Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0
signoftheserpent

Distribution

108 posts in this topic

My buying the game does not invalidate my opinion on the distribution. It sucks, plain and simple. There is no reason to short change customers and to not at the very least make the extra cards available in some way.

I've played card games for many years including against world champions and people far better than I. I know how these games work and I can tell you that if you want it to succeed there will need to be the kind of interest in the game that informs people wanting 3x every card. Not providing that is short changing the player. All this means is there will be people that will happily buy 3x core sets just for 20 extra cards. That is not a good thing for the community at all; you talk about the core set designed to provide an 'in' for new players, but if people buy 2 or more copies of that set you then have a small 'elite' hoarding copies of the game that would and should otherwise have gone to expanding the playerbase. I've seen this happen before; the people i used to play with would ruotinely buy 4 or more boxes of every expansion as soon as possible. They would hoard cards for theior collection and not trade (as you might with the core set, though frankly that's not a good way either to encourage new players - they might miss out on the faction they'd be best suited to in order to trade for something else).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

LCG players buying excessive core sets to hoarde the cards and keep them from other people?  I actually laughed out loud.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Keggy said:

LCG players buying excessive core sets to hoarde the cards and keep them from other people?  I actually laughed out loud.

That's not what I said though. I said they buy the core sets to get enough multiples. the consequence is that there are less core sets to go around. that's funny to you?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

They will buy, at most, two extra core sets. It is highly unlikely that they or that this technique will break a community and make other core sets unattainable.

You keep using biased words like 'short change'. They are not short changing people. They are offering the product as advertised.

You haven't addressed some of the concerns and questions I asked.

I did not say your purchase invalidates your concern.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

vermillian said:

They will buy, at most, two extra core sets. It is highly unlikely that they or that this technique will break a community and make other core sets unattainable.

You keep using biased words like 'short change'. They are not short changing people. They are offering the product as advertised.

You haven't addressed some of the concerns and questions I asked.

I did not say your purchase invalidates your concern.

I gave you alternatives that FFG could have tried.

Why for instance include 3 copies of an 8 cost piece of ice, but only 2 copies of a card that costs zero?

Why even include cards in a single multiple? Two cards? Ok that's not the end of the world, but why include 1 copy of a card that really isn't much use alone.

There are 4 corp factions, but only 3 runners. They could have saved one of the corps for an expansion and used those 28 cards to beef out the remainder.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

They could have done lots of things.  They chose not to.  Your points have either been noted or not by the powers that be.  Dragging this out is a waste of everyone's time and energy.  You seem like a reasonably analytical and intelligent person, outside of this debate.  Please direct your energies towards useful discussions of the game.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I do see what you are saying about the corporation though. However, what FFG appeared to want was a core set that was playable with easily understood rules on how to make the decks such that they'd be balanced on creating. Apparently 3X each card copied into the core set made a game that wasn't as good……?

Have you emailed any of the designers or employees of FFG on this matter? Several of them are on face book…

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I haven't emailed anyone, I don't use facebook. Unfortunately FFG don't ever seem to read the feedback given on their own forums.

I can't imagine they would change their minds: obviously they feel they made the best decisions and certainly wouldn't admit to anything less than honest.

Corporation decks would have greatly benefitted from there only being 3 factions IMO. As it stands, all of them have to rely on a much leaner choice of cards and I'm not convinced, from what I've seen, that they can exploit their specialties as well as they should. I bet most people ignore the one or two cards that their faction only has one of completely and give that space to something else. None of the corps have enough factional agendas to build a deck (you can't use other factions agendas). That's a big deal. IT's not unplayable, but it loses what makes it special. For instance the Weyland deck uses transactions to generate income, but there are only 4 transaction cards available to it. I therefore would overlook Weyland for another choice until such time as enough transaction cards become available. That's a shame. So why include Weyland? Why not retask those cards and spread them across the other 3 facrtions? The smaller corp decks also mean that building a strong 45 card deck (the most they can include is 20 points worth of agendas so deck size is limited) is harder which waters them down. That's a shame, because fewer of the game's mechanics shine through.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

signoftheserpent said:

I haven't emailed anyone, I don't use facebook. Unfortunately FFG don't ever seem to read the feedback given on their own forums.

You don't have to send email or use facebook to give FFG feedback, there is a link at the very bottom of this page called "User Support".  Please use this link to send your opinion to FFG, as this is the official way to do so.  This forum is not the proper way, as stated in the agreement presented to you when you use this forum the first time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Angus Lee said:

signoftheserpent said:

 

I haven't emailed anyone, I don't use facebook. Unfortunately FFG don't ever seem to read the feedback given on their own forums.

 

 

You don't have to send email or use facebook to give FFG feedback, there is a link at the very bottom of this page called "User Support".  Please use this link to send your opinion to FFG, as this is the official way to do so.  This forum is not the proper way, as stated in the agreement presented to you when you use this forum the first time.

I'm well aware of the options, thank you. I'm also well aware that this forum is not 'the proper way' which will be why I haven't used it thus.

