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Salamanderjunior

Clarifying expert handling and others "free actions"

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I need to hear your opinion.


Example 1: Darth Vader equipped with expert handling. He could take an focus action, an evasive action and a barrel roll handling of expert?

 

Example 2: "Night Beast" after executing a green maneuver. Free focus action+evasive action. He is closer (distance 1) to Vader (equipped with squad leader). Vader uses squad leader e give the free action the night beast. The only possible action to night beast is Barrel roll. Right?
 

The reason for the question of example 1 is that some people (in the BGG forum) are arguing that expert handling is a action. So with Vader (two distinct actions per turn) you have perform expert handling + other action that is not barrel roll (example).
Was that it? Expert handling is an complete action or is a free barrel roll action?

http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/886029/expert-handling

Please your opinions.

Thank you.

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As a newer player - there is two things for me.  It says "action" which makes me imply its an "action" - no?  The second is the card text, which reads perform a barrel roll. If you do not have the "barrel roll icon" (which Vader does) action icon, receive a stress token.  So as I see it, if Vader does this action and does a barrel roll, its still an action, but he doesn't receive a stress token for doing so.  I might ask or comment thats its kind of a waste for him to have it, but in the end, he gets two, and if you feel the benefit of dropping the target lock is good, then perhaps the two points is worth it.

I could be off, this is just how I see it, no need to argue here.

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 there are 2 types: free action, and action

 

free action = eg. the errata-ed expert handling, or squad leader, or darth vader's ability, or night beast's ability. You may only perform the free action provided you have not performed a similar action. eg. for night beast you may not perform focus after you have done his free focus action. similiarly, darth vader may not do a barrel roll after having performed the free barell roll action from expert handling.

 

action: eg. Dutch vander's ability, what makes you perform a target lock action, even if you have already done a target lock action in that same turn.

 

clarification: garven's ability does not fit under either of these 2 types listed here, and is in fact not an action per se

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 Expert handling is a full, normal action and using it counts as your action for the round. As part of the action, you are given a free barrel roll action. Expert handling itself is not a free action.

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Thanks for the comments.


Just clarifying: I'm not defending the barrel roll twice. The FAQ on page 3 makes clear that it is not allowed. And isn't allowed the same action twice in the same turn.

What I'm trying to understand is the errata card expert handling. Why 'free barrel roll "?

See: the card expert handling is a complete action, ok. There is no need for the word free. Simply the ship equipped with it would be an upgrade with the barrel roll. Every time I wanted to do a barrel roll, do expert handling. There would be no need for the word free card.

The word free, open space to defend an extra action (since not repeated). Eg. Wedge Antilles equipped with expert handle (free barrel roll). He in the same turn, would perform a focus action and a free barrel roll. And be penalized with a stress token.

If the card is a complete action (consumes its action) that allows a free barrel roll, no need of errata.

 

 

 

 

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Ah, in that case I'll give you some of the history of the card, in case you weren't around during the original debate.

The card as printed does not specify that it is granting a barrel roll as an action.  Because of that, you could (arguably) use both the Expert Handling action and the Barrel Roll action (because those were different actions and there was nothing about not repeating parts of actions, just actions themselves).  The original errata changed Expert Handling to give a barrel roll action.

However, this was problematic for rules template reasons.  The rules don't really have a good way to handle a non-free action inside of another action.  If the action granted isn't free, then it would count as using an action which would make Expert Handling only usable by Vader (and take both of his actions).  Thus, they very quickly re-errated the card to include the word "free."

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I haven't played Dutch much, so I had not really thought through the implications of his pilot ability.

 Is his ability a "free action" for the beneficiary of the bonus target lock? The card does not call it that, and since it is possible with the droid R5-K6 to acquire a target lock during the combat phase, rather than during the activation phase, it might be possible to give a target lock to a pilot with stress if it is not technically an action at that point, but rather an exercise of pilot ability.

Let's say that Dutch and his Gold Squad buddy both are within range 1 of each other. Dutch has a target lock already from a previous turn. Both pilots then K-turn but remain in range 1 of each other, thus acquiring stress, and are unable to perform an action. Then, Dutch attacks, spending his target lock. He rolls with R5-K6's ability and gets an evade. He can reacquire the target lock, and then give the Gold Squad pilot one as well, right?

This is an exercise of a droid ability and a pilot ability, neither of which are designated on the cards as actions, so if I read it right this should be acceptable despite the stress maneuvers correct?

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 Correct. Dutch's ability and R5-K6's ability are not actions. They are conditional effects that happen when specific conditions are met, but nowhere on the cards for Dutch or K6 are they defined to be actions.

Jim

 

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dbmeboy said:

Ah, in that case I'll give you some of the history of the card, in case you weren't around during the original debate.

The card as printed does not specify that it is granting a barrel roll as an action.  Because of that, you could (arguably) use both the Expert Handling action and the Barrel Roll action (because those were different actions and there was nothing about not repeating parts of actions, just actions themselves).  The original errata changed Expert Handling to give a barrel roll action.

However, this was problematic for rules template reasons.  The rules don't really have a good way to handle a non-free action inside of another action.  If the action granted isn't free, then it would count as using an action which would make Expert Handling only usable by Vader (and take both of his actions).  Thus, they very quickly re-errated the card to include the word "free."

 

But do the two work together then? Can Vader use expert handlng to break a target lock and not recieve a stress token due to evasive maneivers?

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 Vader does not receive a stress token from usig Expert Handling because he has barrel roll in his action bar (and Expert Handling only gives a stress token if you do not have barrel roll).

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dbmeboy said:

 

 Vader does not receive a stress token from using Expert Handling because he has barrel roll in his action bar (and Expert Handling only gives a stress token if you do not have barrel roll).

 

 

 

Cool…that is how we have been playing it.  I did wonder though because the 2 are not exactly the same in that one allows you to break target lock and the other does not.  So I was thinking the stress token may be a consequence of breaking the target lock.  Because if a normal barrel roll does not break target lock then the expert handling one must be a lot more stressful of a maneuver to perform to be able to break a target lock.  Otherwise a simple barrel roll would also break target lock and there would be no need for Vader to use that card.

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 Understandable confusion. If it helps, the target lock is broken because the pilot is so skilled that he can shake it during the maneuver while a pilot of lesser skill could still do a barrel roll but not manage to shake the lock (representing the use of the an elite pilot upgrade). The stress token comes from a ship that is not normally that nimble being put through a barrel roll by an exceptionally skilled pilot (hence the stress token for ships that don't have the barrel roll action). Of course, that has nothing to do with the rules. The card works that way because that's how it says it works. But it does make for a plausible explanation.

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