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Fresnel2

Benefits of a Ratling crew

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On a theme, how about the RT finds a Ratling world in the expanse and recruits 40% crew from it.

What possible consequences could follow?

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Since also their leadership, weapon skill, toughness, and speed (because size scawny causes a -1 to Movement Speed) is lower than the average human, that boarding / hit and run actions on you causes you to have a -5 Command Skill test if over half your crew is Ratlings.  Obviously if they are properly equipped and trained, and if you outfit your ships with Tenebro-Maze specially designed for their small size and aptitude for marksmanship, then this -5 might turn into a +5 (so with the Tenebro-Maze a total of +15).  But this is just a house rule, and is at the discretion of the GM.  gran_risa.gif  Best of luck to you and your Ratling Crew.

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Thanks. Nice thought about the Tenebro-maze. Although the Armsmen on board would be normal humans.

I thought about +50 to Criminal endeavours. Also I am imagining a fighter pilot squadron of Ratlings. One of them a called Maverick… as Tom Cruise is basically a Ratling…

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Always imagined Danny DeVito as a squat. 

If any of the WH40k games were to use Abhumans in an interesting way, it would be RT. Only War has Ogryns and Ratlings, but they are firmly boxed into they Codex roles. But if a RT can have an Ork on staff…

 

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Fresnel said:

Always imagined Danny DeVito as a squat. 

If any of the WH40k games were to use Abhumans in an interesting way, it would be RT. Only War has Ogryns and Ratlings, but they are firmly boxed into they Codex roles. But if a RT can have an Ork on staff…

Oh, yeah, the way Abhumans work in Only War is just.. gah, I'm not even sure how to put it without resorting to profanities.

No baseline human snipers.
No ratling medics.

It boggles the mind.

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Fgdsfg said:

Oh, yeah, the way Abhumans work in Only War is just.. gah, I'm not even sure how to put it without resorting to profanities.

No baseline human snipers.
No ratling medics.

It boggles the mind.

 

You mean I could never have an Ogryn mechanic?   corazon_roto.gif

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To return to the topic, before I veer this way, way off-topic, I'd say that Ratlings could make excellent boarding actions. After all, they're small, they're quick (for their stature) and stealthy. Imagine those bastards getting into the vents. While ratlings are generally cowardly and such, I wouldn't hold that against them in this case - the ones involved in boarding actions and the military (any military) would likely be the braver ones amongst the ratlings.

Perhaps a penalty against boarding actions taken against you? Since ratlings are very "home-y", and would have all kinds of ways to get around their own ship that those attacking them wouldn't have. I'm thinking "Tucker's Kobolds" level of ratling bastard-y-ness here. Think only of the open areas of the ship as the "halfling village" - everything else is their tunnels, their dungeons, their storage-rooms and the place where honest combat goes to die.

While it wasn't requested, one penalty might be that they certainly should eat more than the average human. Might give them a bonus to find cheap and better food while resupplying, though.

Definitely a yes on the bonus to various criminal ventures, while some kind of penalty while "in port" might be good. A ship full of abhumans can't be very popular, since many will certainly think of them as mutants, although not with the same massive disdain. And when non-violent crime suddenly takes a complete jump, it doesn't take a rocket-enginseer to figure out why.

Bonus while performing stealthy ship actions?

Nameless2all said:

Fgdsfg said:

 

Oh, yeah, the way Abhumans work in Only War is just.. gah, I'm not even sure how to put it without resorting to profanities.

No baseline human snipers.
No ratling medics.

It boggles the mind.

 

 

 

You mean I could never have an Ogryn mechanic?   corazon_roto.gif

All jokes aside, yeah, I can see how there are roles that should never ever be fulfilled by Ogryns or Ratlings, or certain abhumans. For example, Ogryn Commissars, or Ratling Heavy Weapons Specialists. But making abhumans Speciality sets a, if not dangerous, then at least stupid precedent. Let's say you add Squats. By the logic of the core rulebook (or the beta, at least), Squats will be a Speciality. What? An operator, riding bikes? Or some form of mechanic? You can't have it all the ways.

It would be far better to have a "subrace" option, or a "homeworld" option separate from regimental creation and then have certain prereqs. for certain Specialities - Stormtroopers or Commissars can't be abhuman, Snipers can't be Ogryn, Weapon Specialists can't be Ratlings, etc, etc, etc. An regular Ogryn certainly can't be a Sergeant, but those with a BONE-upgrade definitely could.

I just really dislike how it's handled.

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Ogryns are essentially imbeciles. This does naturally limit the roles they can fill - although how they survive death worlds being this stupid strains the suspension of disbelief… The warhammer fantasy game doesn't make them intellectuals, but they have cunning and can innovate. In short they are interesting in a way WH40k doesn't allow.

Ratlings are normally intelligent, but physically small. They can fill a wide varity of roles on a starship. Give them a weapon MUI and a seat at a turret and see the benefit of their natural Ballistic Skill, for instance.

