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Cardinal Nicodemus

Chapters with Unknown Geneseed

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Fgdsfg said:

Zappiel said:

 

so, FG:  what're you saying?  Please, be clear; because it sounds like yer saying that it's absolutely impossible for successors to diverge from their parent chapters, ever.  Is that what yer saying?  Law of Averages dictates that successor chapters cannot diverge from progenitors?  I'm curious to see your supporting material…..

 

The only thing I said was that the example was terrible. Of course successor chapters can diverge, but there has to be good reason.

 

Whatever dude! :-P

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crisaron said:

Lightbringer said:

 

 The problem with that concept is that traitor geneseed is stored on Terra, and as such is not available to mere chapter apothecaries. Any new chapters using traitor geneseed are therefore going to have to have the backing of the High Lords of Terra.

 

 

In a combat zone, there maybe plenty of available traitor geneseeds… no one said that apothicarie was not going completely crazy from the lost inflicted on is chapter… that creates a nice black and white story… then they have to hunt down the apothicarie himself but as they corner him chaos try to recruit him with false promises, etc.

An Inquisitor having asses to something different also as an idea of creating some sort of hybrid (Thunder Warriors) and also tries to recruit the apothicarie… then a kill team is chapter comes by to finish him but not before he dies to save the kill team, only to inform them he failed, the leader of the 1st company, the aspiring chapters master as a traitor geneseed, he is a descendent of (choose yours favored).

Now what do you do? Kill the chapter? Let them live but monitor them? Help the inquisitor creating Thunder Warriors or destroy the recipe?

If you start harvesting the geneseed from active traitor legionnaires, you're going to have a bad time.

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…but there will be some interesting tales…what would the Ultramarines do after Behemoth if they suddenly found a heap of 'questionable' geneseed?  If the only thing between the Hivefleet and the Imperium were the Ultramarines and the 'questionable' geneseed?  would they burn it all and risk the Imperium's destruction over an issue of pride and purity?  or would they 'bite the bullet', 'take one for the team' and use the geneseed to stop the tyranids?  i dunno, but it makes for good conflict….

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I like the potential for conflict but chapters take a long time to raise. Unless you're talking about the Ultramarines using questionable geneseed for their own chapter. I don't see that as very likely, considering their pride in their lineage. Another chapter perhaps.

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My first concern in this kind of chapter is the cost of a SM chapter, fleet, genetech lab and work, ad Mech furniture, support, …

A SM chapter is in fact a marvel of technology and a long time to pass before you could get a fighting force.

Who in an Imperium who desesperaly fight for survival can permit the loss of such asset, who can ( not can order) mobilise so much workforce, materials and knowledge in the actual aim to let it self destruct…

I can't imagine the Imperium let something like it happened, it is as a big machinery too much in need of everything to invest so much for a lost cause.

It is true that chapters disapear from Imprerial history destroy by their enn emy or their hubris but each time it is a tragedy.

Yes, the concept is good but not really in the mood of the universe as I see it. But it is only I and you are free to do as you want to.

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Thebigjul said:

My first concern in this kind of chapter is the cost of a SM chapter, fleet, genetech lab and work, ad Mech furniture, support, …

A SM chapter is in fact a marvel of technology and a long time to pass before you could get a fighting force.

Who in an Imperium who desesperaly fight for survival can permit the loss of such asset, who can ( not can order) mobilise so much workforce, materials and knowledge in the actual aim to let it self destruct…

I can't imagine the Imperium let something like it happened, it is as a big machinery too much in need of everything to invest so much for a lost cause.

It is true that chapters disapear from Imprerial history destroy by their enn emy or their hubris but each time it is a tragedy.

Yes, the concept is good but not really in the mood of the universe as I see it. But it is only I and you are free to do as you want to.

If you're referring to my "Berserker Chapter" concept, then yes, these are all completely valid points. To a degree I've attempted to address the "cost" issue (the vast expenses incurred in setting up a chapter) by suggesting that the Imperium creates Berserker Chapters "on the cheap" by using secondhand armour, old, disposable ships etc. I've also partially addressed your points by suggesting that this could be an ancient type of chapter no longer used by the Imperium, a relic of a more peaceful time, when the Imperium had disposable assets.

But in essence, I actually agree with you. I think the Imperium is very unlikely to ever knowingly use traitor geneseed. All I'm suggesting that if this is a route you as a player or GM want to go down, here's a non-canon (but vaguely plausible) option for doing so! :-)

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One angle I haven't seen explored is a Loyalist successor of the Word Bearers…

I am imagining all sorts true faith powers that make the Adeptus Sororitas look like Unitarians. 

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 Of all the traitor legions, the Word Bearers are probably last on the list of Legions that the Imperium would resurrect. Arguably the first to fall to chaos, and never particularly effective (in purely military terms) in comparison to other Legions, I just can't see a reason why the Imperium would bother.

