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Vorpal Sword

Would you buy print-on-demand upgrades?

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I don't see how offering people a less expensive way to obtain the desired cards is unbalancing the playing field more than the current setup. Either way you are limited to buying what you need, but currently you must also buy what you may not need/want in order to get it. (For example, duplicate large ships)

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To me, this all depends on how FFG wants these cards, specifically the upgrade cards, to be distributed. If they've kind of designed this game around the notion of most people not going nuts with stuff like Stealth or R2 Astromechs, then they ought to stay away from anything but making us buy the boxes of minis. 

If this isn't some sort of soft balancing mechanism though, then yeah, I'd be down for some PoD or retail boxes or whatever. Why not? I don't think it'd hurt honest sales anyway- most folks are buying this game because the minis look cool. Me personally, I'm not going to buy a Y-Wing solely to get another R2 Astromech card, but I would buy him in a pack, so they're not losing any money from me adopting that kind of a policy. 

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A deluxe set sounds cool, but I hope they don't go that route. The main point many in this discussion are making is that certain unpgrades are more expensive to obtain in real dollars because of being limited in how they are available. Deluxe sets will make this problem worse, not better.

 

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magadizer said:

I don't see how offering people a less expensive way to obtain the desired cards is unbalancing the playing field more than the current setup. Either way you are limited to buying what you need, but currently you must also buy what you may not need/want in order to get it. (For example, duplicate large ships)

magadizer said:

I don't see how offering people a less expensive way to obtain the desired cards is unbalancing the playing field more than the current setup. Either way you are limited to buying what you need, but currently you must also buy what you may not need/want in order to get it. (For example, duplicate large ships)

 

I for one do not think it is unbalancing as long as they are available to all.  Not being familiar with PoD I would be more in favor of it being a pre-printed booster pack sold in a B&M store if that is the route FFG wanted to go.  Reason being I do not think the average gamer is savy to PoD.  It is proably a very small percentage of gamers that visit sites like this.  If I did not I would have no idea what PoD is.

Now if FFG fully embraced the PoD concept and started putting info flyers in all expansions for players to order additinal cards I would not have an issue as all players would have the opportunity.  It only becomes unbalaning if only a minority know about it via forums like this one and the average player thinks they have to buy extra expansions to get extra cards.

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I appreciate you expressing your point of view, but I don't understand it. I don't see these "average players" you speak of. Do people with enough disposable income to buy this game not have internet access to look and find out what the available products are for it?

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magadizer said:

A deluxe set sounds cool, but I hope they don't go that route. The main point many in this discussion are making is that certain unpgrades are more expensive to obtain in real dollars because of being limited in how they are available. Deluxe sets will make this problem worse, not better.

 

 

Yes and no, I am not saying it is the solution to the problem, but would certainly help the new gamer jump in and catch up with minimal investment,  Purchase a core set and a deluxe and you would instantly have one of every ship and two sets of game aids.

Some sort of booster pack be it pre-printed or PoD would be the way to solve getting extra cards.  I guess the real question is what is the game designers intent.  If it is to limit the amount of upgrades on the market then there is no real issue.

I just discovered that one of the squad builders out there has scans of cards.  Using cut and paste I know for home games I will be just printing out pre-configred squads on one sheet of paper and foregoing using the cards which will keep the game are less cluttered, so it is really only an issue for tournaments as long as your gaming group concurs.

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magadizer said:

I appreciate you expressing your point of view, but I don't understand it. I don't see these "average players" you speak of. Do people with enough disposable income to buy this game not have internet access to look and find out what the available products are for it?

No, I am sure most do, but I think you would find that the majority just do not do it.  They buy what is on the shelf open the game and expect to be able to play.  this was a huge issue with Axis and Allies minis and they issued revised cards via that internet.  Mnay players did not know about it unless someon in the group was on the forums and then there were always the debates of which cards to use.

Just look at the membership of this and other forums related to X-wing.  The game would surely not be as successful as it is if we were the only ones supporting it.

I am just saying that if they go with an online ordering system like PoD then FFG will need to make a concious effort to advertise it in stores and include flyers in the expansion etc.

We are living in a tech savy world, but not as many people as you may think take advantage of it.  I have to kind of laugh if the expectation is for the average gamer to go online to learn about what is availbale for a miniatures game. :)

 

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afilter said:

magadizer said:

 

I appreciate you expressing your point of view, but I don't understand it. I don't see these "average players" you speak of. Do people with enough disposable income to buy this game not have internet access to look and find out what the available products are for it?

 

 

No, I am sure most do, but I think you would find that the majority just do not do it.  They buy what is on the shelf open the game and expect to be able to play.  this was a huge issue with Axis and Allies minis and they issued revised cards via that internet.  Mnay players did not know about it unless someon in the group was on the forums and then there were always the debates of which cards to use.

Just look at the membership of this and other forums related to X-wing.  The game would surely not be as successful as it is if we were the only ones supporting it.

I am just saying that if they go with an online ordering system like PoD then FFG will need to make a concious effort to advertise it in stores and include flyers in the expansion etc.

We are living in a tech savy world, but not as many people as you may think take advantage of it.  I have to kind of laugh if the expectation is for the average gamer to go online to learn about what is availbale for a miniatures game. :)

 

 

Just to comment in support of that conclusion, the group that plays at our FLGS is about 16-18 people.  About 10 of those are regular, every Tuesday night (or more often) players and the other 6-8 come in when they can and/or play at home.  Only about 6 every mention the FFG forums at all (and almost never mention any other forums) and probably 2-4 of us hit multiple forums and participate with regularity in discussions.  This breakdown is pretty typical of other tabletop games I play (Warhammer Fantasy, Flames of War in particular).  So yes, the online community here is probably a very small fraction of the total player base of the game.  I also have a group of friends (about 8-10) who play in the midwest and none of them bother with any forums at all, they just play the game.