 Fgdsfg: Good stuff. If I get a chance I might write up/compile house rules for discussion.

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 Is there any fluff reason why Ogryn/Ratling Psykers shouldn't exist? I presume their souls are just like baseline humans. 

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Fgdsfg said:

Fresnel said:

 

Always imagined Danny DeVito as a squat. 

If any of the WH40k games were to use Abhumans in an interesting way, it would be RT. Only War has Ogryns and Ratlings, but they are firmly boxed into they Codex roles. But if a RT can have an Ork on staff…

 

Oh, yeah, the way Abhumans work in Only War is just.. gah, I'm not even sure how to put it without resorting to profanities.

No baseline human snipers.
No ratling medics.

It boggles the mind.

 

 

Wah? You have to play a ratling to be a sniper? That seems kind of silly.

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Not really applicable I know, but the WHF game has Ogre magic users.

But no Halfling magic users. They just don't have any. However, they are very resistance to mutation/corruption. The fluff is that the Slann created them to be resistant to Chaos. The lack of ability to do magic is probably part of this. I would take this bit into WH40k and made them resistant if not immune to corruption.

 

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guest469 said:

Is there any fluff reason why Ogryn/Ratling Psykers shouldn't exist? I presume their souls are just like baseline humans.

There's not a specific fluff reason given, but in WH40k, psykers is often a matter of mutation and/or evolution. Given that abhumans are offshoots to baseline humanity, I guess the logic could be that they are simply too far removed to become psykers, since they're essentially on a different evolutionary ladder.

"Souls" in WH40k is a very measurable thing (and incredibly relevant). There is no reason to think that abhumans, especially Ogryns, would not be "lesser" than baseline humans in this regard. I would also think that Ogryns probably lack the mental focus and discipline to actually make effective use of psychic potential. Ratlings could just have some kind of innate resistance, similar to the halfling resistance to magic in Warhammer Fantasy.

Squats could just have had the psyker gene bred out, while I really think that other abhumans - beastmen in particular - totally should still be capable of being psykers. But what do I know?

lurkeroutthere said:

Wah? You have to play a ratling to be a sniper? That seems kind of silly.

Yes. There is no Sniper specialization, but the Ratling specialization (*sigh*) has everything you'd expect a Sniper specialization to have, with a spotter companion and things like that.

There's nothing preventing you from taking a Weapon Specialist or a Storm Trooper or something like that and giving them a sniper rifle, but only Ratlings get the bells and whistles you'd expect from a "Sniper" specialization.

Fresnel said:

[…] In short they are interesting in a way WH40k doesn't allow.

[…]

I disagree. WH40k totally allows the Ogryn to be interesting, just as interesting as in Warhammer Fantasy - but the powers that be simply don't make use of it. After all, in the Imperium, there are entire worlds populated, controlled and kept running by Ogryns. We only see an incredibly small part of abhuman characters, and virtually nothing about their societies or their actual nature.

And when given the chance of expanding upon these, what does FFG do? They stick them firmly in the exact same category as the one their already fulfil on the tabletop - Ratling snipers and Ogryn brutes. No more, no less.

Makes perfect sense in the tabletop.

Makes no sense at all in a roleplaying game.

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 We have fluff with BONE Ogryns having Forest Grump-like mental levels. We can only infer from the rest of the fluff that unaugmented Ogryns are almost ape-level intelligence… And actually an uneducated 19th century vision of how apes are. As I have said, this makes no sense, but this is all GW gives us. Also it appears like 75% of the fanbase gets ants-in-their-pants at the thought of stepping outside this. Thou shalt not contradict the Table-top Codexes in any way!

I 100% agree that in the context of a roleplaying game where nuance is allowed, this is a mistake. Our Rogue Traders should be able to discover Ogre Kingdoms-like worlds - they should exist. I will toast the health of the first author who gets such a concept published.

I have heard how the GW overseers are very conservative, but how much of this is actually GW vetoing material and how much is an author/FFG line-editor not wanting to waste time/effort/money developing concepts that 'might' be vetoed by GW? In addition, considering how much scorn is poured on Ratlings/Ogryns by sections of the fanbase, perhaps it would take an extremely 'courageous' line-editor to even consider it. Why spend time/effort/money on concepts that GW might veto and wouldn't be well received it they were published.

 

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Fresnel said:

 We have fluff with BONE Ogryns having Forest Grump-like mental levels. We can only infer from the rest of the fluff that unaugmented Ogryns are almost ape-level intelligence… And actually an uneducated 19th century vision of how apes are. As I have said, this makes no sense, but this is all GW gives us. Also it appears like 75% of the fanbase gets ants-in-their-pants at the thought of stepping outside this. Thou shalt not contradict the Table-top Codexes in any way!

I 100% agree that in the context of a roleplaying game where nuance is allowed, this is a mistake. Our Rogue Traders should be able to discover Ogre Kingdoms-like worlds - they should exist. I will toast the health of the first author who gets such a concept published.