Apologies for sounding so negative, I'm not trying to pour scorn on the idea…I'm just doubtful that the Imperium would need to use any of the stored traitor geneseed, really. Even if you run with the concept of Berserker Chapters, I can't see the Word Besrers "bringing anything to the table" that couldn't be handled more effectively by either Loyalist or other Traitor Legion geneseed. 

Their particular strengths were religious fanaticism, the ability to (slowly) convert people to their cause and their numbers-they were one of the larger Legions. None of these strengths really suit a modern Imperial chapter. Religious fanaticism is now a given, Chapters that proselytise their own chapter cult would get into trouble with the Ministorum, and chapters that proselytise the Imperial cult would be deemed by the Administratum to be tools of the Ecclesiarchy. And chapters are (theoretically) restricted in size, defeating the principle asset of the original Legion.

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I agree that it is implausible.

Iirc a possible reason that Blood Ravens/1k Sons exist was the 15th's fleet were ordered to disperse before the SWs invaded the Prospero system. All the 15th stationed on those vessels would be saved and still loyal. Only a faction of the Legion, but perhaps near 1000. If they fought the traitors heroically during the HH, they might have been pardoned and given a new identity by the new lords of Terra, who needed every loyal SM they could find.

It is implausible that any Traitor geneseed would be used for new founding. However, as a 'what if' the Word Bearers is an interesting one.  Lorgar turned to Chaos because the Emperor spurned his worship. Lorgar needed to find a higher power to worship, and they introduced themselves… A modern Word Bearer chapter wouldn't have this issue and all the potential in their geneseed would be unlocked. I.e. True Faith powers.

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Lightbringer said:

 Of all the traitor legions, the Word Bearers are probably last on the list of Legions that the Imperium would resurrect. Arguably the first to fall to chaos, and never particularly effective (in purely military terms) in comparison to other Legions, I just can't see a reason why the Imperium would bother.

Apologies for sounding so negative, I'm not trying to pour scorn on the idea…I'm just doubtful that the Imperium would need to use any of the stored traitor geneseed, really. Even if you run with the concept of Berserker Chapters, I can't see the Word Besrers "bringing anything to the table" that couldn't be handled more effectively by either Loyalist or other Traitor Legion geneseed. 

Their particular strengths were religious fanaticism, the ability to (slowly) convert people to their cause and their numbers-they were one of the larger Legions. None of these strengths really suit a modern Imperial chapter. Religious fanaticism is now a given, Chapters that proselytise their own chapter cult would get into trouble with the Ministorum, and chapters that proselytise the Imperial cult would be deemed by the Administratum to be tools of the Ecclesiarchy. And chapters are (theoretically) restricted in size, defeating the principle asset of the original Legion.

****, that don't sound very well because I have two Chapter ideas who are pretty close with the Ministorium.

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 I'm probably exaggerating the extent of the potential issue. There are (informal, historical, messy and slightly incoherent) checks and balances built into the Imperium's political systems. There is a secular power block (the Administratum) and a religious power block. (The Ministorum.) My point is that any marine chapter that gets too cosy with any one of those power blocks will piss off the other. A bit like the USMC getting a bit too close to the Mormons. Marine Chapters are expected to stand aloof from these things…( not that all of them do.)

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Lightbringer said:

 I'm probably exaggerating the extent of the potential issue. There are (informal, historical, messy and slightly incoherent) checks and balances built into the Imperium's political systems. There is a secular power block (the Administratum) and a religious power block. (The Ministorum.) My point is that any marine chapter that gets too cosy with any one of those power blocks will piss off the other. A bit like the USMC getting a bit too close to the Mormons. Marine Chapters are expected to stand aloof from these things…( not that all of them do.)

 

Yes, that sounds more in line with what I was imagining. One of them are Emperor puritans who have renounced their own progietor and exists only as the "sons of the Emperor" while the other is more mystical in nature with a alot of cooperation with the Ecclesiarchy since the Ministorium helped them out at a time when the Chapter was pretty deep in dirt.

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Having said that there are plenty of documentaries canon chapters with string ties to the ad-mech, whose faith would be considered nothing short of heretical if it weren't for the Terran/Martian treaty that allows them to continue their worship of the omnissiah

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This is a great thread that deserves a bump (because of another thread about a pre-heresy space marine on ice).

 

But one thing I have not seen hear is the fact that during the emperors time the geneseed was originally created by him/from him on terra no room for failure, or “inherently evil and traitors geneseed”.

(I think that’s hysterical that geneseed is inherently traitorous and “evil”. I could see that attitude after the imperium becomes more religious). 

 

The geneseed didn’t rebel the primarchs did and then they used there charisma and power of leadership to manipulate there SM to also rebel.  And of course the ones that didn’t rebel because they were so bad a$$ they didnt need no stinking primarchs, thats they had to be killed off (well they tried).

 

Also I think that the ad-mech doesn’t really see it that way, I’m sure they look at the geneseed for its quality and purity in the reference to be free from mutation and deviation in a biological way.  I also think the ad-mech wouldn’t think twice about making chapters with geneseeds from traitorous primarchs, and they’re the ones who control it and experiment with it. 

