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Cutievalkyrie

Do we shuffle the common item deck after purchasing food/research material?

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Cutievalkyrie said:

And how many ally cards can each player  have?

There is no limit to the number of allies you can have, and there is no reason why you should shuffle a deck after purchasing any item, unless you're referring to specific items gained thanks to a location special ability, in which case, yes, you do shuffle (and now the just released FAQ will certainly say something about it)

SIGH. How much I hate the new version of how to apply Kate's power on monster surges / the Find Gate after FAILING COMBAT vs a Night-gaunt (you fail a combat check, then your movement is oveeeeeer, how can you cast a bloody "movement phase "spell?

SOB

SIGH

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Cutievalkyrie said:



Thank you. And what if the items out of stock when i buy it? Do i still have an encounter location card instead?





There are 3 copies of the Food card (2 if you don't have the Kingsport expansion) and 2 of the Research material card. I'd say you cannot use a location special ability if the requirements are not met (as for the same reason you can't go shopping unless you have some money), so if you enter the First National Grocery and you see that your party already has all the Food cards and all the Research material cards, you have to draw an encounter card.



But I'm not sure if there is any ruling at this regard


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Well, you can't do the alternate ability if you literally can't do it. You can't heal 1 stamina at the hospital when you're at full stamina; you can't go shopping if you have no money; you can't be deputy if someone else has already become Deputy; it only makes sense that you can't buy a specific item if that specific item isn't available to buy. You would have to have an encounter.

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Julia said:

There are 3 copies of the Food card (2 if you don't have the Kingsport expansion) and 2 of the Research material card. I'd say you cannot use a location special ability if the requirements are not met (as for the same reason you can't go shopping unless you have some money), so if you enter the First National Grocery and you see that your party already has all the Food cards and all the Research material cards, you have to draw an encounter card.

But I'm not sure if there is any ruling at this regard

Are you expecting all players to have memorized the contents of the decks? And to keep track of what's left in the deck as the game progresses?

A similar situation could arise when purchasing items in the General Store. If you're only playing with the Common Item deck from the base game, there are 10 cards with the price of $1. The FAQ states that you have to have at least $1 in order to use the special encounter at the General Store. But what if none of these cards are inside the Common Item deck at the given time? Would you then be required to have at least $2 in order to use the special encounter? And would you be required to have kept track of this?

These are very specific situations, but playing the way you describe will at least not be very inviting to new players. And I assume that even some of the more experienced players can't be bothered to keep track of the contents of the different decks throughout the game.

The wording on the First National Grocery location is:
"Instead of having an encounter here, you may spend $1 to search the Common Item deck for a 'Food' or 'Research Materials' card."

One way of interpreting this could be:
If you spend $1, you may search the Common Item deck. If you find a Food card or a Research Materials card, you may take it. If you cannot find any such card, tough luck!

If you choose to interpret it this way, you don't have to keep track of the Common Item deck, and you won't do anything wrong by searching the deck for any Food or Research Materials which are not there. You will simply lose $1 in the attempt. ;-]

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eiterorm said:



Are you expecting all players to have memorized the contents of the decks? And to keep track of what's left in the deck as the game progresses?





::laughter:: Certainly I'm not expecting anyone to know exactly how many Food cards exist in the whole common item deck. My point was exactly Tibs'. You are not allowed to use a location specific ability unless you meet the requirements. Otherwise you can exploit this to avoid having encounters. So, in the rare case that you go there to buy Food and there is no food (and sure, you can search the deck, no probs with this), you have to draw an encounter card instead. For the same reason, you can't go to the South Church to buy a Blessing without having the trophies and so on


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Julia said:

 

eiterorm said:

 

Are you expecting all players to have memorized the contents of the decks? And to keep track of what's left in the deck as the game progresses?

