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Teokrata

the Future of Warhammer Invasion LCG (important!)

65 posts in this topic

As a North American I mostly agree with Teo's concerns, and I really envy your communities, count yourselves lucky!

 

The cost to get into the game is certainly the biggest problem for the mature LCGs. Not many people are going to invest $500+ in a game they don't know if they like and they're not sure they can find more than their girlfriend to play against. It's even easier to try out Magic, because they have so many different ways to get into the game and a player base almost anywhere. This alone should raise alarm bells for FFG.

 

It seems to me that the purest way to provide access to, and market the LCGs would be to sell custom packs down to the individual cards through some sort of online selection and distribution process. Ie allow players to buy cards individually! Theoretically, to me, that would be awesome. Imagine how easy it would be to get into the game at a good price, and on a competitive level. What a great way to appeal to disgruntled former Magic players by saying “You want a card? Buy it at base cost! Any card you like!!” That to me would capture the LCG concept perfectly..

 

Unfortunately this is probably unrealistic since this customization process would be really hard to pull off as a distributor. So what type of middle ground can be found? In my opinion, cheap starter packs should be created, logically for each race. But additionally structured around certain themes or core mechanics of the more commonly used decks for each race. For example, a Verena custom pack, where by you can buy all the cards often associated with a Verena deck. This wouldn't have to be limited to a 50 card pack by any means. To keep the customization alive they could make these packs 100 cards or so, of all the cards that are somewhat complementary to the mechanic. In addition to a variety of “housekeeping” cards that the race uses. These types of decks could be created for numerous themes from each race, eg. Orc rush, Dwarf Reclaim, DE control, etc etc. It would be a great way to get into the game, even competitively so, but also maintain the element of deck customization that gives it a personal feel. Further it would maintain the superiority in options for the players who have bought all the cards, which is important too.

 

That's my 2 cents on how FFG could get more entry into the aging LCGs. But I'm sure there are still lots of other things they could do outside of new entry packs, such as better exposure/marketing, and more casual friendly playstyles built in, such as multiplayer..

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rzarectz said:

 

The cost to get into the game is certainly the biggest problem for the mature LCGs. Not many people are going to invest $500+ in a game they don't know if they like and they're not sure they can find more than their girlfriend to play against. It's even easier to try out Magic, because they have so many different ways to get into the game and a player base almost anywhere. This alone should raise alarm bells for FFG.

 

You don't need to drop $500. You drop $40 on a core set. Or use a friends.

 

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Toqtamish said:

rzarectz said:

 

The cost to get into the game is certainly the biggest problem for the mature LCGs. Not many people are going to invest $500+ in a game they don't know if they like and they're not sure they can find more than their girlfriend to play against. It's even easier to try out Magic, because they have so many different ways to get into the game and a player base almost anywhere. This alone should raise alarm bells for FFG.

 

You don't need to drop $500. You drop $40 on a core set. Or use a friends.

 

 

Im talking about players who want to be able to play competitively.. Of course there's a large group of players out there who only have the core set and play it with their friends every once in a while like they do Settlers of Catan or Monopoly. But I think its implicit that we're not talking about these "treat it like a board game" type players in this thread. Not to be harsh but these players dont really matter, because as competitive players we never see them.

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rzarectz said:

But I think its implicit that we're not talking about these "treat it like a board game" type players in this thread. Not to be harsh but these players dont really matter, because as competitive players we never see them.

Wow, so much wrong with that statement. You may not see them but they help keep the game afloat without people casually buying the game it would be canceled for lack of sales. So yes they do matter.

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I agree that starter decks or packs allowing to play almost after purchase are the most efficient way to invite new players to the game and keep card game LIVING

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Toqtamish said:

 

 

"Wow, so much wrong with that statement. You may not see them but they help keep the game afloat without people casually buying the game it would be canceled for lack of sales. So yes they do matter."

 

 

 

Do you really believe this? Let me give you an example to show you why this is totally untrue. Lets assume that 80% of players who have ever bought into WI have only bought the core set, and 20% have bought every WI product availible to date. I think this is a pretty generous assumption of the prevalence of core set casuals relative to competative players. In reality there are lots of players between these figures but If we average it out I think these are pretty realistic player ratio statistics. 
 
