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Mako13

Tie Defender Values?

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Here is the idea for a non game breaking tie defender.

Atk2:1

Def3

Hull3

Shield2

Same actions as tie interceptor plus target lock

Same movement as interceptor w green 3 banks instead of white and red 2 instead of red 3

Add In torpedoes or other random upgrades that make it stand out. Then it becomes a durable slightly more potent interceptor and a more offensive advance X1. The tie adv needs a title for an extra EPT. Slot. And all three ships have a place.

The specialness with this fighter is a new purple atk die. So for atk you roll 2 red and 1 purple atk die. The purple atk die has 1 less blank and 1 more crit. Increasing chance to hit and crit without increasing the max hit potential.

Cool thing is this means you can create 3-4 purple die Capitol ship weapon batteries that are deadly but statistically survivable.

Edited by Gungo

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Personally to me the stats would look like

 

ATK 3

DEF 3

HULL 3

SHIELD 4

 

with a movement dial similar to tie interceptor.  Probably base cost of 30-33 for a PS 1 or 2.  That's what comes to my mind when I think of the defender.  4 Defense base to me seems way too outrageous, especially when you think of things like range 3 and stealth device giving it 6 dice to roll.  However it could have 4 hull as well.  My question would be if it would have all 5, focus, evade, target lock, boost, barrel roll, on the action bar or just 4 of them and if so, what 4?

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One big factor that doesn't seem to come up is niche protection.So far every version of this seems to have the offense and manueverability of the interceptor, with the survivability of the Advanced if not more.  I will admit I am a new player, but without a substantial point difference the only reason I would take the Advanced if this was available is Vader. Finding the middle ground while emulating the original is tricky, but the goal should be getting this model on the board without taking others off. At 22 points, why would I ever take the Advanced, at 30, why not take the fire spray? This isn't aimed at any particular design, it just seems in general like the poor Advanced is getting forgotten.

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One big factor that doesn't seem to come up is niche protection.So far every version of this seems to have the offense and manueverability of the interceptor, with the survivability of the Advanced if not more.  I will admit I am a new player, but without a substantial point difference the only reason I would take the Advanced if this was available is Vader. Finding the middle ground while emulating the original is tricky, but the goal should be getting this model on the board without taking others off. At 22 points, why would I ever take the Advanced, at 30, why not take the fire spray? This isn't aimed at any particular design, it just seems in general like the poor Advanced is getting forgotten.

 

If your basic PL 1 version of the defender was the power of the Interceptor with the durability of the Advanced at 26 points (Interceptor with equivalent of two shield upgrades) the minimum Advanced saves 3 points but gives +1 PL.  Perhaps the issue here is that besides Vader are any of the TIE Advanced models ever played to begin with?  When the answer is almost an overwhelming "NO" it gets to hard to say a Defender would take its niche (despite costing a little more) as that niche really does not currently exist.

 

Now in a lot of ways the Defender could be a mirror to the Firespray.  This doesn't mean the Firespray disappears but rather which ship gets used depends on what you're looking for in your squadron.  The raw firepower between the Defender and Firespray could be similar but then which you'd choose to use depends on how you want your defense.  If the Firespray still has twice the hull and shield then giving up a die of defense isn't as big although as the Defender is tougher than the typical Interceptor it is more likely to increase the ship's survival.  In some ways the Firespray or Defender decision could come down to one similar to what a rebel player would make when deciding "X-Wing or B-Wing?" 

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Let's try this

At: 2 (you'll see why latter)

Def: 3 (I agree 4 is just to high, it means 2 attack dice ships are likely useless against it. which is a lot of ships)

Hull: 2 (to me it looks ever more sleak than a TIE fighter)

Shields: 3 (this is actually a lot for any small agile ship in the game)

Actions: Target Lock, Barrel Roll, Evade, Focus, Boost

Upgrades: missiles, cannon

Dial: just make it a little better than the TIE Interceptor

In the Game TIE Fighter it really is just a little better than the TIE Advanced. If you look at the TIE Advanced it is pretty comparable to an X-wing.

I gave it the cannon so you could put an Ion cannon on it. I think a heavy laiser cannon on it is a bit of over kill, but the Imperials could use a manuverale fighter with one.