 

 

::laughter:: Certainly I'm not expecting anyone to know exactly how many Food cards exist in the whole common item deck. My point was exactly Tibs'. You are not allowed to use a location specific ability unless you meet the requirements. Otherwise you can exploit this to avoid having encounters. So, in the rare case that you go there to buy Food and there is no food (and sure, you can search the deck, no probs with this), you have to draw an encounter card instead. For the same reason, you can't go to the South Church to buy a Blessing without having the trophies and so on

 

 

Aha, but then you have to search through the deck only to find that you shouldn't really have done so, because there were no items to draw. =P In this situation I prefer the interpretation I suggested above. With the suggested interpretation you still have to pay $1, even if you don't find any Food or Research Materials. That way you can't exploit the First National Grocery special encounter any more than you can exploit the General Store special encounter.

And why do I see so many different users have birthday cakes below the game collection icons? Surely you can't all have birthday today (which, by coincidence, also is my birthday)? =P

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I have to laugh about some of the rules which attempt to legislate good play…"you must have $1…" or "you may not give away your possessions and foreclose on a Bank Loan…"  yadda yadda yadda…seriously, if you have that kind of time to hang out at the shops or get to a friend and say "please hold my things while the sherrif repossesses my house" you have far too much time on your hands. reir

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anonymous said:

 

But, but… DH introduced tasks which cost $0 so that mean I can hang out in the general store forever without having encounters?

 

 

You must have at least $1 to be able to use the special encounter at the General Store. When using the special encounter you draw the top three cards in the Common Item deck. If you can afford one or more of the items, you must buy one! So you can't choose not to buy an item if you have the money. If you can't afford any of the items, nothing happens. The items you didn't buy then go to the bottom of the deck.

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eiterorm said:



Aha, but then you have to search through the deck only to find that you shouldn't really have done so, because there were no items to draw. =P In this situation I prefer the interpretation I suggested above. With the suggested interpretation you still have to pay $1, even if you don't find any Food or Research Materials. That way you can't exploit the First National Grocery special encounter any more than you can exploit the General Store special encounter.





Eiterorm, I do like your interpretation. The main point is that this obnoxious rule was created to stop situations like "the Servitor is in the Sky, ready to move! Oh, my Nodens! Let me choose a location to hide into! Which one? The one allowing me to simply skip the encounters phase" (clearly, you're not one of those who will exploit this).


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Julia said:

SIGH. How much I hate the new version of how to apply Kate's power on monster surges / the Find Gate after FAILING COMBAT vs a Night-gaunt (you fail a combat check, then your movement is oveeeeeer, how can you cast a bloody "movement phase "spell?

Because:

(a) A failed combat check doesn't end your movement;

(b) The Nightgaunt's ability doesn't say it ends movement; and

© There are actually lots of situations in which you can no longer move but your movement phase is not yet over.

I'm actually struggling to figure out how you could possibly have come to any other conclusion than what the FAQ tells you to do. It is, after all, merely reiterating what should be the well understood rules of the game.

Tibs said:

Well, you can't do the alternate ability if you literally can't do it. You can't heal 1 stamina at the hospital when you're at full stamina; you can't go shopping if you have no money; you can't be deputy if someone else has already become Deputy; it only makes sense that you can't buy a specific item if that specific item isn't available to buy. You would have to have an encounter.

What the location actually says, however, is: "Instead of having an encounter here, you may spend $1 to search the Common Item deck for a "Food" or "Research Materials" card."

Even if all the Food and Research Materials are in play you can still do that: You can still pay the $1, search the deck, and find nothing.

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Regarding your commend to Julia:

I'm struggling to figure out why you think a failed combat check doesn't end your movement. To have made a combat check in the first place requires you to be in combat, but entering combat ends your movement. Likewise, if you fail an evade check, you enter combat. So if the Nightgaunt throws you into a gate, your movement has ended.

There are some serious inconsistencies in the FAQ, so I have no problem saying that the FAQ is actually wrong in a couple areas, including the Nightgaunt/Find Gate one.

Clearly the rules are not well-understood in all cases. That is the point of a FAQ.

 

Regarding your comment to me:

No, you still can't do the ability. "Search the deck" is just worded for completeness's sake. How else would you obtain the relevant named card from the deck? You're not paying the money for the privilege to search the deck, you're paying the money to obtain the specific card. If none remain in the deck, you can't take one, so you can't do the action, so you must have an encounter.

