Rule Clarification: Assets in Archives

[Shazzama.Pajama 0]

The rules for the Access Phase on page 18 of the core rulebook state that if the runner accesses the archives he accesses all cards that are currently there.

Does this mean that the runner has no choice in the matter but to access all the cards and that the corps can pay the cost for any assets in his archives like Project Junebug, Ghost Branch, and Aggressive Secretary and attack the runner? Thanks

 

[KommissarK 209]

I'm reasonably certain you can't advance cards in the archives, nor would trashed assets enter the archives with their advancement tokens, and that's kind of the primary condition required with all the cards you mentioned. That said, Snare might have an effect.

Honestly it sounds deliciously legit to me. Still, it is meaningful to note there is no order when accessing these cards, so the player can first access/steal all agendas first, and then eventually be forced to access whatever other cards may trigger a negative effect.

 

[Toqtamish 3,643]

Assets cannot be installed in any of the central servers like Archives. Therefore they would have no affect as they are not installed in the server they are just sitting in the archives.

[Shazzama.Pajama 0]

 Ok yeah, looked at the specific rules for cards in the archives. all cards in the archive are considered to be inactive

[KommissarK 209]

But to change some of this, how would a card like Snare be treated?

I don't have my cards with me, but I know its wording is such that if the Runner accesses it, the corp may immediately spend credits to make use of it. Could such a thing occur when being accessed from the archives?

[Toqtamish 3,643]

No it would not work, Snare! says right on it " Ignore this effect if the Runner accesses Snare! from Archives. "

 

[KommissarK 209]

Ah, cool. Which should then mean then that cards without that text (but still having the "When accessed reveal to corp" wording) could be played that way.

[kaffis 407]

KommissarK said:

Ah, cool. Which should then mean then that cards without that text (but still having the "When accessed reveal to corp" wording) could be played that way.

No, it wouldn't. Shazzama.Pajama is still correct in that cards in Archives are always considered "Inactive," meaning their text cannot apply. Snare merely reiterates this explicitly.

[Toqtamish 3,643]

And just to add further clarity:

"Archives- This is the Corporation’s trash pile. Archives is
kept adjacent to R&D. This is where Corporation cards are
placed when they are trashed or discarded. Cards in
Archives are inactive." rules page 6

"Inactive: A state in which a card’s effects and abilities are ignored." rules page 31

[Khudzlin 734]

On the other hand:

Research and Development (R&D)-
This is the Corporation’s draw deck. R&D is kept facedown within reach of the Corporation. Cards in R&D are inactive.

And that doesn't keep Snare! from working while it is in R&D. The thing is that all of the other Ambush cards need advancement tokens, which they're not going to have in Archives (or R&D or HQ, for that matter).

[jjcole 2]

Khudzlin said:

 

On the other hand:

Research and Development (R&D)-
This is the Corporation’s draw deck. R&D is kept facedown within reach of the Corporation. Cards in R&D are inactive.

And that doesn't keep Snare! from working while it is in R&D. The thing is that all of the other Ambush cards need advancement tokens, which they're not going to have in Archives (or R&D or HQ, for that matter).

 

 

The card is still inactive while in R&D. As someone just posted above you, a card's text and abilities are not in effect when the card is inactive.

EDIT: Okay, I just read the text on Snare and it still seems odd. It does say to reveal it when accessed. But does the definition for "reveal" specify that it makes the card active, even if it was previously inactive? Obviously the card is meant to be active when accessed from R&D but I don't see what actually makes it become active.

[Butaman551 10]

Khudzlin said:

 

On the other hand:

Research and Development (R&D)-
This is the Corporation’s draw deck. R&D is kept facedown within reach of the Corporation. Cards in R&D are inactive.

And that doesn't keep Snare! from working while it is in R&D. The thing is that all of the other Ambush cards need advancement tokens, which they're not going to have in Archives (or R&D or HQ, for that matter).

 

 

 

Khudzlin is correct. Cards being inactive in the Archives is irrelevant when we are talking about Ambush cards such as Snare, Aggressive Secretary and so on. 

Take a look at the rules on page 6 under Remote Servers. 
"Cards in remote servers are active if rezzed and inactive if unrezzed."

We have already had confirmation from Lukas that ambush cards installed in servers do not have to be rezzed before the runner accesses them to take effect. The text on the card (When the runner accesses…) is what allows this. So we know that ambush cards still take effect even if they are technically inactive when the runner accesses them.  

So if Snare is accessed in R&D by the runner, he WILL suffer the effects on the card if the corp pays the credits for it. Of course, Snare also states that if the runner accesses the card from R&D, he must reveal it. It does not say that the card takes effect even if it is accessed from R&D, because it does not have to. Ambushes can and will take effect even if they are inactive. The only reason the Archives is safe, is because all of the current ambush cards either need advancement counters to work (no advancement counters in the Archives) or because the card actually specifies that it does not work if accessed there (Snare!).

The end result is the same, but it is NOT because the cards are inactive. Keep in mind, this only applies to ambush cards because they have the text, "When the runner accesses this card", which Lukas has confirmed…..somewhere on BGG. This means that there is room in future expansions for an ambush card that works from Archives as well.

[Toqtamish 3,643]

Khudzlin said:

On the other hand:

Research and Development (R&D)-
This is the Corporation’s draw deck. R&D is kept facedown within reach of the Corporation. Cards in R&D are inactive.