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One big factor that doesn't seem to come up is niche protection.So far every version of this seems to have the offense and manueverability of the interceptor, with the survivability of the Advanced if not more.  I will admit I am a new player, but without a substantial point difference the only reason I would take the Advanced if this was available is Vader. Finding the middle ground while emulating the original is tricky, but the goal should be getting this model on the board without taking others off. At 22 points, why would I ever take the Advanced, at 30, why not take the fire spray? This isn't aimed at any particular design, it just seems in general like the poor Advanced is getting forgotten.

The advanced is overpriced and has its own issues. All they can do to fix it is provide a title card to boost them. The most relevant and powerful title they could give it is the ability to take an extra elite pilot talent. This would make these ships unique and potentially useful but expensive for 2 atk ship.

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If you want a title card to upgrade the Advanced then I'd suggest making it the "Avenger" title which will cost a few points but give it that 3rd attack die and maybe an elite pilot talent.  Now if it added an elite pilot upgrade just think how interesting things could get if you could have TWO pilot upgrades on Vader.

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A 3 atk vader ship with 2 elite pilot talents would make for some crazy overpower combos. But I like the idea of naming the adv x1 title card the avenger except its wings were pointed not rounded. I think the only way to tame broken dual EPT combos is putting it on a low atk overpriced ship like the advx1. Sad thing is it kinda makes sense on the adv x1 since the named pilots in the advx1 pack are the best pilots in the imperium. Keep it 2 atk and make it a free title on all advx1 of pilot skill 4+ and you still make the tie adv x1 relevant in games.

Edited by Gungo

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The basic tie advanced does have its own issue (at least on paper) but it still has a niche between the the Interceptor and the Bomber. The Defender stats I have seen so far completely eliminate that niche. The are Advanced stats, but better, and a better wheel.

 

Hrathen's seems the closest to not knocking out the the Advanced while providing different options, loosing modification for cannon and hull for shield. If it were similarly costed, I could see making a choice. It would usually be the defender, but not always. (although, yeah, usually the cheaper ties or a character).

 

I think the Advanced with a basic pilot will always be an uncommon choice, but you don't want to completely punch that choice in the faces, especially since the Defender would also get fancy pilots to compete for the Advanced slot.

 

The X-Wing and B-Wing are actually great for comparisson. The B-Wing ggets a lot of extra upgrades and barrel roll, but its dial is much more limiting than the X wings, or at least a lot more stressfull. Also, Astromech. At the Firespray point level, the Defender is less invasive, but at the Advanced point level, the Defender just stomps all over the Advanced. In what already appears to be an unpopular choice, you don't want to make things worse. And lets be honest, the base Tie-D is not going to have a 1 pilot skill.

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The defender should stomp the adv. the adv needs a seperate boost. Personally I think a free avenger title card for the adv x1 that gives all 4+ ps pilots an extra elite pilot choice would make the tie adv a skillful superiority fighter. The interceptor will still be a cheaper more offensive ship and the defender has room to be a more expensive hybrid of both without the option for dual modifications or dual elite pilot talents. With similar points to the firespray and stats of 3/3/3/2 the defender would still be a a weaker version of the firespray but more maneuverable version.

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So I have to ask why kinda OP pos is the rebel faction gonna get to counter something like that? some attack 5 def 2 ship with 3 hull and 6 shields?

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What are u talking about the tie defender at. 3/3/3/2? You do realize xwings are 3/2/3/2 and I expect if they do make a defender you will see the yt-2400 which is the only trilogy ship not made and it's just a more agile falcon probably with stats like 3/2/5/4 or similar.

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So I have to ask why kinda OP pos is the rebel faction gonna get to counter something like that? some attack 5 def 2 ship with 3 hull and 6 shields?

 

That would be an EXTREMELY good question as those are NOT the kind of stats I hope anyone would expect to see on a TIE Defender.  Before anyone ever thinks about getting a ship with 5 attack we'd better find out what one with a 4 die primary attack would do first.

 

While it may seem to "step on toes" I'd hope most people could get behind, or at least be ok with, a 3/3/3/2 or even 3/3/2/3 (vulnerable to Proton Bombs!) Defender.  It wouldn't be anything entirely new except you'd be seeing that on one ship and it probably should have some upgrades to go along with it.  It would be an Imperial ship that you'd need to fly a lot like the rebels as you really wouldn't run it as a swarm and may only run as a pair if upgraded very much.