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Can't say I agree there, Tibs. JustinAlexander is quoting the wording accurately; you can search, you just won't find nuthin'. In any case, obviously, costs are paid before effects take place; and once you've paid yer dollar, you've got to finish resolving the ability - you only stop when you get to the bit you can't do, namely taking the card (because it ain't there).

 

Re: Nightgaunt etc: is the distinction perhaps that fighting a monster ends your movement but does not end the movement phase? Just a thought.

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thecorinthian said:

Re: Nightgaunt etc: is the distinction perhaps that fighting a monster ends your movement but does not end the movement phase? Just a thought.

Well here's another test case, one that's not as improbably as the nightgaunt/find gate combo: Can you spend movement points to read a tome at the end of your movement phase, after you've defeated a monster? This actually happens sometimes: you fail to evade a monster and get stuck in the same space it was in, with leftover movement points, after the combat.

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Thomas Cartwright said:

 

thecorinthian said:

 

Re: Nightgaunt etc: is the distinction perhaps that fighting a monster ends your movement but does not end the movement phase? Just a thought.

 

 

Well here's another test case, one that's not as improbably as the nightgaunt/find gate combo: Can you spend movement points to read a tome at the end of your movement phase, after you've defeated a monster? This actually happens sometimes: you fail to evade a monster and get stuck in the same space it was in, with leftover movement points, after the combat.

 

 

No, you may not. Core rules, pag 8 (emphasys mine):

"Once an investigator begins combat with a monster for any reason, his movement is over. Regardless of whether or not he wins the battle, the investigator loses the rest of his movement points and must remain where he is"

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Justin Alexander said:

Julia said:

SIGH. How much I hate the new version of how to apply Kate's power on monster surges / the Find Gate after FAILING COMBAT vs a Night-gaunt (you fail a combat check, then your movement is oveeeeeer, how can you cast a bloody "movement phase "spell?

 

Because:

(a) A failed combat check doesn't end your movement;

That's true. In fact, entering combat ends your movement. Cfr core rules, pag 8

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Tibs said:

Regarding your commend to Julia:

I'm struggling to figure out why you think a failed combat check doesn't end your movement. To have made a combat check in the first place requires you to be in combat, but entering combat ends your movement. Likewise, if you fail an evade check, you enter combat. So if the Nightgaunt throws you into a gate, your movement has ended.

Thanks Tibs, to answer this for me :-)

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thecorinthian said:

Re: Nightgaunt etc: is the distinction perhaps that fighting a monster ends your movement but does not end the movement phase? Just a thought.

That's probably what they were thinking about when answering that question. If you end your movement on a location with an open gate, the movement phase ends before you're drawn through the gate, because being drawn through the gate counts as a location encounter. So when you have entered the Other World, the movement phase for that turn is already over, which means you cannot cast Find Gate that turn.

However, if a Nightgaunt sends you through a gate, you're still in the movement phase when you have entered the Other World, although your movement ended when you failed the combat check against the Nightgaunt. Therefore you can immediately cast Find Gate and return to Arkham, skipping both Other World encounters instead of only one, as is normal.

I imagine this is the reasoning they used when answering the Nightgaunt question. And if you read the rules strictly, you'll probably arrive at the same conclusion. However, that doesn't mean that this is the best way to play the game. If one or more of the investigators have the Find Gate spell, it could well be an advantage to have a Nightgaunt on the board. In my opinon, monsters should be a disadvantage rather than an advantage. Besides, the Nightgaunt can be exploited even if you don't have the Find Gate spell.

One related question, though: Can you choose to fail a combat check, or do you have to roll the dice? If the former is the case, the Nightgaunt can be exploited to a rather big extent. If the latter is the case, it doesn't necessarily make much of a difference, though. Just nudge your fight down to 3 (or less) and face the Nightgaunt empty-handed, and you can never win unless there are other effects in the game.

In any case, I'll house rule that you're not allowed to cast Find Gate the same turn a Nightgaunt sends you through a gate.

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eiterorm said:

it could well be an advantage to have a Nightgaunt on the board. In my opinon, monsters should be a disadvantage rather than an advantage.

To explain away the "monsters should be a disadvantage" thing, the FAQ says (and has said, since the previous version) "Thematically, as servants of Nodens, Nightgaunts sometimes helped investigators." Granted, it's answering a different question, and the probability is much lower for that FAQ answer to be applicable, but the idea is there.