Now lets assume good prices of say $30 for the core set, $20 for each Deluxe expansion, and $8/$12 for each 40 and 60 card battlepacks respectively. There are 3 deluxe expansions, 6 40-card battlepacks and 24 60-card battlepacks (ignoring eternal war). Many competative players have also bought multiple core sets as well as the 40-card enemy cycle packs, and the Ulthuan deluxe.  Lets assume that half of all competitive players have bought 3 copies of each of these so we can multiply money spent on these by two by competitives..
 
So, each type of player spends:
 
Casuals: $30 
 
Competitives: 30x2 + 20x2 + (8x6)x2 + 20x2 + 12x24 = $524
 
 
Assume 100 WI players for simplicity:
 
 
80 casual players x $30 = $2400 total reveneu from casuals. (18.6%)
 
20 competitive players x $524 = $10480 total revenue from competitives. (81.4%)
 
 
So now tell me what type of player is more important to FFG?? 
 
These numbers don't even take into account that most of these casuals bought into the game when WI was released 3 years ago. The amount of new casuals entering this game is now just a trickle of what it was in 2009.  It's the competitives that keep this game afloat.  If no one was buying these battlepacks then they wouldn't release them. Therefore FFG has a vested interest in keeping us happy. And a great way to keep us happy is to allow easy entrance into the competative scene, strengthening these communities. In my opinion, as I wrote above, this would best be achieved by releasing mechanic based starter packs. There's probably a lot of other ways to get people in, but certainly not hoping for some poor saps to show up with their brand new copy of the core set..

 

 

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What I know is that you saying an entire segment of the player base does not matter is incredibly rude and ignorant. Any argument you make in support of that kind of a statement is just ridiculous.

Also casuals can buy more than just the core box set so your numbers are not accurate. Not just "competitive" players will buy all of the expansions.

But what do I know, apparently I DON'T MATTER according to you.

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As much as I'm enjoying the irony of the Invasion civil war starting on the "kumbaya" thread where people were originally saying what country they are from and how much they supported the idea of international support for the game, it really doesn't matter how we define players. If "Casual Player A" bought the core set in 2009 because it was shiny and new and they compulsively buy games, then good for them. They will probably not show up for a small local tournament for a variety of reasons. The comment "They don't matter because we never see them" was probably not to be interpreted as "if you don't own every Invasion card you are unimportant" which is disrespectful, probably more like "I am not taking them into consideration since the only reason I think the majority of people buy all the cards is to play competitively in groups", which might not be true.

I think Rzarectz means that it really sucks if a main reason Player A won't show is the distribution model and that they can't buy back up to a "competitive" level at a reasonable price. The idea of having a pack of, I dunno, 99 cards called "Forces of the Empire" or something, that gets you 3 copies all the really good Empire cards from across lots of cycles, for $40, is a really good idea. So is having a core set supplement pack that brings you up to 3 copies of each card if you buy it and the core set. So is having a dedicated core of organized play people at FFG who help local organizers and advertise like crazy for Warhammer Invasion. The ultimate direction depends on how many people would buy these non-existent packs or get into the game, which none of us know.

It's a catch 22, you can't build a community without having a way for new players to pick up cards, have a good time, and win some games; and you won't get the easy-access card distribution model without more demand coming from new players wanting to enter the game.

In our group all sorts of people are buying into Netrunner, which is new and shiny. Will they all be around 3 expansion cycles in? I don't know, but I know at that point it will be hard to get new people to play Netrunner. Maybe the LCG model is doomed to follow this cycle, with the exception of Game of Thrones (for whatever reason).

 

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Toqtamish said:

 

What I know is that you saying an entire segment of the player base does not matter is incredibly rude and ignorant. Any argument you make in support of that kind of a statement is just ridiculous.

Also casuals can buy more than just the core box set so your numbers are not accurate. Not just "competitive" players will buy all of the expansions.

But what do I know, apparently I DON'T MATTER according to you.

 

 

Oh stop with the drama.. If you get so emotionally involved in your debates maybe you shouldn't post in online game forums. If you were approaching this reasonably you'd have understood that I didn't say your segment of the player base doesn't matter. I said they don't matter to competitive players, because generally casual core set only players never come out and play against competitives.  With respect to FFG, how much you matter to them is directly proportional to how much money you've spent on their products. They are not your grandmother they are a business. I showed with a gernerous division of the player base that even if they only make up 20% of players who've ever bought the core set, competitives still account for over 80% of WI revenue.  Argue all you want about the the exact numbers it won't change this contrast. If youre buying a lot of expansions then you are not really a casual "treat it as a board game" player are you? I think it was obvious that what I meant by a "casual player" is someone who hasn't bought more than the core set..  