And that doesn't keep Snare! from working while it is in R&D. The thing is that all of the other Ambush cards need advancement tokens, which they're not going to have in Archives (or R&D or HQ, for that matter).

 

Good point. Good thing Snare! clearly has it all laid out on the card.

[Fib Gibbley 0]

 This exact question popped up in a recent game. The corp had a face down asset/ambush (can't remember the exact card, not snare) that could be advanced. He had 1 advancement token on it. He replaces the card with a different asset, and moves the card - and the advancement token - to the archives. I told him you can't have advancement tokens in the archives. He said you can, because the rules don't clarify that.

He said the true effect of a card being inactive in the archives is that the card cannot be advanced, but if it that card already has advancement tokens in it, then that card keeps those tokens because the rules do not clearly state that advancement tokens must be removed when cards enter the archives. Bear in mind this card was replaced by the corp, not trashed or discarded by any other effect. Is he right, by virtue of a strict rulebook interpretation? I couldn't find any exact wording to refute his position, and I ended up taking net damage when I ran his archives. If you can defeat his reasoning please use the rules only (not a common sense plea) and quote me the line and page number for support.

[Khudzlin 734]

Page 22: If a host leaves play, then all cards and counters hosted also leave play. This cannot be prevented.

[kitcat2 0]

Khudzlin said:

Page 22: If a host leaves play, then all cards and counters hosted also leave play. This cannot be prevented.

Trashing a card does not remove it from play.  Only way currently to remove a card from play is forfeiting an agenda.

[Malgamus 1]

 You can't advance cards in the archives and Snare doesn't activate from there. Also any advancements come off when they are discarded or trashed so they don't have a way to activate in the archives.

[Saturnine 47]

kitcat said:

Khudzlin said:

 

Page 22: If a host leaves play, then all cards and counters hosted also leave play. This cannot be prevented.

 

 

Trashing a card does not remove it from play.  Only way currently to remove a card from play is forfeiting an agenda.

 

Cards in play are cards that are installed. Trashing a card removes it from play. Forfeiting an agenda removes it from the game.

[kitcat2 0]

Saturnine said:

kitcat said:

 

Khudzlin said:

 

Page 22: If a host leaves play, then all cards and counters hosted also leave play. This cannot be prevented.

 

 

Trashing a card does not remove it from play.  Only way currently to remove a card from play is forfeiting an agenda.

 

 

 

Cards in play are cards that are installed. Trashing a card removes it from play. Forfeiting an agenda removes it from the game.

 

Archives is part of the corp play area, so cards that are in archives are still in play.  The only way to remove a card from play is to remove it from the game.

[Toqtamish 3,643]

kitcat said:

Saturnine said:

 

kitcat said:

 

Khudzlin said:

 

Page 22: If a host leaves play, then all cards and counters hosted also leave play. This cannot be prevented.

 

 

Trashing a card does not remove it from play.  Only way currently to remove a card from play is forfeiting an agenda.

 

 

 

Cards in play are cards that are installed. Trashing a card removes it from play. Forfeiting an agenda removes it from the game.

 

 

 

Archives is part of the corp play area, so cards that are in archives are still in play.  The only way to remove a card from play is to remove it from the game.

 

I am really confused why you are arguing this but you are wrong. Cards in archives do lose counters as they are no longer actively in play. Removing from the game is completely different and means there is no way for that card to come back. Cards in archives on the other hand are not actively in play but can be brought back with certain effects and be accessed by the runner.

[kitcat2 0]

 

Page 22: If a host leaves play, then all cards and counters hosted also leave play. This cannot be prevented.

 

 

I continue to argue, because this rule is badly worded.  Play is never defined and is used inconsistently in the rule book.  I was hoping someone would prove me wrong, instead of just saying I am wrong.

Where in the rule book does it say a card in the archive is not in play?

 

The rule would be much clearer if it said:

If a host card  is trashed, then any cards hosted by it are trashed and any hosted counters on it are returned to the supply.   This cannot be prevented.

If a host card  is forfeited, then any cards hosted by it are forfeited and any hosted counters on it are returned to the supply.   This cannot be prevented

[Saturnine 47]

That the state of being in play or the process of leaving play is not clearly defined in the rule book is one thing, and I can agree with that. However, ignoring the clear implication of the Hosting section about what constitutes leaving play is just being contrarian. Otherwise, any Parasite hosted on an opponent's ice sticks on there when that ice is trashed and ends up sitting in the opponent's discard pile? Any credit counters not spent on an Armitage Codebusting remain on the card after it's trashed? Those discard piles are getting filled with all kinds of junk, apparently. Also, it would mean I could not install a console if I already have one in my heap (because I can only have one console "in play"). So even without an explicit section on the terms "in play" and "leaving play", your interpretation is bizarre (as I suspect you are well aware) and clearly not how the game is supposed to work.

[Toqtamish 3,643]

So you are arguing to be difficult ? How is that helpful at all. It is pretty obvious that tokens do not remain on a card after it is trashed.

[Toqtamish 3,643]

And just to fully put this ridiculousness to rest a direct quote from the man, the myth, the legend, the games designer, Lukas:

 

a card sent to Archives will lose all of its hosted counters. Hope that helps,

-Lukas