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Sturmkraehe63

Can Garven Dreis use his ability even when there are no focus results to spend his token on?

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Example:
There are three ships on the table. Garven with a focus token, a Rookie X Wing pilot and the TIE pilot Howlrunner all within range 1 of each other.

 

In the combat phase:
Garven shoots at Howlrunner and rolls a hit and three misses. Garven did not roll a focus result.

Can Garven still pass his focus token onto the Rookie?

I believe that to pass the focus token on Garven needs to actually have cause to spend it on a die result. Is this correct? Or can Garven pass the token along regardless of what actually came up in the die roll?

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The card starts by saying, "After spending a focus token…"

On p. 11 there is a section titled "spending a focus token" it can be used to change all "eye" results to "hit" results.

If there are no "eye" results (all blank or even all hits or crits), then he can't spend the focus token.  So, I'd say if he doesn't / can't spend the focus token he can't transfer it.  But, keep in mind the point about offense and deffense raised above (i.e., there are multiple ways / times to spend focus tokens).

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dbmeboy said:

 I don't have the rules in front of me, but i can't think of any reason he couldn't spend his focus token to change all (0) of his focus results to hits.

I think that's an abuse of language, ("all zero"?), but I also don't see a huge problem in terms of game play if you chose to interpret it that way among your own friends. I think if the rules intended that usage, it would be more similar to the one on "Dutch" Vander: after acquiring a target lock, etc.

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dbmeboy said:

 No abuse of language at all. You spend the token and change all focus icons to hit icons. There's no munimum number to change stated, so you could change zero.

From the Rulebook pg 12 under Modifying Dice Results (which is what a Focus token does) - Change: Some effects change one die result to a different result. To resolve this, the player  physically picks up the die from the common area and rotates the die so that its faceup side displays the new result.

How can you accomplish this if there are NO FOCUS RESULTS TO CHANGE?

Roy

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drkjedi35 said:

dbmeboy said:

 

 No abuse of language at all. You spend the token and change all focus icons to hit icons. There's no munimum number to change stated, so you could change zero.

 

 

From the Rulebook pg 12 under Modifying Dice Results (which is what a Focus token does) - Change: Some effects change one die result to a different result. To resolve this, the player  physically picks up the die from the common area and rotates the die so that its faceup side displays the new result.

How can you accomplish this if there are NO FOCUS RESULTS TO CHANGE?

Roy

 

Agreed, Roy.

 

dbmeboy, I think that's stretching common sense use of language. Could you change negative one dice as well?

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 Roy, mag, I agree that you have a point with the clarification of physically altering the die. However, I also think dbmeboy has a point. And I don't think he's trying to abuse the language. Through various mini games there are certain words that are very important and the language is key. For example, an action is generally only optional if the word 'may' is in front of it. Another example, and more relevant to this discussion, is the language of 'X may move UP TO 3 spaces and attack' vs 'X may move 3 spaces and attack'. In most games the first example would allow you to move 0, 1, 2, or 3 spaces before attacking, where as the second would require you to move precisely 3. Personally, I think the wording of the focus token is very similar to this and the word 'all' is essentially equivalent to 'any number' of focus results. Therefore you could spend it pointlessly to pass it on. I think this is ok as it would still require an attack or defense action to go down for it to pass. So if no one was in his arc of fire, and no one attacked him, he could not pass it off. That being said, I think the point you've brought up in the rules does throw a slight curve into this logic, and I'm not sure what FFG intended. But of the two sets of verbiage, I think the one the two of you reference is the more likely culprit to be taken out of context (the way FFG tends to word things especially) just as with the word 'simultaneous' which is clearly not a strictly accurate word. Ergo I'd give the tie to dbmeboy until we have an official ruling, though I do believe you can make a case either way.

Your thoughts?

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magadizer said:

drkjedi35 said:

 

dbmeboy said:

 

 No abuse of language at all. You spend the token and change all focus icons to hit icons. There's no munimum number to change stated, so you could change zero.

 

 

From the Rulebook pg 12 under Modifying Dice Results (which is what a Focus token does) - Change: Some effects change one die result to a different result. To resolve this, the player  physically picks up the die from the common area and rotates the die so that its faceup side displays the new result.

How can you accomplish this if there are NO FOCUS RESULTS TO CHANGE?

Roy

 

 

 

Agreed, Roy.

 

dbmeboy, I think that's stretching common sense use of language. Could you change negative one dice as well?

 

Sure you could change negative one dice as well… let me know the first time you roll negative one focus results. aplauso.gif

To answer the shouted question from Roy… you do it by taking the focus token from next to the miniature and placing it in the bank (indicating that you have used it) and then physically picking up every die that shows a focus icon (none of them in this case) and turning them to a hit icon.  Seems pretty easy to me.  I'm sorry, I'm really not seeing why this is even an issue.  Where in the rules are you getting any indication that you have to have at least one focus result to use it?  For a parallel example, you could spend a target lock to reroll any number of dice and decide not to reroll any of them.  I don't know why you would want to do that, but it would be allowed.