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What are u talking about the tie defender at. 3/3/3/2? You do realize xwings are 3/2/3/2 and I expect if they do make a defender you will see the yt-2400 which is the only trilogy ship not made and it's just a more agile falcon probably with stats like 3/2/5/4 or similar.

 

 

Exactly and it's pretty much the only thing the rebels have going for themselves over imps at the moment, so if we're just gonna up and give the imps a ship that's flat out better than what the rebels fly what are you gonna give the rebels that's gonna make them worth flying?

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It's all really a function of cost.. As long as you pay for the stats it has, it would be fine. I have no issue with it sharing a similar place and point value in a list to a Firespray. If you look at it the Firespray has more hull, rear arc and access to crew, the Defender is more maneuverable and agile.

 

What Rebels have going for them is FAR more access to 360 arcs, Astromechs. A decent fighter with System upgrades. Even with 3/3/3/2 the Rebels are far tougher in general.. they have a few 3 Hull / 5 Shield ships.

 

The Defender is fast, fairly brutal but also fairly easy to take down if you get the shots on it, which is similar to most Imperials.

 

A B-Wing at the moment has far more damage, and more hits. The Defender, is more maneuverable and agile.

 

It's also worth noting the Rebels will probably get the Z-95 which will give them access to swarm type lists.

Edited by Rodent Mastermind
Syleh Forge likes this

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Also, people is getting obssesed for getting a specific 'niche' for each ship.

 

And that's not really neccesary in a miniature game. You can simply have the option to field ship A or ship B for the same purpose. It's a matter of tastes, preferences, or making thematic lists.

 

In most miniature games, there are a variety of units that fulfill exactly the same function. And you field one or another according to your personal tastes. The Developers simply give you options to make the game more diverse without having to justify the existence of every single miniature.

 

In StarWars Lore, Maarek Stele could have chosen to fly a TIE Defender, instead, he chose the TIE Avenger as his signature ship, just for personal preferences. The same with Darth Vader who only flew the Defender once, but the rest of time he preferred to fly his Advanced X1.

 

As Rodent pointed out, as long as all your options are balanced in cost, there is absolutely no problem in having several units that fulfill the same function. You want to fly Defenders? good. You want to fly Avengers? The better. You want to fill the table with TIE Fighters? Sure, go on. Choose your option, your playstyle and have fun with whatever you want to play.

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As Rodent pointed out, as long as all your options are balanced in cost, there is absolutely no problem in having several units that fulfill the same function. You want to fly Defenders? good. You want to fly Avengers? The better. You want to fill the table with TIE Fighters? Sure, go on. Choose your option, your playstyle and have fun with whatever you want to play.

 

You said it, mate.

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It's all really a function of cost.. As long as you pay for the stats it has, it would be fine. I have no issue with it sharing a similar place and point value in a list to a Firespray. If you look at it the Firespray has more hull, rear arc and access to crew, the Defender is more maneuverable and agile.

 

What Rebels have going for them is FAR more access to 360 arcs, Astromechs. A decent fighter with System upgrades. Even with 3/3/3/2 the Rebels are far tougher in general.. they have a few 3 Hull / 5 Shield ships.

 

The Defender is fast, fairly brutal but also fairly easy to take down if you get the shots on it, which is similar to most Imperials.

 

A B-Wing at the moment has far more damage, and more hits. The Defender, is more maneuverable and agile.

 

It's also worth noting the Rebels will probably get the Z-95 which will give them access to swarm type lists.

 

Exactly, the B-wing would have more flexibility and lower cost than a Defender.  The Defenders should basically have at most a pilot skill, missile and tractor beam upgrade slot.  The Tie Defender should fly as a 2 up squadron most likely with maybe a random Interceptor or shuttle thrown in.  On the other side the rebels will likely have 4 ships.

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Ok, so here's my take on the Defender:

For a maneuver dial I would go with one similar to the Interceptor, but cut out the 2-banks and give it the 4 K-turn as well. Maybe even make the 5 K-turn white (not sure about this)??

The Empire used early prototypes during the Battle of Hoth that had no ion cannons and were slower. A low PS Defender could be one of these with modest stats at 3/3/3/2 (to designate still using TIE Advanced shielding), a missile slot, and the actions Focus, Target Lock, and Barrel Roll.

