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Little and Less Event

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This is a future argument settler.

Little and Less

You may play this card during any response window.

Response: Until the end of the phase, players cannot play any additional responses. (Cannot be canceled.)

 

Just to clarify, this means that you cannot play events that trigger as a Response, right? 
If so, I really wish it said that more specifically because you don't play Responses, you trigger them.  You play Events, Characters, Locations, Attachments, etc. Better text would be "…players cannot play any Events that trigger as a response." if it only affects Events.

Not that I can think of any other card type that could be played as a Response, but I just want to be sure they didn't mix up terminology designing this event and don't want to add it to my deck assuming it works differently than I think.

~Haven't they learned to be as specific as possible?  happy.gif

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Bomb said:

This is a future argument settler.

Little and Less

You may play this card during any response window.

Response: Until the end of the phase, players cannot play any additional responses. (Cannot be canceled.)

 

Just to clarify, this means that you cannot play events that trigger as a Response, right? 
If so, I really wish it said that more specifically because you don't play Responses, you trigger them.  You play Events, Characters, Locations, Attachments, etc. Better text would be "…players cannot play any Events that trigger as a response." if it only affects Events.

Not that I can think of any other card type that could be played as a Response, but I just want to be sure they didn't mix up terminology designing this event and don't want to add it to my deck assuming it works differently than I think.

~Haven't they learned to be as specific as possible?  happy.gif

I agree, the wording is sloppy. If they meant that players can't play Events with a Response, they should've said so. If they meant that you can't trigger any responses for the remainder of the phase anymore, they should've said that. The way it's worded, there's no telling how it works without asking FFG. Unless there is some precedent for the "play responses" lingo us puny mortals ain't aware of, in which case we'd have to wait for ktom to make an appearance.

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It's sloppy templating on FFG's part.

The precedents would be "cannot trigger additional responses" or "no responses can be used" if it was intended to stop all Response effect.

The precedents would be "cannot play events" if it was intended to only stop events.

 

Since the template precedents that stop events only always includes the word "events," I am inclined to think that the word "play" was substituted for the word "trigger", rather than to think that the word "events" was left off the card entirely. I would treat it as not being able to trigger responses (as opposed to not being able to play events with responses) until the official errata cleans up the language.

 

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Thank you ktom. 

I just sent the following question to FFG via the Rules Questions page:

There is a new event named Little and Less with the below text:

"You may play this card during any response window.

Response: Until the end of the phase, players cannot play any additional responses. (Cannot be canceled.)"

Since you don't "play" responses, what kind of responses does this event prevent from being triggered? Is it meant to keep players from playing Events that trigger as a Response? Or is it meant to keep players from triggering any kind of Response for the remainder of the phase? Or is it something else entirely?

Thank you very much and I look forward to hearing from you!

 

I will post their response if and when I hear back from them.

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Already got an answer from Damon Stone:

"It prevents that playing (triggering, activating, using) any and all responses."

 

This event is going to be meta-changing I think.  It's a global Brienne of Tarth for Responses. 

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 biggest winner is martell HH. they can recurse this event forever with Princes Plans and prevent all responses for the entire game. Nutso! I LOVE IT! To those prepping whiney posts…….you asked for a meta shake-up, now you got it. I applaud this event. GG Damon.

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dcdennis said:

 biggest winner is martell HH. they can recurse this event forever with Princes Plans and prevent all responses for the entire game. Nutso! I LOVE IT! To those prepping whiney posts…….you asked for a meta shake-up, now you got it. I applaud this event. GG Damon.
Actually, Martell may be the biggest loser. They use a TON of Responses themselves, and the card stops all of them, not just opponents'.

Of course, it royally screws Maesters (the Agenda, and most links, are Resposnes…) and Siege decks. So it's kinda silver-bulletish, but still has plenty of uses if your opponents are playing something other than Maesters or Stark-murder.

One of the really fun things is that it is going to make people FAR more aware of the timing windows and when Responses can be played. For example, it's best use might be to go first in Challenges, finish all of your challenges (including Responses to them), then play the event as a Response in the framework action window where "active player" status changes to your opponent. (Oh yeah, that's an action window, which has a Response step!).

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 which brings up a question ive been meaning to ask. can you respond to an action that doesnt happen? meaning if both players pass actions in that window, can you still respond with this event?

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I wonder if this event will just eliminate the ability to use Responses during the challenge phase in Melee if everyone is running 2x - 3x of it.

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dcdennis said:

 which brings up a question ive been meaning to ask. can you respond to an action that doesnt happen?
No.

dcdennis said:

meaning if both players pass actions in that window, can you still respond with this event?
No. Remember that the "Player Action Windows" that appear on the flowcharts are not action windows. They are placeholders to tell you where players can take actions if they choose to. It is the actual initiation of an effect that opens an action window. If no one initiates anything, there is no active window, so there is no place to Respond.

So, for example, if you don't use this Response in the "start phase" framework window that begins the challenge phase, and all players pass on triggering an action in the first "pre-challenge" player action window, you won't get a chance to play this event until the Response step of the "initiate challenge" framework action that begins the first challenge.

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If you want to make sure no responses at all get triggered during any given phase, all you need to do is play this during the "beginning of the phase" framework action window and you're set.

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Sulpures said:

 I still have a question: can little and less be played during the save/cancel response window? 

 

all response window

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Sulpures said:

 I still have a question: can little and less be played during the save/cancel response window? 