You can stop with the snide attitude as well. There are at least 20 odd threads in this board plus the option to create your own, I don't really care to have my threads trolled. Thank you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

signoftheserpent said:

Angus Lee said:

 

signoftheserpent said:

 

I haven't emailed anyone, I don't use facebook. Unfortunately FFG don't ever seem to read the feedback given on their own forums.

 

 

You don't have to send email or use facebook to give FFG feedback, there is a link at the very bottom of this page called "User Support".  Please use this link to send your opinion to FFG, as this is the official way to do so.  This forum is not the proper way, as stated in the agreement presented to you when you use this forum the first time.

 

I'm well aware of the options, thank you. I'm also well aware that this forum is not 'the proper way' which will be why I haven't used it thus.

 

You can stop with the snide attitude as well. There are at least 20 odd threads in this board plus the option to create your own, I don't really care to have my threads trolled. Thank you.

There are at least 20 odd threads in this board ON THIS TOPIC.  If you don't want your threads trolled, don't create troll threads.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

But have you actually taken time to ask the staff what their reasons are in this distribution?

IDK, just seems like you're not willing to hear alternative concepts or reasons why your solutions make more sense using marketting data more than "I think its not fair". I presume they have such reasons, and you do not (though well reasoned your reasons seem to be).

But you're right about the smaller card pool availability for corps…

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Since this seems to be the thread of choice to address this topic, I'll post my thoughts here and then leave the issue alone.  The fact that there are twenty-odd threads on this subject is a fairly clear indicator that whatever FFG is doing, it isn't working.  The nature of the issue is such that it won't be possible to please all the people all the time, but the fact that this issue keeps popping up in forums and in game reviews means that there's room for improvement on FFG's part.

Shipping three copies of each card may not be practical given the need to provide a variety of cards, granted.  And one copy of each card (as with the Core Set for Call of Cthulhu) would limit the viability of decks that can be built out of the box.

There's an easy solution:  two copies of each card.  That means that viable decks can be built out of the box, and only one additional Core Set will be needed, and that can be split with a friend.

Honestly, I think the only reason FFG doesn't budge on this issue is because they're reluctant to admit they were wrong.  They changed the distribution on expansion packs and saw sales go up (or they wouldn't have made it standard policy), but can't bring themselves to make the same jump for the core sets, continuing to insist that they think the current distribution is optimal.  The fact that these threads keep proliferating is a good reason for them to reconsider.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Lack of quoting continues because boards suck.

Runix: Here's the flaw in your logic that most people in our position (fans who are serious about the game, competitive and completionist) don't seem to consider:  The vast majority of customers aren't like us.  If they were, then I'd be first in line to slap FFG's wrist for distributing this way.  But the bottom line is that we can't have what we want because we're way in the minority.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Talamare said:

What they should have done is included only 1 copy of each card, and forced people to buy 3 Cores each

This is what they did for the Game of Thrones core set, and it worked masterfully.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

vermillian said:

But have you actually taken time to ask the staff what their reasons are in this distribution?

IDK, just seems like you're not willing to hear alternative concepts or reasons why your solutions make more sense using marketting data more than "I think its not fair". I presume they have such reasons, and you do not (though well reasoned your reasons seem to be).

But you're right about the smaller card pool availability for corps…

I haven't asked staff anything at the moment, there are other things to get on with in life than chase the reasons for a decision that can't be overturned. They can't go back and unprint the cards and reorder the set.

Have you asked them? Has anyone else? What did they say? I have heard everything that has been said on this thread, despite the trolling from people who would be better off not reading something they obviously dislike.

I'm sure they do have their reasons. But the reality is that what is is what is.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Runix said:

There's an easy solution:  two copies of each card.  That means that viable decks can be built out of the box, and only one additional Core Set will be needed, and that can be split with a friend.

Honestly, I think the only reason FFG doesn't budge on this issue is because they're reluctant to admit they were wrong.  They changed the distribution on expansion packs and saw sales go up (or they wouldn't have made it standard policy), but can't bring themselves to make the same jump for the core sets, continuing to insist that they think the current distribution is optimal.  The fact that these threads keep proliferating is a good reason for them to reconsider.

2 copies would necessitate a smaller deck. The reason cardgames use multiples is to mitigate the random factor. That's what separates them from just playing regular cards. It's about managing your deck and your strategy. So the deck size would really need to be smaller for that to be effective.

It just doesn't make sense to make certain cards less than 3x such as agendas and it makes no sense to have single copies of cards that are only really effective in multiple. I can accept Toolbox being x1 or perhaps Femme Fatale, but other cards like Zaibatsu Loyalty are no good to me otherwise. They could have put that in an expansion pack instead.

The Star Wars game has a completely different decbuilding mechanic so they may well have started to change things there, but even then you can have multiple objectives as a way of having multiple mains. That may well even be worse since (without knowing the makeup of the star wars core set) you really will need to buy extra core sets.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

profligate said:

Lack of quoting continues because boards suck.

