal Mk IV Pistol loaded with Overcharge packs, his Sargent is still rocking her original Hellgun and his Corporal still uses his Armagedon w/Manstopers as a back up for when he empties the Grenade Launcher although they are only rank 3-4.

 

the SoB party I'm GM'ing is holding on to their Aramagedons w/manstopers so they can keep buying up devotional items and the Storm Bolter is for spechial ocations, the PC have bean told the Order is frounting the Ammo & Consumables costs but they have picked up on the fact they have a hidden Budget and their Ammo pool is only so deep.

 

Dispite the Death Stares we get at GW stores when I talk to other 40K RPG players I've found out that other groups complain and moan about having run out of Bolt Ammo about half way through most adventueres and bean reduced to finishing out the adventuere with Melle Weapons and Gear they have looted of the enemy  and fallen allies where my guys are still luging ammo home at the end of the day, they are amazed to hear my Arbrator has a suit of Best Quality Storm Trooper Carapace and a nice assortment of toys or my Guard officer has bean able to spot his Scout the cost of a Camoline Cloak after he bought up lots of toys for himself, we're fighting the same types of enemies, as I said my guys finish with Ammo, where the Bolt Gun users are encumbered by their empty Bolt Weapons as they try to finish out an adventuere.

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