 

 

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eiterorm said:

However, if a Nightgaunt sends you through a gate, you're still in the movement phase when you have entered the Other World, although your movement ended when you failed the combat check against the Nightgaunt. Therefore you can immediately cast Find Gate and return to Arkham, skipping both Other World encounters instead of only one, as is normal.

That's a good point. There are two issues coming with this, though:

a) it was never clarified (that I'm aware of) that the movement phase can extend after your movement ends. Rules tell us that at the beginning of the movement phase you receive movement points, and that you can spend them, and that, as soon as you enter combat or spend all the movement points you have, your movement ends. If the movement phase could be extended after all the movement points are gone, it should have been stated somewhere

b) failing the Combat Check against a Nightgaunt and casting immediately after a Find Gate spell allows you to have zero encounters in the OW, plus it allows you to seal the gate the round you entered there. When a gate opens under your feet during the Mythos Phase, you're delayed, and it was clarified by the designer of the game that this rule was made to avoid investigators having zero encounters while in the OW. Now, I don't have Tibs' logic, but I'd say that if by design you don't want investigators to not have encounters in the OW, the Nightgaunt FAQ is kinda contradictory. Plus, as soon as you seal the gate you entered, another investigator can teleport thanks to the SAME Nightgaunt in another OW. Consider a party with Patrice or a Carcosan Page to transfer the Find Gate, and you'll see Cthulhu begging for peace

eiterorm said:

One related question, though: Can you choose to fail a combat check, or do you have to roll the dice? If the former is the case, the Nightgaunt can be exploited to a rather big extent. If the latter is the case, it doesn't necessarily make much of a difference, though. Just nudge your fight down to 3 (or less) and face the Nightgaunt empty-handed, and you can never win unless there are other effects in the game.

In any case, I'll house rule that you're not allowed to cast Find Gate the same turn a Nightgaunt sends you through a gate.

Nope, you have to roll the dice. But you can choose not to use any weapons. Still, against Nightgaunts, my fave strategy is max my Speed and try to Evade: the hitcher receives the combat damage, without having to roll for Sanity

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Julia said:

That's a good point. There are two issues coming with this, though:

a) it was never clarified (that I'm aware of) that the movement phase can extend after your movement ends. Rules tell us that at the beginning of the movement phase you receive movement points, and that you can spend them, and that, as soon as you enter combat or spend all the movement points you have, your movement ends. If the movement phase could be extended after all the movement points are gone, it should have been stated somewhere

"A turn in Arkham Horror is divided into five phases. During each phase, every player, starting with the first player and continuing clockwise, performs the actions that take place during that phase. Once all players have completed a phase, the next phase begins."

I always interpreted this to mean that the end of a phase is decided by the players, and not by events in the game. In other words, a phase ends only when the last player has completed his/her last action in that phase. But the question is still valid, though. Do you get any more movement actions after you have failed a combat check?

 

Julia said:

b) failing the Combat Check against a Nightgaunt and casting immediately after a Find Gate spell allows you to have zero encounters in the OW, plus it allows you to seal the gate the round you entered there. When a gate opens under your feet during the Mythos Phase, you're delayed, and it was clarified by the designer of the game that this rule was made to avoid investigators having zero encounters while in the OW. Now, I don't have Tibs' logic, but I'd say that if by design you don't want investigators to not have encounters in the OW, the Nightgaunt FAQ is kinda contradictory. Plus, as soon as you seal the gate you entered, another investigator can teleport thanks to the SAME Nightgaunt in another OW. Consider a party with Patrice or a Carcosan Page to transfer the Find Gate, and you'll see Cthulhu begging for peace

Yeah, that's why I'll house rule the Nightgaunt. Consider a team including Norman and Patrice. During setup Norman draws a Carcosan Page. Now you're just waiting for that Nightgaunt to fly out of that first gate. =P If Cthulhu values his life, he'll never send that Nightgaunt at you.