Sulpures said:

 I still have a question: can little and less be played during the save/cancel response window? 

 

Any response window.

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ktom said:

dcdennis said:

 which brings up a question ive been meaning to ask. can you respond to an action that doesnt happen?

No.

 

dcdennis said:

meaning if both players pass actions in that window, can you still respond with this event?

No. Remember that the "Player Action Windows" that appear on the flowcharts are not action windows. They are placeholders to tell you where players can take actions if they choose to. It is the actual initiation of an effect that opens an action window. If no one initiates anything, there is no active window, so there is no place to Respond.

 

So, for example, if you don't use this Response in the "start phase" framework window that begins the challenge phase, and all players pass on triggering an action in the first "pre-challenge" player action window, you won't get a chance to play this event until the Response step of the "initiate challenge" framework action that begins the first challenge.

Just to confirm, though, I CAN say "I'm responding to the starting of x phase by playing this" even if there are no other responses to the phase beginning?  And also confirm that this would happen before Shadows?

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"Response window" is bad templating. There is no such thing as a response "window." There are only response STEPS in other windows (player and framework.)

You CANNOT play it during a save/cancel step. Since it does not use the word "save" or "cancel" so it cannot interrupt the initiation and resolution of another effect. Another reason response "step" would have been clearer: Step 5 is the response step/window. Step 2 is the save/cancel step/window. 

But yes, any time you get to a Step 5, no matter what type of action window it is, you can use the card. That includes the "begin phase" framework window. However, you get to Shadows before you get to "Step 5" of that window. You cannot play it before the first card comes out of Shadows. (Although, since each card that comes out of Shadows has its own response step, you can play it in Response to the first card coming out of Shadows).

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And if the Shadows card itself has a response (E.G. King's Landing Assassin), does it go to First Player to decide if the Shadows card gets to respond or the opponent gets to play L&L?

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ktom said:

dcdennis said:

 biggest winner is martell HH. they can recurse this event forever with Princes Plans and prevent all responses for the entire game. Nutso! I LOVE IT! To those prepping whiney posts…….you asked for a meta shake-up, now you got it. I applaud this event. GG Damon.

Actually, Martell may be the biggest loser. They use a TON of Responses themselves, and the card stops all of them, not just opponents'.

 

Of course, it royally screws Maesters (the Agenda, and most links, are Resposnes…) and Siege decks. So it's kinda silver-bulletish, but still has plenty of uses if your opponents are playing something other than Maesters or Stark-murder.

One of the really fun things is that it is going to make people FAR more aware of the timing windows and when Responses can be played. For example, it's best use might be to go first in Challenges, finish all of your challenges (including Responses to them), then play the event as a Response in the framework action window where "active player" status changes to your opponent. (Oh yeah, that's an action window, which has a Response step!).

 

Going to have to agree here, both Martell decks been working on greatly revolve around their powerful responses. However, do believe this came out due to the high use of Maester decks and nice that it is a big hit on them. Not sure though how best will be used though, I mean how many decks don't want to trigger some responses, although can plan it around your own still could hurt yourself just as much or more if planned poorly. 

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imrahil327 said:

And if the Shadows card itself has a response (E.G. King's Landing Assassin), does it go to First Player to decide if the Shadows card gets to respond or the opponent gets to play L&L?

The FAQ says that the first response after a player action (such as bringing a card out of shadows) goes to the person that is left of the one who initiated the player action.

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sWhiteboy said:

imrahil327 said:

 

And if the Shadows card itself has a response (E.G. King's Landing Assassin), does it go to First Player to decide if the Shadows card gets to respond or the opponent gets to play L&L?

 

 

The FAQ says that the first response after a player action (such as bringing a card out of shadows) goes to the person that is left of the one who initiated the player action.

More to the point, the FAQ also says, specifically, that this applies to Shadows, too, and the first response after a card comes out of Shadows goes to the player on the left of the player bringing the card out of Shadows:

 

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ktom said:

"Response window" is bad templating. There is no such thing as a response "window." There are only response STEPS in other windows (player and framework.)

You CANNOT play it during a save/cancel step. Since it does not use the word "save" or "cancel" so it cannot interrupt the initiation and resolution of another effect. Another reason response "step" would have been clearer: Step 5 is the response step/window. Step 2 is the save/cancel step/window. 

I understand what you are saying, but the card itself does state "any response window".  Pretend "window" is replaced by "step".  The type of step that is open should not matter considering what the card says.  Considering Save/Cancel responses are a response step, it would be included as part of "any response step", no?  This could be a case of card text overriding rules.

Honestly, it will almost not matter really anyway because the save opportunity for the opponent should occur before Little and Less can be played unless it's MIL claim or some other framework where FP responds first(like discussed above).

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I disagree with your interpretation.

Yes, the card say that you can play it during any response window, step, opportunity, whatever. However, the rules say that only Responses that use the words "save" or "cancel" can be used in the save/cancel response window, step, opportunity, whatever. There is no reason to think that the "Response" effect on the event that you trigger - which does not specifically use the words "save" or "cancel" - is exempt from that rule because they do not, actually, specifically conflict.

There are two different requirements for triggering a save/cancel Response - a valid response opportunity and the word "save" or "cancel." Both must be true in order to use the Response in Step 2. The "can be triggered during any window" only bypasses one of those requirements. It does not bypass the other.

It's like "this character can be declared as an attacker while knelt" bypassing the "only standing characters can be declared" requirement, but not the "with an appropriate icon" requirement.  

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