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DocIII

Acolytes and power level

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Dezmond said:

+++++40k isn't about winning, its about the cost of surviving+++++

Yeah right. Thats what sells all the space marines.

 

Wow are we even looking at the same game?  Lets take a look shall we at your vaunted Space Marines

Horus Heresy... yeah that well for the Space Marines.  Not only did they barely win, they lost the one man they were sworn to protect, the Emperor.  I'll give you props, they lost to other Space Marines, but they lost pretty badly.

Okay lets take on the Plague of Unbelief.  Hm, they didn't do so well there either, at least not to start.  It took the Space Wolves to recall every single Marine they had to even remotely give them a chance to win, not to mention this occuring during a time when Bucharis was facing a number of revolts on other planets and had to spread his forces thin.

Okay so lets take the Age of Apostacy... wait they didn't do so well their either.  It took the Adeptus Custodes to actually have to force Vandire turn traitor before they could win.  Yeah great showing there.  It took Vandires own forces, not the forces of the vaunted Adeptus Custodes (even stronger then most Space Marines) to swing the tide of battle.  Great job there.

Okay so lets go to something you love... computer games... namely Dawn of War.  Yep, and again while they won they didn't just walk in and take the whole thing out.  Space Marines dying left and right, psuedo-cease fires with the Eldar (simply because the Eldar didn't see the need to continue fighting), loosing a Librarian to Chaos.  Yeah that went well, they didn't have a cost for surviving, just one of their most vaunted Librarians, and who knows how many Seeds they did or didn't recover from all those battles, or how many of them were tainted by Chaos.

So lets see, Space Marines win during the Horus Heresy, but loose half their number to Chaos, another good amount to death, and they loose the one thing they needed to protect, the Emperor.   So I'd say there was a cost for survival, namely the near-death of the Emperor.  Oh I know, no perma-death so the Emperor really didn't die, he just resurrected... no wait that's not it... so I'd say there was a cost.

Plague of Unbelief - Lets see the Space Wolves almost lost Fenris, had to stop all their crusades to win, lost how many of their number of Bucharis, and only really one because Bucharis' forces were spread too thin.  Cost... how many Space Marines died?  no wait... no perma-death so there must not have been a cost... they all magically respawned at their spawn points.

Age of Apostacy - Well okay short of loss of Marines they didn't really have a huge cost... yet it wasn't the Marines that won the day, but Vandires own troops turning against him.  Not a great showing there, but cost probably was minimal.

Dawn of War - How many deaths?  And a rare Librarian turned to Chaos.  So cost of survival - corrupted Librarian (possibly other Space Marines) and a large body count.  Oh wait, it was a computer game so none of them really died, they just respawned, but the Librarian, well can't really say there wasn't a cost there.

And that's just a minimal example.  Now out of those deaths, how many Seeds were lost?  How many irreplacable battle barges did the Space Wolves loose?  And all for minimal wins.

So all and all I'd say your vaunted space marines weren't as super as you're making them out to be.  They may win... but the cost, there is a cost however you may or may not like to.

Hell even in the tabletop game, the Space Marines don't simply win without taking losses.  So I'm still not so sure where you're getting this Space Marines = super-win.

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I like how Dezmund posted images from Damnation Cusade, which was all about the sacrifces you give up to win, even as a space marine.

Your home and family. Your freedom. Your friends. Heck, even your identity and name.

 

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With homeworld modifiers, emperor's tarot/divination modifiers and background package modifiers, a starting character could have a characteristic over 40. With +20 for characterisitc advances and +20 skill modifier and +10 for the Talent Talented, you can essentially/eventually have a 90 or so in your primary area of function, and thats before the +60/-60 modifier limits.

Giving a skilled experienced expert a range of 30% to 150% for chances of success.

Thats pretty good.

Now a new Talent tree is needed for weapon training. You should have: Untrained (1/2 WS/BS), Trained (WS/BS), Weapon Specialist (+10) and Weapon Master (+20). The thing is, as you get better talents with weapons, they should be more focuses, so Untrained is All, Trained is Group (Las Pistol, Las Basic, Las Heavy), Specialist is one weapon type (Hellgun), Weapon Expert is specific weapon (Sue, my Hellpistol my pappy gave to me).

Personaly opinion only.

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Dezmond said:

+++++40k isn't about winning, its about the cost of surviving+++++

Yeah right. Thats what sells all the space marines.

Good point. Those space marines all look so happy and well-adjusted.

Marneus Calgar looks like he's going to break out into his rendition of "Good Ship Lollipop" any second now.

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Well, I think it is disingenuous to suggest that it isn't largely about looking badass.

40krp needs to remember this, or risk becoming as unrelated to 40k mainstream as wfrp is to warhammer fantasy.

--

+++++Giving a skilled experienced expert a range of 30% to 150% for chances of success.