I have heard how the GW overseers are very conservative, but how much of this is actually GW vetoing material and how much is an author/FFG line-editor not wanting to waste time/effort/money developing concepts that 'might' be vetoed by GW? In addition, considering how much scorn is poured on Ratlings/Ogryns by sections of the fanbase, perhaps it would take an extremely 'courageous' line-editor to even consider it. Why spend time/effort/money on concepts that GW might veto and wouldn't be well received it they were published.

 

I would have to say that the idea that all ogryn are incredibly stupid really strains my ability to accept their survival in the harsh worlds that breed them. Perhaps the stupidity actually stems from poisoning - the rations of the IG give off a toxic byproduct that builds up in the brain and retards ogryn mental capabilities. In the IG, this is considered acceptable as they only want the ogryn for one purpose - as expendable shock troopers. For ogryn eating the diet of their homeworlds - or expensive imitations that won't poison their brains - expect a level of intelligence roughly equivalent to BONE'eads (the implant basically just preserves/restores the ogryn's natural intellect). You could still have primitive societies of such ogryn.

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 IMO the hope for Ogryns is 6th edition. GW have made the fantasy and 40k games more similar. The new Chaos SM codex is great and expands the scope of units. They have made the 40k soul grinder model usable in WFB. I think I see a general move to cross-fertilise between 40k and WFB.

It is possible that they might see the sense in allowing WH40K players to field Ogre models - perhaps with a 40k conversion kit… These might be designated 'Feral Ogryn Allies'.

Imagine taking a Ogryn Ninja Maneater onto the field! They would have my money. If GW did this with the new IG codex, we would see the FFG version soon after.

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Fresnel said:

 IMO the hope for Ogryns is 6th edition. GW have made the fantasy and 40k games more similar. The new Chaos SM codex is great and expands the scope of units. They have made the 40k soul grinder model usable in WFB. I think I see a general move to cross-fertilise between 40k and WFB.

It is possible that they might see the sense in allowing WH40K players to field Ogre models - perhaps with a 40k conversion kit… These might be designated 'Feral Ogryn Allies'.

Imagine taking a Ogryn Ninja Maneater onto the field! They would have my money. If GW did this with the new IG codex, we would see the FFG version soon after.

A couple of years ago there was a white dwarf article about potential breeds of abhumans which could be used in an imperial guard regiment and one of the units listed were feral world ogryns which were supposed to be so backward in terms of their understanding and use of technology that they couldn't be trained to use ripper guns so technically your 'feral ogryn allies' already exist. 

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Yes, except that if you showed a ripper gun to WFB Ogre, he would want to dual wield them and have a bunch of spares. In fact, if you showed him lascannons, he would figure out a way to adapt the grip and trigger - he would want to dual wield them to. A creature so stupid it cannot be taught to pull a trigger and which end to point, is far from this.

 

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Fresnel said:

Ogryns are essentially imbeciles. This does naturally limit the roles they can fill - although how they survive death worlds being this stupid strains the suspension of disbelief… The warhammer fantasy game doesn't make them intellectuals, but they have cunning and can innovate. In short they are interesting in a way WH40k doesn't allow.

Ratlings are normally intelligent, but physically small. They can fill a wide varity of roles on a starship. Give them a weapon MUI and a seat at a turret and see the benefit of their natural Ballistic Skill, for instance.

 Fgdsfg: Good stuff. If I get a chance I might write up/compile house rules for discussion.

Arguably the IG only recruits the particularly stupid/easily indoctrinated Ogryns from their homeworlds.  Your average Ogryn on their home worlds might indeed be of Warhammer Fantasy Ogre intelligence.

 

 

 

 

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Ymmv but I don't find either the brain-poisoning or the moron-selection ideas very plausible and there is no fluff-support for either.

Currently WH40K has Ogryns in a comic-relief 'Dumb as Rocks' role. Obviously a GM can change that in his game - but some players will not like this.

As I said, I think the only hope is that GW see a marketing opportunity in opening up Ogre Kingdoms models to WH40K armies (with conversion kits too). This would require a canon shift - which GW would do if they saw money in it. As a player of the TT WH40K game, I can imagine expanding the IG range for Ogryns and even a Feral Ogyrn ally list as a concept that has potential. 

N.B. Ogre Kingdoms still has Ogres as comic of course - just in more than a 'one-note' way.

 

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For the OP, I didn't noticed it, but a Ratling crew could also give a bonus to the acquisition roll when you'Re at a space station; all the black market going and leaving, surely the word got around that good ol' Captain X's the leader of the runts who brought up all those nice illigal things (or others) all sneaky like into port.

As for Only War, Weapon sepcialist with the sniper rifle as the regimental basic weapon.  Use your comrade's skill, especially the "your attack counts as pining" one.  Everyone passed on that one.

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