Runix: Here's the flaw in your logic that most people in our position (fans who are serious about the game, competitive and completionist) don't seem to consider:  The vast majority of customers aren't like us.  If they were, then I'd be first in line to slap FFG's wrist for distributing this way.  But the bottom line is that we can't have what we want because we're way in the minority.

i doubt there are many 'casual' such players buying into this particular game. That might be true for Game of Thrones or LotR perhaps.

It may be that a lot of people don't really care. But that doesn't mean they would otherwise have objected to a more favourable distribution.

1x cards may well have worked if a) the core set was much smaller and cheaper and b) the core set made it clear that's what you got. Then people could make an informed decision. As it stands the decision on what cards are in which multiples is arbitrary and in some cases very ill conceived.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Runix said:

Honestly, I think the only reason FFG doesn't budge on this issue is because they're reluctant to admit they were wrong.  

Congratulations, you just said the most idiotic thing I've read on the internet in the last week (excepting some truly heinous posts on FB regarding  CT).

Can you look yourself in the mirror and say you honestly believe that FFG is purposefully costing themselves money because they can't admit they were wrong? Have you played an FFG game before? Have you looked at the price of their gajmes and the quantity and quality of pieces?

FFG is all about including everything possible needed to play their games and then some and all the various expansions for every game with a dozen players proves they don't want to leave a sinle dime on the table.

If Christian could make a few hundred dollars more by standing up in front of the entirety of Gencon and say, "I'm wrong!"" I think he'd do it. I've been at the Flight Reports for the last four years and while he is a big fan of games it is obvious he is a big fan of a successful and profitable company. I can't imagine he'd let something like ego get in the way of increased profits and as a private company you can bet the other partners wouldn't let him.

 

You like sign, and everyone else harping on distirubution doesn't get that we, the avid (or rabid) gamer is but a fraction of the players of this, and ALL of their games. They have sold many thousands of this core set and yet on here and BGG you see only a couple hundred or so people posting with any regularity and only a couple score posting in these distirbution threads, and out of that less than half are disparaging.

The problem with my geek brethern is myopicity. An inability to recognize that your personal wants just aren't that important, and certainly don't entitle you to anything. You are not only in the minority, but in the minority of the minority.

Accept it and get on with your life or give in to the nerd rage and keep posting as if your opinion mattered. I don't really care. I will sit back with my core ste and first chapter pack and play a game that is brillliantly designed and themed, in a format that highlights play skill, for a game where my ability to read my opponent and bluff trumps card effects 50%.

Would I prefer a distirubution that favors my own play style and gamer needs? Of course. Does that blind me from the fact that most gamers are much more casual about it than me and anything that makes the game fun and easily accessible means I have more people to play against and it is their numbers that keeps this game alive, not my passion? Nope. I am all to aware of it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

signoftheserpent said:

i doubt there are many 'casual' such players buying into this particular game. That might be true for Game of Thrones or LotR perhaps.

 

It may be that a lot of people don't really care. But that doesn't mean they would otherwise have objected to a more favourable distribution.

1x cards may well have worked if a) the core set was much smaller and cheaper and b) the core set made it clear that's what you got. Then people could make an informed decision. As it stands the decision on what cards are in which multiples is arbitrary and in some cases very ill conceived.

 

1) You are entirely wrong. I have watched at my local game store two coeds buy the game crack it open and start learning how to play because they heard it was cool from some geek guy they like. Seriously. In an hour they were playing the game and sounding as jazzed by it and into it as any of us. They had never played a C/LCG game before. I'm not sure if they will be come serious gamers but this is just one example of what appears to be hundreds. Seriously this game is already on its, what third printing? You still get no more than a couple hundred people postiung here and at BGG with any regularity… where do you think all those core sets went to?

2) Preference is a funny thing, it is based on your personal perception of needs and wants. Those girls wanted a cool game that was easy to figure out how to play and have fun. The core set did that in spades. They shuffled their neutrals with their factions and just dived right in. They didn't need to strip cards out to make an ideal deck, they didn't have to learn how to deck build. They didn't have to buy multiple core sets to get a playable game. It WAS the favorable distribution for them.

3) You haven't played the core set game have you? Those decks work very well as is. You might have wished for more cards of a different type, but you cannot honestly and objectively say that the decks are bad and with the proportions screwed up to make them unplayable.

TL:DR

You obviously have problems with objectivity and as an end result will never be convinced that anyway but your own personal preference is the best idea. Ain't going to happen. So either suck it up and play a great game, or let it go. You aren't going to convince us you are right, and you aren't going to convince FFG.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Penfold said:

If Christian could make a few hundred dollars more by standing up in front of the entirety of Gencon and say, "I'm wrong!"" I think he'd do it. I've been at the Flight Reports for the last four years and while he is a big fan of games it is obvious he is a big fan of a successful and profitable company. I can't imagine he'd let something like ego get in the way of increased profits and as a private company you can bet the other partners wouldn't let him.

He could make a few hundred dollars very easily by printing the extra cards as a mini expansion. This could have been released alongside the coreset. It would have been more attractive than buying a complete second core set and would likely have made as much money. I'd happily pay, say, £15 for those cards. Why was that not done?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0