Jim

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Emrico said:

 

afilter said:

 

magadizer said:

 

I appreciate you expressing your point of view, but I don't understand it. I don't see these "average players" you speak of. Do people with enough disposable income to buy this game not have internet access to look and find out what the available products are for it?

 

 

No, I am sure most do, but I think you would find that the majority just do not do it.  They buy what is on the shelf open the game and expect to be able to play.  this was a huge issue with Axis and Allies minis and they issued revised cards via that internet.  Mnay players did not know about it unless someon in the group was on the forums and then there were always the debates of which cards to use.

Just look at the membership of this and other forums related to X-wing.  The game would surely not be as successful as it is if we were the only ones supporting it.

I am just saying that if they go with an online ordering system like PoD then FFG will need to make a concious effort to advertise it in stores and include flyers in the expansion etc.

We are living in a tech savy world, but not as many people as you may think take advantage of it.  I have to kind of laugh if the expectation is for the average gamer to go online to learn about what is availbale for a miniatures game. :)

 

 

 

 

Just to comment in support of that conclusion, the group that plays at our FLGS is about 16-18 people.  About 10 of those are regular, every Tuesday night (or more often) players and the other 6-8 come in when they can and/or play at home.  Only about 6 every mention the FFG forums at all (and almost never mention any other forums) and probably 2-4 of us hit multiple forums and participate with regularity in discussions.  This breakdown is pretty typical of other tabletop games I play (Warhammer Fantasy, Flames of War in particular).  So yes, the online community here is probably a very small fraction of the total player base of the game.  I also have a group of friends (about 8-10) who play in the midwest and none of them bother with any forums at all, they just play the game.

Jim

 

 

Couldn't a lot of the angst about players not knowing of the existance of POD expansions be removed by putting a flyer or similar into the starters and expansion sets? There's already a FFG catalogue (which mentions POD for other FFG systems) and other advertising propaganda in the starter box: Just add another piece of paper that says "Hey kids! Check out www.fantasyflightgames.com/PODTotallyCoolNewS%$tPewPewPew for addtional X-Wing cards!" Everybody wins.

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The question wasn't what fraction of regular players are also regular forum participants, but rather, will people have equitable access to getting POD expansions.

Just because you don't care about posting on a forum doesn't mean you won't look for news about a game you care about on the internet.

 

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magadizer said:

The question wasn't what fraction of regular players are also regular forum participants, but rather, will people have equitable access to getting POD expansions.

Just because you don't care about posting on a forum doesn't mean you won't look for news about a game you care about on the internet.

 

My FLGS stocks the "print-on-demand" expansions for the Lord of the Rings and Game of Thrones card games. I think the number of people who play the game enough to want/need extra tournament-legal upgrades, but don't use the internet or shop at a hobby store or play with anyone who does, is going to be pretty low.

For those who aren't familiar with it, print-on-demand is more about the supply chain than the marketing. It used to be that the only way to economically print something in high-quality full color was to order a lot of units with a long lead time; the downside of that is that if the product doesn't sell the way you want or expect it to, you're left with a warehouse full of product you can't sell. The "discount" table at your local Barnes & Noble is an artifact of that kind of pile-up in the supply chain: there are 9,000 leftover copies from the fifth printing of last quarter's bestseller, and it's cheaper to slash the price than to continue to store them.

POD means the product is only printed once the order arrives. It's still a little more expensive per unit than ordering in bulk in advance, but in a niche market like board and card games, it makes a lot of sense: you don't have a good idea how many or how quickly your product is going to sell, so you find a POD supplier. What it doesn't mean, particularly for a fairly large company like FFG with an existing and efficient distribution network, is that the packs can't be ordered by an FLGS or through FFG directly--as far as I know, that works exactly the same way as any of their other products.

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Battle Damage said:

 

 

Couldn't a lot of the angst about players not knowing of the existance of POD expansions be removed by putting a flyer or similar into the starters and expansion sets? There's already a FFG catalogue (which mentions POD for other FFG systems) and other advertising propaganda in the starter box: Just add another piece of paper that says "Hey kids! Check out www.fantasyflightgames.com/PODTotallyCoolNewS%$tPewPewPew for addtional X-Wing cards!" Everybody wins.

 

Pretty much sums up what I was saying if they go this route.

Again, my only concern is the information is out there so that "all" players know an item is available.  While the majority of players do have internet access I do not think the onus should be on them to go and search for information.  If FFG effectively advertised it with the basic products they are selling via traditional distribution means then I would have no issue with it.

While some may cross over from CCG to Miniatures gaming where the internet may be more of a common tool for playing the game my point was that is not always the case for a traditional miniature gamer.  To make assume otherwise is a pretty bold assumption and I believe false. That was my point.

As long as the information is out there in a printed form (flyer) and does not rely soley on forums or word of mouth to get the word out then it levels the playing field so to speak and does not create an unbalancing issue that some are concerned with.

Like I said I do not have much experience with PoD, but is sounds promising and a way to keep a game new and exciting without the company having to invest alot of resources and take a huge gamble.  It seems like the product design would be the only real investment for the company. 

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