What if…. (The Darth Vader: Barrel Roll and Expert Handling Possibilities)

[drkjedi35 46]

This thread is not to discuss whether or not Barrel Roll and Expert Handling should or shouldn't be able to be done in the same turn by Vader.  We're not discussing whos right or wrong.  This is a "what if" thread.

What if FFG says that Vader can do both Expert Handling and Barrel Roll in the same turn?  What would/could it look like?

First lets see what two Barrel Rolls look like.

Its the equivalent of doing a regular Barrel Roll by using a 3 straight instead of a 1 straight.

 

Next lets look the distance he could really move in one turn.

 

 

And here are some other interesting possibilities.

I'm just thinking that if this goes through, it could really give Vader some serious options.  You almost have to give him EH so that he has the ability to move distances that no one else can move.  What do you think?  Too powerful?

Roy

 

 

[Duraham 750]

 when you are down to 1v1 it becomes impossible to catch him in your firing arc (2 barrel rolls to one side = definitely out of your firing arc, unless you a Y-wing), unless he is trapped in a corner or has stress markers. IF he has a stress marker after doing the expert handling, that's a slightly different story, but still very imbalanced.

[KarmikazeKidd 1]

 I could be wrong, but I don't think it would be particularly overpowered. For one, you've already invested in Vader and didn't take any of the other potentially more deadly upgrades. And if you're barrel rolling twice, you're not taking any focus, evade, or target lock actions (though you could have an existing TL). Could it cause some serious problems for an opponent? Certainly. But I just doubt the double BR is not the best use of Vader's ability.

[dandirk 232]

 Over Powered in my opinion.  The first match we played, someone figured out the double barrel roll with vader, we missed the double action rule and vader was abusing it all the time.  Double evades, double focus etc.

Once a player figured out double barrel rolls it was almost impossible to not only keep him in arc, but also prevent being in his arc at the same time.  This was HUGE, vader had open shots almost every turn or avoided most targeting.

I can't think of any pilot or card that gives the benefit of double barrel rolls.  Wedge's remove a def dice, or the Tie that prevents all rerolls/actions are close but still far short imo.

[drkjedi35 46]

dandirk said:

 Over Powered in my opinion.  The first match we played, someone figured out the double barrel roll with vader, we missed the double action rule and vader was abusing it all the time.  Double evades, double focus etc.

Once a player figured out double barrel rolls it was almost impossible to not only keep him in arc, but also prevent being in his arc at the same time.  This was HUGE, vader had open shots almost every turn or avoided most targeting.

I can't think of any pilot or card that gives the benefit of double barrel rolls.  Wedge's remove a def dice, or the Tie that prevents all rerolls/actions are close but still far short imo.

It's the Highly Controversial Expert Handling/Barrel roll combination that I was describing.

Roy

[ShadowJak 10]

 Yeah, It's over powered. Going straight 2 and then double rolling back is almost like going sideways. Regardless of the wording on the card, I doubt they'll allow it when the FAQ comes out. Game companies errata cards all the time so even if it is legal now, it might not be in the future.

Edit: I think the upgrade card should read something like "Perform a barrel roll if you haven't already this round." That would clear everything up.

[dbmeboy 807]

ShadowJak said:

 

 Yeah, It's over powered. Going straight 2 and then double rolling back is almost like going sideways. Regardless of the wording on the card, I doubt they'll allow it when the FAQ comes out. Game companies errata cards all the time so even if it is legal now, it might not be in the future.

Edit: I think the upgrade card should read something like "Perform a barrel roll if you haven't already this round." That would clear everything up.

 

 

Agreed. While I've argued that the rules and card as currently written should allow the Expert Handling + Barrel Roll combo, I would not be at all surprised if they added some clarifications/rewrote the Expert Handling card to prevent it eventually.

 

Edit: it would take a little more rewording than that, as that would still allow you to use Expert Handling before Barrel Roll. I think the easiest way to do it would be changing the card to a constant modifier that granted the barrel roll icon if you didn't already have it.

[dandirk 232]

drkjedi35 said:

dandirk said:

 

 Over Powered in my opinion.  The first match we played, someone figured out the double barrel roll with vader, we missed the double action rule and vader was abusing it all the time.  Double evades, double focus etc.

Once a player figured out double barrel rolls it was almost impossible to not only keep him in arc, but also prevent being in his arc at the same time.  This was HUGE, vader had open shots almost every turn or avoided most targeting.

I can't think of any pilot or card that gives the benefit of double barrel rolls.  Wedge's remove a def dice, or the Tie that prevents all rerolls/actions are close but still far short imo.

 

 

It's the Highly Controversial Expert Handling/Barrel roll combination that I was describing.

Roy

 

my opinion since only vader can do 2 native actions (unless others are pared with a Squad Leader?)… it is a moot point and down to a 2 pt cost to get around the no duplicate action rule.

[dandirk 232]

dbmeboy said:

ShadowJak said:

 

 Yeah, It's over powered. Going straight 2 and then double rolling back is almost like going sideways. Regardless of the wording on the card, I doubt they'll allow it when the FAQ comes out. Game companies errata cards all the time so even if it is legal now, it might not be in the future.