In the current fluff they already have supposedly loyal SM from traitor legions and I’m sure well see more of them in more of the stories.

 

I think yes there are new chapters are made with geneseed from a bottle called “other” and its filled with awesomeness.

 

I get this funny image of a Highlord of terra looking at this microscope in an ad-mech laboratory, and the magos is telling him about the awesome qualities of the geenseed and its perfection. Then the Highlord says “Hey these tiny little zit looking things look like tiny little faces, and by the emperor they look like Fulgrim.  He then screws up his face like he’s looking really hard “ hey are they flipping me the bird!!, and I’m not talking about the sign of the Aquila, what the eye!!!” then the magos says” yeah, yeah.. dude you’ve been smoking way to much obscura, now get the hell outta here I have Astartes to make”…

 

Also the ad-mechs don’t divulge their secrets, plus they do whatever they hell they want.

 

By the way LightBringer I love the Beserk chapter idea, its totally cannon in my game.

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This is a great thread that deserves a bump (because of another thread about a pre-heresy space marine on ice).

 

But one thing I have not seen hear is the fact that during the emperors time the geneseed was originally created by him/from him on terra no room for failure, or “inherently evil and traitors geneseed”.

(I think that’s hysterical that geneseed is inherently traitorous and “evil”. I could see that attitude after the imperium becomes more religious). 

 

The geneseed didn’t rebel the primarchs did and then they used there charisma and power of leadership to manipulate there SM to also rebel.  And of course the ones that didn’t rebel because they were so bad a$$ they didnt need no stinking primarchs, thats they had to be killed off (well they tried).

 

Also I think that the ad-mech doesn’t really see it that way, I’m sure they look at the geneseed for its quality and purity in the reference to be free from mutation and deviation in a biological way.  I also think the ad-mech wouldn’t think twice about making chapters with geneseeds from traitorous primarchs, and they’re the ones who control it and experiment with it. 

In the current fluff they already have supposedly loyal SM from traitor legions and I’m sure well see more of them in more of the stories.

 

I think yes there are new chapters are made with geneseed from a bottle called “other” and its filled with awesomeness.

 

I get this funny image of a Highlord of terra looking at this microscope in an ad-mech laboratory, and the magos is telling him about the awesome qualities of the geenseed and its perfection. Then the Highlord says “Hey these tiny little zit looking things look like tiny little faces, and by the emperor they look like Fulgrim.  He then screws up his face like he’s looking really hard “ hey are they flipping me the bird!!, and I’m not talking about the sign of the Aquila, what the eye!!!” then the magos says” yeah, yeah.. dude you’ve been smoking way to much obscura, now get the hell outta here I have Astartes to make”…

 

Also the ad-mechs don’t divulge their secrets, plus they do whatever they hell they want.

 

By the way LightBringer I love the Beserk chapter idea, its totally cannon in my game.

 

 

1. While its true that the Primarch were not created to fail the Emperor didn't make a perfect work and is no perfect man/god. For the fact is that his creations failed him to large degree, that's a fact. The reason that gene-seed is evil or corrupt by its heirtage is that what the gene-seed does is basically to create watered-down copies of the Primarch. They inherit various traits from him and that's the danger. They are effectively inheriting traits from a man who fell to Chaos. Rather basically this is that the Space Marines will inherit the same traits that were part of a man to fall, and thus making them more likely to follow in his footsteps in this regard, than inheriting traits from a man who stood firm against the Ruinous Powers. 

 

2. Yes, the Primarchs did rebel but as I've said above the gene-seed carries with it the traits of the Primarch, thus giving new Space Marines parts of the combination of traits that made the Primarch fall in the first place.

 

3. In regards to the AdMech one shouldn't overestimate on how divergent they are from the rest of the Imperium. They have accepted alot of things steaming from the Ecclesiarchy or non-Adeptus sources, such as hatred for the Xenos and their tech, the sacred human form etc. That they would be cool with using gene-seed from known traitors and heretics is as unlikely as they suddenly decides that the Xenos are actually the good guys and side with them against the Imperium. The AdMech is just as much ruled by superstition and dogma as the rest of the Imperium. They are not called tech-priests for nothing.

 

4. The situation that you describe between a HIGH LORD OF TERRA and some random magos-nobody, is hilarious for sure but as unlikely as Khorne becoming a pacifist. More likely the High Lord would complain and the magos' superiors would happily sacrifice him and his work to ensure that their relations with the rest of the Imperium remains good.

 

5. While the AdMech don't divulge their secrets they are still part of the Imperium and don't at all do just "what they want". They've got their own codes, laws and traditions and in most regards these work in harmony with the ditto of the Ecclesiarchy. If you're talking about the Dark Mechanicus or some cult of Hereteks then I could totally see this happen, but not within the orthodox and official Adpetus Mechanicus.

 

6. And indeed, the idea of Berserk Chapters is pretty cool. 

Edited by Gurkhal

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