I'm glad you enjoy the game as a casual with only a small subset of the cards, that's good for the game. But were talking about getting people into WI the customizable card game, not the board game. How to get more players out to WI organized play doesnt involve core set only players so why even bring them up..  

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I agree with points raised in this thread.

And to add something myself:

I am pretty much a new player and I own just the core game. While I'd like to play comeptitively, W:I community here in Slovakia is pretty much non-existent. There are a few people who either own the game, but they live quite far away, or have sold it already. Also as it has been mentioned, the price is quite high - even more if you consider that the core game, AoU and maybe a few battlepacks that don't have all cards in 3 copies. I consider it as an insult from FFG, because if I want the missing cards, I have to invest quite a lot. If they have at least released the "missing" cards in some kind of extra pack. There is a difference between business trying to earn money and greed.

 

FFG employee #1: "How will we earn money from these LCG games?"

FFG employee #2: "Competitive players who want to have all cards in 3 copies will have to buy these games several times, lulz."

FFG employee #1: "Genius!"

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klaymen_sk said:

I agree with points raised in this thread.

And to add something myself:

I am pretty much a new player and I own just the core game. While I'd like to play comeptitively, W:I community here in Slovakia is pretty much non-existent. There are a few people who either own the game, but they live quite far away, or have sold it already. Also as it has been mentioned, the price is quite high - even more if you consider that the core game, AoU and maybe a few battlepacks that don't have all cards in 3 copies. I consider it as an insult from FFG, because if I want the missing cards, I have to invest quite a lot. If they have at least released the "missing" cards in some kind of extra pack. There is a difference between business trying to earn money and greed.

 

FFG employee #1: "How will we earn money from these LCG games?"

FFG employee #2: "Competitive players who want to have all cards in 3 copies will have to buy these games several times, lulz."

FFG employee #1: "Genius!"

So it is an insult to "make" you buy more than one core set but games like MTG that "make" you buy multiple booster packs is okay ? lulz as you say.

Any LCG is significantly cheaper than any TCG and if people don't like how the core sets are packaged then don't but the constantly whining about it is pointless. No one forces you to buy anything. It has nothing to do with greed.

To have 3 of every card in every core set would increase the price beyond what your typical gamer is willing to initially invest in a new game. The core sets are packaged to allow a complete out of the box game experience.

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Toqtamish said:

So it is an insult to "make" you buy more than one core set but games like MTG that "make" you buy multiple booster packs is okay ? lulz as you say.

I've said nothing about MtG, because we are not talking about it here. Or on this forum, unlike on the rest of the internet, if you don't explicitly say something, then you imply the opposite? If no, then please stop putting words in my mouth. Thank you for your understanding. :)

 

 

Toqtamish said:

Any LCG is significantly cheaper than any TCG and if people don't like how the core sets are packaged then don't but the constantly whining about it is pointless. No one forces you to buy anything. It has nothing to do with greed.

I know that I am not forced. Though if I want to use three cards that are in one or two copies in the box, I have either to forget about it or shell out even more money. Or FFG could do something about it……

 

Toqtamish said:

To have 3 of every card in every core set would increase the price beyond what your typical gamer is willing to initially invest in a new game. The core sets are packaged to allow a complete out of the box game experience.

 

I'll quote what I have said earlier:

klaymen_sk said:

If they have at least released the "missing" cards in some kind of extra pack.

 

That would be impossible, right? Or to have less cards in the core set, but have 3 copies of each card. The remaining cards can be released in the following battlepack lest the core set's price was too high.

Wow, I have solved the issue in a moment. I think I am a genius. FFG, would you like to employ me?

/sarcasm

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klaymen_sk said:

That would be impossible, right? Or to have less cards in the core set, but have 3 copies of each card. The remaining cards can be released in the following battlepack lest the core set's price was too high.

Wow, I have solved the issue in a moment. I think I am a genius. FFG, would you like to employ me?

/sarcasm

 

That is an awful idea. Why would we want less card variety for a complete set instead ? Honestly you completist I just don't understand. Much better to have a more fulfilling out of the box game than 3 of each card. It is really not a big deal to buy extra core sets.

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