 Thats pretty good.+++++

Thats two years of weekly play remember. And a lot of failed rolls along the way.

Who here has advanced a character that far?
 

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Dezmond said:

Well, I think it is disingenuous to suggest that it isn't largely about looking badass.

40krp needs to remember this, or risk becoming as unrelated to 40k mainstream as wfrp is to warhammer fantasy.

--

+++++Giving a skilled experienced expert a range of 30% to 150% for chances of success.

 Thats pretty good.+++++

Thats two years of weekly play remember. And a lot of failed rolls along the way.

Who here has advanced a character that far?
 

So you're going to convientantly ignore the fact that Space Marines aren't as bad ass as you want them to be to further your arguement, while mentioning leveling as a problem.

How many of your vaunted MMOs start you off at any level other then "kill 10 rats"... none.

But I see where you're going at... you want instant gratification while ignoring the fact that the whole reason you NEED 120% skill rolls, is because you're enemies are giving you -60% modifiers constantly, and actually should be much higher like -80% modifiers.  So again your logic is flawed.

Its pretty hard to look badass, when your opponents are just as powerful as you are and are negating all your skills.

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About the relative weakness of 1st rank characters I think the rules are realistic. An unaimed snapshot should have a pretty low chance of success for an inexperienced shooter. Note the term snapshot because that is what a straight BS only attack is, the shooter has not taken the time to take a sight picture and aim. You should only take snapshots at point blank range, maybe at short if you are desperate (the Hormagaunts are about to jump you). An inexperienced shooter should always take the time to aim or fire a burst to increase his chance of getting a hit. That is just good marksmanship principles.

(On second thoughts if the Hormagaunts are about to jump you it is time for autofire!)

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Peacekeeper_b said:

 

Wow Dez, your marines bore me.

If I remember correctly all Marines bore you.
 

Or is that someone else. Hellebore is the eldar fanboy, I'm the Marine fanboy and you are the Guard fan. Is that right? **** but people positions are hard to remember.

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@MD

As has been said, the combat rules are pretty much the only part of the rules that are uniformly seen as pretty well done with regard to the chances of success - hitting with a chance of about 50% (30% base +10 aiming +10 for short distance) is quite acceptable. It's the non-combat portions of the rule system many people have a problem with.

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MD182562 said:

About the relative weakness of 1st rank characters I think the rules are realistic. An unaimed snapshot should have a pretty low chance of success for an inexperienced shooter. Note the term snapshot because that is what a straight BS only attack is, the shooter has not taken the time to take a sight picture and aim. You should only take snapshots at point blank range, maybe at short if you are desperate (the Hormagaunts are about to jump you). An inexperienced shooter should always take the time to aim or fire a burst to increase his chance of getting a hit. That is just good marksmanship principles.

(On second thoughts if the Hormagaunts are about to jump you it is time for autofire!)

It isn't in combat that my real problem is (if you miss one turn you can just try again next turn) - it is with failing skill rolls all the time out of combat.

Hmmm. Maybe unify the mechanics by giving all out of combat tasks hit points and skill rolls.

So jumping the chasm becomes rolling to hit vs. the gap, then you do damage, then the gap tries to damage your gap jumping hit points, then  your go again. Do it right and taking on a gap of skill equal to your jump becomes 50/50, but you can have mook jumps that can be easily defeated.

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Dezmond said:

 

+++++40k isn't about winning, its about the cost of surviving+++++

Yeah right. Thats what sells all the space marines.

 

 

"Winning" doesnt sell Space Marines. SM-fanboys who actually think that Space Marines can put up a decent fight because they've read insane amount of fluff text is what sells Space Marines. But the grim reality always come crashing down on them when they see what nasty armies such as Tyranids, Dark Eldar, Eldar, Orks and Tau can do to tjheir precious marines. Not to mention NECRONS if played by a player who knows what he's doing. *insert evil laughter here*

(Note: this message is a bit tounge in cheek, keep that in mind! :P)

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Varnias Tybalt said:

SM-fanboys who actually think that Space Marines can put up a decent fight because they've read insane amount of fluff text is what sells Space Marines.

 

Well yeah. Its them* we are looking to sell our Marine rpg to. Or do you think they would be happier with a game where their precious marines get beaten up? Thats a game for Marine haters, which would surely be a bizarre thing to make (given the afore mentioned ravenous fanboys looking for their next fix of hardcore Marine action).

With an RPG we don't have to balance it against the other armies. We don't even have to worry about people only needing to buy one or two minis to play and the associated collapse of GW that would ensue. Marines unleashed. You know it will be huge. I'm seeing Marine duvets, Marine lunchboxes, Marine underwear, Marine socks (do GW already make those?).

Even, hope above hope, a small, boutique range of roleplaying truescale Marine miniatures...