If we assume that the actual Defender had twice the shielding of an Advanced (and was more maneuverable/faster) while still having the basic hull strength,we could give the other pilots stats of 3/4/3/4, upgrades of Ion Cannons, a Missile, and a System Upgrade slot. Now before we say that "there cannot be a ship with 4 evade dice," hear me out here.

First, the Defender would not have normal access to the Focus action. The action bar would have Evade, Target Lock, Boost, and Barrel Roll. Second, those four dice are not affected by range (they don't get 5 at R3), and would not be allowed to equip Stealth Device.

Third, the Defender was only given ray shields, allowing solid projectiles to impact directly with the hull (that's from Wookieepedia). Thus, torpedoes, missiles, and collisions would all bypass those four shields and do damage straight to the hull. I think that would fit the Defender perfectly: the most superior dogfighter in existence, but still a TIE when the day is done.

I'm not sure what should be done with the Tractor Beam, but I have thought up a card that I would like to see if they made a Defender expansion:

Flak missiles (probably not their actual name) were invented by the Rebellion/New Republic to exploit he weakness of the Defender's lack of particle shields: the missile contained shrapnel and would explode right in front of the Defender. The pilot had no time to avoid it and was forced to fly through the debris and suffer the damage

Flak Missiles (3pts?)

Spend your target lock to use this card (can be used twice before discarded). Place 1 flak token in front of the defender (place the 1-straight maneuver in front of the defender and place a flak token there; if any ship overlaps it, roll 1 attack die and suffer the damage)

I would also like to see a "Tan" EPS that did something for the Empire.

These are just the musings of an overactive mind, feel free to criticize as needed. One thing is for sure: if FFG ever decides to release a TIE Defender, it will be just as balanced as any ship in the game so far.

EDIT: this would make an UNMODIFIED Defender at PS 7 (Maarek Stele's PS) come out to 55–56 points.

Edited by Revanchist

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Some interesting ideas Revanchist but all of those "exceptions" would doom your version of the Defender.  A ship without focus is easy enough to show but considering that focus is something everyone else can do you can still be it will be used accidentally; I seriously doubt you'd see a fighter without focus unless you've got a droid flying it.  Suggesting the Defender get four defense dice is in the realm of possibility (however unlikely) but saying that using it voids the range 3 rule giving it an extra die and also saying you couldn't give it the Stealth Device modification would be a rules nightmare.  Having many kinds of "normal" damage go straight to dealing cards is also something that wouldn't fly well with the rules.

 

The TIE Defender should be a good ship and trump all the non-Bomb TIEs out right now but doing so will come at a high point cost.  It would certainly be easy enough to do this without turning the Defender into some kind of rules nightmare.

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I don't want to see an Avenger title... I want to see an avenger model.

 

I expect multiple titles for the advanced in what will surely be "Imperial Aces 2".

 

Title: Prototype: allow extra modification not available to to other ties (not just Royal Guard interceptor 2.0)

Title: Advanced x1: Not sure but something MORE

Title: Lord Vader's Tie: Can take Elite Pilot Skill

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Some interesting ideas Revanchist but all of those "exceptions" would doom your version of the Defender.  A ship without focus is easy enough to show but considering that focus is something everyone else can do you can still be it will be used accidentally; I seriously doubt you'd see a fighter without focus unless you've got a droid flying it.  Suggesting the Defender get four defense dice is in the realm of possibility (however unlikely) but saying that using it voids the range 3 rule giving it an extra die and also saying you couldn't give it the Stealth Device modification would be a rules nightmare.  Having many kinds of "normal" damage go straight to dealing cards is also something that wouldn't fly well with the rules.

 

The TIE Defender should be a good ship and trump all the non-Bomb TIEs out right now but doing so will come at a high point cost.  It would certainly be easy enough to do this without turning the Defender into some kind of rules nightmare.

True, I'm just getting tired of all the people who bash the Defender, saying it would imbalance the game, and was trying to find a way to make everyone happy. Another idea is to give it one special die (and two normals) for the defense rolls, upping its evasion chances while still only giving it three evade dice. I still feel that something should be done about he Defender's lack of particle shields: maybe that's just me.

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