 

Julia said:

Nope, you have to roll the dice. But you can choose not to use any weapons. Still, against Nightgaunts, my fave strategy is max my Speed and try to Evade: the hitcher receives the combat damage, without having to roll for Sanity

This is obviously preferable! Why didn't I think of that? *stupid* I've even done the exact same thing myself, in previous games.

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eiterorm said:



"A turn in Arkham Horror is divided into five phases. During each phase, every player, starting with the first player and continuing clockwise, performs the actions that take place during that phase. Once all players have completed a phase, the next phase begins."



I always interpreted this to mean that the end of a phase is decided by the players, and not by events in the game. In other words, a phase ends only when the last player has completed his/her last action in that phase. But the question is still valid, though. Do you get any more movement actions after you have failed a combat check?





That's true, sorry, let me rephrase this: there is nowhere said that you can do something inside your movement phase after you spend all your movement points / do something that makes you finish your movement. Rules simply say "you receive N movement points, you can spend all or some of them, but as soon as you enter combat with a monter, your movement ends". Again, I'm no Tibs, but I'd argue that this implies you don't have any chance of doing any movement action after a failed combat check.



Just to be a little trolly… let's say the Nighgaunt failed check does not end your movement. So, you enter the OW, and it's still your movement phase. You cast Call Friend, and summon a friend of yours in the same OW (if you're allowed to cast Find Gate after losing a combat check against a Nightgaunt because it's a movement phase spell, then you should be allowed to cast any Movement Phase spell of the deck). Then you cast Find Gate, return to Arkham and, as soon as you return to Arkham, you cast Plumb the Void, teleporting your pal back to Arkham. If you're lucky, this could mean two seals with zero OW encounters. Impressive.


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eiterorm said:

I imagine this is the reasoning they used when answering the Nightgaunt question. And if you read the rules strictly, you'll probably arrive at the same conclusion. However, that doesn't mean that this is the best way to play the game. If one or more of the investigators have the Find Gate spell, it could well be an advantage to have a Nightgaunt on the board. In my opinon, monsters should be a disadvantage rather than an advantage. Besides, the Nightgaunt can be exploited even if you don't have the Find Gate spell.

Nightgaunts are frequently useful even if you don't have a Find Gate spell: For a minimal risk of losing 1 sanity, you can get dumped straight into a gate that has a stack of otherwise impassable monsters on it. The regular players in my group will frequently go out of their way to avoid killing a Nightgaunt even if there's no immediate use for them.

eiterorm said:

One related question, though: Can you choose to fail a combat check, or do you have to roll the dice?

In a couple occasions in the past we've gone hunting for a rule clarifying this. AFAICT, it doesn't exist. In the absence of it, I'm fairly certain that you're not allowed to choose failure.

Thomas Cartwright said:

Well here's another test case, one that's not as improbably as the nightgaunt/find gate combo: Can you spend movement points to read a tome at the end of your movement phase, after you've defeated a monster? This actually happens sometimes: you fail to evade a monster and get stuck in the same space it was in, with leftover movement points, after the combat.

No. Entering combat expends all your movement points, so you don't have any left to read the tome with.

Tibs said:

I'm struggling to figure out why you think a failed combat check doesn't end your movement.

Entering combat may expend all your movement points, but there's absolutely nothing in the rules that suggests expending all your movement points immediately causes your Movement Phase to end. Nor is there anything to suggest that entering combat causes your Movement Phase to end. In fact, there are plenty of reasons that it's clearly not true.

For example, there's Call Down the Storm: A spell that takes up a hand, must be cast during the Movement Phase, and adds +2 to any Combat check that takes place in your neighborhood until the end of the phase.

If your interpretation of the rules were correct, this would be a spell designed to be used during combat (hence the hand requirement) which cannot affect that combat.

Tibs said:

No, you still can't do the ability. "Search the deck" is just worded for completeness's sake. How else would you obtain the relevant named card from the deck? You're not paying the money for the privilege to search the deck, you're paying the money to obtain the specific card. If none remain in the deck, you can't take one, so you can't do the action, so you must have an encounter.

I'm skeptical of any rule interpretation that starts with "ignore what the rules actually say…" and ends with "…and then make up something else to replace it". This is something you and Julia seem to do a lot when answering rules questions. It's a bad habit. You should try to break it.

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