Anyway, the point is that those/us fanboys like the fluff, which is more about power armoured supermen kicking ass than anything else, so 40k is to them/me about PASKA. Largely. Theres other stuff obviously - I rather like the Blanchian gothic spiky bitted artwork for instance, but thats secondary to the PASKA.

*as in Me.

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Dezmond said:

Anyway, the point is that those/us fanboys like the fluff, which is more about power armoured supermen kicking ass than anything else, so 40k is to them/me about PASKA. Largely. Theres other stuff obviously - I rather like the Blanchian gothic spiky bitted artwork for instance, but thats secondary to the PASKA.

Of course you do. However you might have to concede to the point that Dark Heresy is seldom about.. uhm.. "PASKA", but more about everything around them. And you also have to concede to the fact that even though they are Power Armoured Supermen Kicking Ass, they get their asses kicked VERY OFTEN and VERY HARD. Which just goes to show that the more fighting you seek out, the sooner you will lose/die. The bigger you are, the harder you fall etc etc. (insert a multitude of wise platitudes here).

But what the hell, thats just stuff a Space Marine fanboy should already be aware of. I mean, you wouldn't prefer your precious Space Marines winning all the time and then eventually die OF OLD AGE (yes I know thats impossible, but still), now would you? Dying while fighting your enemies is just glorious, so who cares wether they win or lose? At least they died fighting! :)

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Anonymus said:

Read Scourge the heretic. There is  dark heresy for you.

Scourge the heretic sucks big time. I hate cliffhanger endings, and the continuing novel "Innocence Proves Nothing" doesn't come out until like november. :(

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Scourge the heretic sucks big time. I hate cliffhanger endings, and the continuing novel "Innocence Proves Nothing" doesn't come out until like november. :(

Gotta disagree there - Scourge The Heretic has about the right amount of both closure (the heretic circle of Sepheris is found) to be satisfying and cliffhanger to make hungry for more. It's about what I'd expect from a mini-campaign arc of a real DH game.

 

Read Scourge the heretic. There is dark heresy for you.

StH has been a most interesting read, especially as it depicts both the competence I expect from "veteran" acolytes (Horst's cell) and "newbies" (Guardsman Drake and Scum Vos) - the first one being near-phenomenal (see Keira's prowess in a fight and Elyra's skills at infiltration... oh, and Carolus telekinetically flinging shuttles, though that is a scale we won't get to until the second expansion, I guess) and the second one being at least competent - while not being as good as the other acolytes, both newcomers pulled their weight on the team, sometimes having insights the other characters lacked.

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Cifer said:

Scourge the heretic sucks big time. I hate cliffhanger endings, and the continuing novel "Innocence Proves Nothing" doesn't come out until like november. :(

Gotta disagree there - Scourge The Heretic has about the right amount of both closure (the heretic circle of Sepheris is found) to be satisfying and cliffhanger to make hungry for more. It's about what I'd expect from a mini-campaign arc of a real DH game.

"Right amount of closure and enough cliffhanger to make hungry for more" entails (in my opinion) that the continued book gets released a short time after the first. Having to wait almost a year (if not more, if im counting properly) draws out the cliffhanger bit to an absurd proportion.

However the fact that I do want to read the continuing story probably speaks for itself that I found "Scourge the Heretic" to be an overall good novel. But then again you would have to expect that since im a ridiculous fanboy of Ciaphas Cain, and Sandy Mitchell having written both. :)

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Dezmond said:

Well, you do not bad ass marines and I'll do ten foot world-crushing Marines with 50' diaklaves and we shall see which sells the most neh?

Don't ge me wrong, I like space marines. I have several hundred of the damned models (and still building and converting more, **** I need to get around to painting more of them first) and generally like their background. 

Hell even appreciate a little, what was it?,  PASKA. (I loved the combat scenes in Angels of Darkness where five Dark Angels smashed apart attacks entire companies couldn't handle).

But 10 foot tall world crushers?  Gone from badass to too one-sided yawnfest.  7-8ft, crush a man's skull with one hand space marines are plenty.  And yes 40k has oversized weapons, pistols bigger than many rifles and models one-handing swords as tall as they are.  All well and good, makes cool models, etc. But their's a point where the cool-clunky tech feel reaches its limits and starts to turn absurd.

And your fifty foot diaklave (hell even the **** term daiklave) does not come from 40K.  These goofy things have no place in anything outside of bad cartoons.  The daiklaive and all of its similarly physics defying absurditity giaganto swords are one of the dumbest lookings/ lamest conventions I've ever seen in sci-fi or fanatasy.  The minute on of these stupid things turns up in anything that is not a farcical parody, I change the channel.

Nothing personal Dez, but just about every EXTREME TM! thing you espouse as defining space marines is like embarassing clown shoes strapped onto the Astartes you claim to love.