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KarmikazeKidd said:

 Roy, mag, I agree that you have a point with the clarification of physically altering the die. However, I also think dbmeboy has a point. And I don't think he's trying to abuse the language. Through various mini games there are certain words that are very important and the language is key. For example, an action is generally only optional if the word 'may' is in front of it. Another example, and more relevant to this discussion, is the language of 'X may move UP TO 3 spaces and attack' vs 'X may move 3 spaces and attack'. In most games the first example would allow you to move 0, 1, 2, or 3 spaces before attacking, where as the second would require you to move precisely 3. Personally, I think the wording of the focus token is very similar to this and the word 'all' is essentially equivalent to 'any number' of focus results. Therefore you could spend it pointlessly to pass it on. I think this is ok as it would still require an attack or defense action to go down for it to pass. So if no one was in his arc of fire, and no one attacked him, he could not pass it off. That being said, I think the point you've brought up in the rules does throw a slight curve into this logic, and I'm not sure what FFG intended. But of the two sets of verbiage, I think the one the two of you reference is the more likely culprit to be taken out of context (the way FFG tends to word things especially) just as with the word 'simultaneous' which is clearly not a strictly accurate word. Ergo I'd give the tie to dbmeboy until we have an official ruling, though I do believe you can make a case either way.

Your thoughts?

Since the beginning of the ability reads "After spending a focus token…" we need to know what the rule is for spending a focus token.  According to the rulebook on pages 11 and 12 "Spending a Focus Token" If the attacker/defender (respectfully) has a focus token, he may return it to the action token supply during this step to change all focus results on the attack/defense (respectfully) dice to hit/evade (respectfully) results."  Then we have to ask ourselves what does FFG mean by "all"?  I don't agree with your interpretation of the word "all" to mean "any number of".  If I rolled 3 focus results, the word "all" tells me that if I use a focus token, I have to change "all" 3 dice to hits and not just one or two.  When I see the word all, I take that to mean "each and every one" and not "any number of". 

In the example you give above about movement in other games, I think the key is not the use of the word "may" as much as it is the use of vs the omission of the words "up to".

Roy

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dbmeboy said:

To answer the shouted question from Roy… you do it by taking the focus token from next to the miniature and placing it in the bank (indicating that you have used it) and then physically picking up every die that shows a focus icon (none of them in this case) and turning them to a hit icon.  Seems pretty easy to me.  I'm sorry, I'm really not seeing why this is even an issue.  Where in the rules are you getting any indication that you have to have at least one focus result to use it?  For a parallel example, you could spend a target lock to reroll any number of dice and decide not to reroll any of them.  I don't know why you would want to do that, but it would be allowed.

I apologize.  I did not mean to come across as shouting.  No more caps for me.

And I don't see why this is an issue either.  But I also don't see how you can pick up dice rolls that do not exist and change them, which is what you are supposed to be doing when you spend a focus token. Spending a focus token is changing a die roll.  If there is no die to change, how did you spend the focus token?  If I walk into a video game arcade (do they even have those anymore?) and put  a dollar bill into the change machine and it gives me 4 quarters back, I spent a dollar to get 4 quarters.  If the machine doesn't have any quarters, no change can be made.  So, I have to wait for another opportunity to make that change, when I find someone with 4 quarters.

Roy

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 Roy, I see what you're saying. But to clarify what I was saying first, those were actually two different examples, and 'may' just happened to turn up again in my example for the latter. Faulty example construction on my part. And yes, you're right, 'up to' was indeed the important part and what I was trying to get at. You're also correct in that my phrasing 'any number of' was poor. I did not think it through. You are correct in saying that you must change all results. What I was trying to get at is that people have argued before that because the word 'move' is in the example 'move up to 3 and attack' it implies that 0 is not an option, but in almost all of these cases it was ruled that 0 was an option, you did not have to move. 0 is a mathematical entity. And my further point was that by this logic 'all' being all inclusive refers to the number 0 just as much as the numbers 1-3. Does this explain my position better?

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drkjedi35 said:

dbmeboy said:

 

To answer the shouted question from Roy… you do it by taking the focus token from next to the miniature and placing it in the bank (indicating that you have used it) and then physically picking up every die that shows a focus icon (none of them in this case) and turning them to a hit icon.  Seems pretty easy to me.  I'm sorry, I'm really not seeing why this is even an issue.  Where in the rules are you getting any indication that you have to have at least one focus result to use it?  For a parallel example, you could spend a target lock to reroll any number of dice and decide not to reroll any of them.  I don't know why you would want to do that, but it would be allowed.

 

 

I apologize.  I did not mean to come across as shouting.  No more caps for me.

And I don't see why this is an issue either.  But I also don't see how you can pick up dice rolls that do not exist and change them, which is what you are supposed to be doing when you spend a focus token. Spending a focus token is changing a die roll.  If there is no die to change, how did you spend the focus token?  If I walk into a video game arcade (do they even have those anymore?) and put  a dollar bill into the change machine and it gives me 4 quarters back, I spent a dollar to get 4 quarters.  If the machine doesn't have any quarters, no change can be made.  So, I have to wait for another opportunity to make that change, when I find someone with 4 quarters.