Edit: I think the upgrade card should read something like "Perform a barrel roll if you haven't already this round." That would clear everything up.

 

 

Agreed. While I've argued that the rules and card as currently written should allow the Expert Handling + Barrel Roll combo, I would not be at all surprised if they added some clarifications/rewrote the Expert Handling card to prevent it eventually.

 

Edit: it would take a little more rewording than that, as that would still allow you to use Expert Handling before Barrel Roll. I think the easiest way to do it would be changing the card to a constant modifier that granted the barrel roll icon if you didn't already have it.

 

What they really should have done was classify the action cards with the basic actions.  Problem solved.  Either that or its intended.

[drkjedi35 46]

dandirk said:

drkjedi35 said:

 

dandirk said:

 

 Over Powered in my opinion.  The first match we played, someone figured out the double barrel roll with vader, we missed the double action rule and vader was abusing it all the time.  Double evades, double focus etc.

Once a player figured out double barrel rolls it was almost impossible to not only keep him in arc, but also prevent being in his arc at the same time.  This was HUGE, vader had open shots almost every turn or avoided most targeting.

I can't think of any pilot or card that gives the benefit of double barrel rolls.  Wedge's remove a def dice, or the Tie that prevents all rerolls/actions are close but still far short imo.

 

 

It's the Highly Controversial Expert Handling/Barrel roll combination that I was describing.

Roy

 

 

 

my opinion since only vader can do 2 native actions (unless others are pared with a Squad Leader?)… it is a moot point and down to a 2 pt cost to get around the no duplicate action rule.

It definitely is only a Vader issue.  That's clear.  But its still an issue that needs to be addressed.  If it is ruled that it is legal, I will definitely do my share of "testing" it out.

LOL

Roy

[Duraham 750]

 

not necessarily, eg. put expert handling on mauler, and have howlrunner use squad leader on mauler

 

 

[drkjedi35 46]

Duraham said:

 

 not necessarily, eg. put expert handling on mauler, and have howlrunner use squad leader on mauler

 

That has to be set up, and you'll probably only be able to pull it off once.  Vader, on the other hand, can do it whenever he wants to.  That makes it an issue.

Roy

[kingbobb 159]

Seeing it laid out like this makes me hope that I'm wrong in how EH works.  That just seems to be too much moving around.

[Ciaphas2 0]

I know this is a 'what if" but this should fall under  " a ship cannot perform the same action more than once per game round even if it is a free action" rule……………………………

[KarmikazeKidd 1]

Ciaphas said:

I know this is a 'what if" but this should fall under  " a ship cannot perform the same action more than once per game round even if it is a free action" rule……………………………

Obviously you're not familiar with the debate over whether or not Expert Handling and Barrel Roll actually count as the same action.

[Ciaphas2 0]

Oh I am familiar, but as an action a barrel roll is a barrel roll is a barrel roll, how you actually say you performed it, the action is still a barrel roll so only one per phase.. at least in my house

[Major Mishap 33]

Ciaphas said:

Oh I am familiar, but as an action a barrel roll is a barrel roll is a barrel roll, how you actually say you performed it, the action is still a barrel roll so only one per phase.. at least in my house

Ditto, both are actions and both are barrel rolls and both are in the Action phase, even say's it on the card :/

[Ellyrik 0]

Did anyone ask FFG?

[KarmikazeKidd 1]

Ciaphas said:

Oh I am familiar, but as an action a barrel roll is a barrel roll is a barrel roll, how you actually say you performed it, the action is still a barrel roll so only one per phase.. at least in my house

That's nice. But this is a public forum for discussion on the standard of play. Everyone's opinion is just as valid as yours. As it happens, I tend to agree. But the fact is that it is not entirely clear. And this thread (as you even noted) is simply 'What are the ramifications if this were to be the correct answer?'. So what about your post was relevant or constructive to the conversation? If you want to jump in on the argument you seem to want to have, there's already a lengthy thread for it. By all means, jump right in. But not here. That would be unnecessary, redundant, and annoying.

Let's get back to the actual discussion at hand, shall we? Ready….go.

[ShadowJak 10]

Ciaphas said:

Oh I am familiar, but as an action a barrel roll is a barrel roll is a barrel roll, how you actually say you performed it, the action is still a barrel roll so only one per phase.. at least in my house

They're trying not to bring up that tired debate in this thread.

[ShadowJak 10]

Ellyrik said:

Did anyone ask FFG?

If anyone did, FFG probably just told that person they were compiling information for a FAQ. I didn't ask about this issue, but I did ask about another and that is what they told me.

[drkjedi35 46]

ShadowJak said:

Ellyrik said:

 

Did anyone ask FFG?

 

 

If anyone did, FFG probably just told that person they were compiling information for a FAQ. I didn't ask about this issue, but I did ask about another and that is what they told me.

I asked the question a while back, and go the stock answer.  Hopefully that FAQ will be out soon.

Roy