 

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"Right amount of closure and enough cliffhanger to make hungry for more" entails (in my opinion) that the continued book gets released a short time after the first. Having to wait almost a year (if not more, if im counting properly) draws out the cliffhanger bit to an absurd proportion.

Tell that to JK Rowling...

 

However the fact that I do want to read the continuing story probably speaks for itself that I found "Scourge the Heretic" to be an overall good novel. But then again you would have to expect that since im a ridiculous fanboy of Ciaphas Cain, and Sandy Mitchell having written both. :)

Same here. I very much like his view of the 40k-verse (apart from still wondering why all his tech-priests have white robes...).

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Cifer said:

Same here. I very much like his view of the 40k-verse (apart from still wondering why all his tech-priests have white robes...).

I think its because the tech-priests Sandy Mitchell describes are of low rank within the Ad Mech. The red robes with white cog-tooth pattern being reserved for higher ranking members. (which makes sense) But I might be remembering it wrong. : /

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DocIII said:

And your fifty foot diaklave (hell even the **** term daiklave) does not come from 40K.  These goofy things have no place in anything outside of bad cartoons.  The daiklaive and all of its similarly physics defying absurditity giaganto swords are one of the dumbest lookings/ lamest conventions I've ever seen in sci-fi or fanatasy.  The minute on of these stupid things turns up in anything that is not a farcical parody, I change the channel.

Nothing personal Dez, but just about every EXTREME TM! thing you espouse as defining space marines is like embarassing clown shoes strapped onto the Astartes you claim to love.

 

"This one goes to 11."

Agreed here as well. I like Space Marines. I'm putting together a Salamanders force for the wargame right now.

Space Marines are supposed to be powerful. In fact, I'll even grant that they're supposed to be a bit more powerful than their wargame stats suggest. But they're not anime characters, and the 40K universe is not an anime cartoon. A comic book, yes. But "buster swords" and saucer-eyes and wire-fu? Not so much, no.

When I think of a super character like Marneus Calgar, I think of an Ajax, an Achilles or a Hector. One of the few mighty standouts. When I think of the Space Marines, I think of the Myrmidons. Not invincible and not immune to casualties, but a lot better than other warriors.

The problem for the Imperium is the scale of its adversaries. In the world of mythical Greece, you can reliably come up with at least one Theseus capable of disposing of the minotaur. The minotaur and its ilk are true monsters, one-of-a-kind things. But in the 40K universe, there might be a whole race of minotaurs and they have machineguns and space ships. So you need more than just a hero, you need an army of heroes. Or else vast legions of disposable citizen soldiers. Fortunately for the Imperium, they have both.

But there's no evidence that any Space Marine can weild a 50-foot long power phallus, I mean sword, and split whole planets in half. 40K is already far enough over the top! If every Space Marine were basically an anime character, the future would go from grim and dark to merely absurd.

I'm anxious to see what they do with Deathwatch. But, and I can say this from long experience with role playing games, you do 3 basic things in these games: Talk, Explore and Fight. Talking is interacting with NPCs, magical talking fixtures in the dungeon, townsfolk, other travelers, whatever. It can teach you things about the game world and help you accomplish certain goals. Exploration means finding things that were hidden or unknown; it could be mapping a dungeon level, finding a hidden area or learning some secret about people, places or history. Fighting is, obviously, combat against opposing forces.

Any game that only does 1 of these 3 things is going to get boring. A lot of games that have come out lately either emphasize only Fighting, or only Talking. These games are pretty limited and get stale pretty fast. Just fighting all the time is boring. Getting railroaded from one fight to the next - who cares? I'll just go play Call of Duty. Likewise, only Talking to NPCs and never doing anything can get old pretty quick, too. Then it's basically a fantasy soap opera. Now, Exploring is the widest category and probably the most fun taken on its own (at least for me), but even that would get boring if there was never anyone to talk to or any threat of danger from adversaries. Really you need all 3 for a balanced game.

That's why I'm excited about Dark Heresy. It very readily makes use of all 3 modes of play. I think Rogue Trader will as well, though I'm a bit less interested in the theme. Deathwatch has an interesting theme, but the premise will probably be the most limited. By the time the Space Marines show up, the time for discussion is pretty much over. But we'll see what they do with it.

The promise of combining all three games is pretty interesting as well.

 

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+++++"This one goes to 11."+++++

Well it does.

:-)

Given how attracted all my chums were to the original klaives* in Werewolf, I feel a chainklaive would go down really, really well.

*Whats a klaive? Hell if I knew but they sure sounded cool.

--

+++++So you need more than just a hero, you need an army of heroes.+++++

But in an RPG we don't have an army. We have four or five guys. It has to be Big Ajax, Little Ajax, Achilles and Heck go on holiday.

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