Roy

No problem with the caps, it was just the easiest way to identify what I was replying to.

As far as your change machine example, I'm having trouble seeing how it applies to this question.  There's certainly a difference between exchanging to equal values and changing all of one thing into another.

 

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There is nothing in the rules that say there has to be a Focus result on the roll in order to spend a Focus token.  There is the window where you can spend the token and the results of doing so.  The result is still satisfied with no Focus results to change, as you've still changed all the (in that case 0) focus results to hits.

As stated the change machine example is not applicable as you are certainly not making an equal value exchange in spending a Focus token.  And frankly I've had many a change machine take my dollar and give me no quarters.

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You are right.  I see the flawed logic in the change machine example.  However, you guys have not taken into account the Modifying Dice Results section on page 12 of the rulebook.  A focus token requires a change of a die result.  Change is the key word here.  In that section, it clearly states "Change: Some effects change one die result to a different result."   Then it goes on to tell you how to resolve this change. "To resolve this, the player physically picks up the die from the common area and rotates the die so that its faceup side displays the new result."  This is what change has been defined as in this game.  You cannot physically pick up a [focus icon] die result and rotate it so that its faceup side displays the new result if there is not a [focus icon] die result to pick up.

I understand that in other games your logic is allowed.  But in this game there is already a description as to what happens when you change a die result using focus or any other ability that would allow you to change a die result.

Roy

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 What I'm saying is that there is nothing preventing you from picking up all of your focus results and changig them. It just so happens that changing all of them results in doing nothing.

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dbmeboy said:

 What I'm saying is that there is nothing preventing you from picking up all of your focus results and changig them. It just so happens that changing all of them results in doing nothing.

And what I am saying is that FFG has given their definition of the word Change.  In order for a change to happen (in this game) a die must be physically picked up.  If you cannot physically pick it up, then no change is made.  If no change is made, then you haven't spent a focus token.  The definition of change (in this game) requires you to do something, not nothing.  If you do nothing, you have not made a change and have not spent a focus token.

I keep stressing the fact that a definition of change has been made in this game, because most games do not define common words.  They assume that you will know what they mean.  But in this case, they wanted us to know exactly what they meant when they use the word change.  It requires the physical act or picking up a die result.  You cannot physically pick up something that does not exist.

Roy

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There is no qualifier given on the Focus ability that states you must actually have a die you are able to change in order to spend the token.  You can still spend the token dealing with only blank rolls because you are still meeting all the requirements of spending the token.  You've made a roll, you have the token, you spend the token, you change all the dice of a certain facing to another facing, you discard/move the token.  The fact that you don't change any of the dice is not relevant, because the rules make no mention of it being relevant to actually spending the token

You could very well be right that FFG meant for the token to only be used if there is a die that it can change, but if they meant so they didn't write the rules as such.  You are reading a qualifier that is not there.  It would need to be added.

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ScottieATF said:

There is no qualifier given on the Focus ability that states you must actually have a die you are able to change in order to spend the token. 

Under Spending a Focus Token on pg 11, "If the attacker has a focus token, he may return it to the action token supply to change…"   So you may return the token to do what?  To change something.  See the definition of Change under Modifying Dice Results on pg 12 which uses the words "physically picks up the die".  There has to be a die to physically pick up.

ScottieATF said:

You can still spend the token dealing with only blank rolls because you are still meeting all the requirements of spending the token.

To spend the token, you must change something.  Change what?  "…change all [focus icon] results on the attack dice to [hit] results." If anyone is still unclear as to what FFG's definition of Change is please refer (again) to Modifying Dice Results on pg 12.

ScottieATF said:

You've made a roll, you have the token, you spend the token, you change all the dice of a certain facing to another facing, you discard/move the token.

What have you changed?  Nothing.  If there are no [focus icon] die results to change, no change has been made.  If you are not changing something, you are not spending a focus token.

Roy

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I think our disagreement is less on what it means to change [something] than on what the phrase "change all [something]" means.  Specifically, can "all" mean "zero."  I see nothing in the rules specifying that at least one roll must have actually been changed to satisfy the requirement of changing all applicable rolls.  There were zero applicable rolls and you changed all of them.

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My argument is that not changing anything is an acceptable outcome of "change all" when all is zero.  Remember, that is actually the instruction for using a focus token: change all.  The question to see if you did that isn't "did I change anything?"  but "did I change all of the focus icons?"  If you had no focus icons rolled and therefore did not change anything, the answer to the question "did I change all of them?" would still be "yes."

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For the sake of clarity, I'm going to combine the definitions from the rules book to create a complete definition for spending a focus token:

If the attacker has a focus token, he may return it to the action token supply to physically pick up all [focus] results and rotate them to [hit] results.

That sentence gives one requirement (if the attacker has a focus token), one cost (return it to the supply), and one result (all focus results changed to hit results).  It does not require a non-zero number of focus results to be changed, as long as all of them are changed.

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