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nathrotep

Incorporating the treasure cards back in(?)

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nathrotep said:

I addressed all your arguments. You don't seem to be able to read. I describe, in detail, what I'm trying to say. There are many more choices, as I have listed above. The main one being that there are an abundance of more cards; skill cards included. Also, I point out that these are two entirely seperate games. There are many reviews that agree with me across the internet. It's pointless for me to continue to argue with a 12 year old; have fun playing your game with all your little friends. I hope that this year Santa is extra good to you. Merry Christmas!

Links for said reviews?

Plus, the only one behaving like a child is you.

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First off, there are several reviews of Descent 2nd Edition that are based entirely on the game itself. The purpose of this review is for players, like me, who love Descent 1 and were hoping for more of the same with Descent 2.

I'd like to start with some background. I have been playing Descent 1st Edition for as long as I can remember. I own every expansion and have played nearly every dungeon and some several times. I have played both campaign expansions though not extensively with Sea of Blood as the ship battles were tedious. I was active on the forums to make sure I had all the rules right and I printed the full FAQ and referenced it often. I knew the rules well and so did my players (I was almost always Overlord). We knew the rules so well that the hero players knew what card I was about to play based on the amount of threat I was counting out.

I was very excited about Descent 2 and read every preview. When the rules were posted I read them twice in my free time at work. Then when I got the game itself I read the rules twice more; once to just to be sure and again when I thought I had to be missing something. I say this because the general response to a negative review is that I'm just not doing it right. My group and I can't figure out how people are able to enjoy this game in the same capacity as Descent 1. Remember, this review is for Descent 1 fans who wanted Descent 2 to be a natural successor. Also, this review is a comparison between vanilla Descent 1 (with no expansions) and Descent 2 which is the only way to be fair.

There are enough reviews about the good aspects of D2 so instead of re-hashing what has already been said I'm going to focus on the negatives.

Here are the reasons my group mutinied against D2 mid-quest in no particular order:

-Overlord doesn't get to spawn. Some quests let you replace 1 lost monster per turn, sometimes two but that's rare. And it enters the dungeon at a set location.

~One Overlord tactic always works and works too well: Put a large monster on a choke point and have your smaller monsters run for the quest objective. This boring tactic has seen the Overlord win every time.

-Heroes can only spend fatigue for movement or to trigger lackluster class abilities.

o No random draw for cool powers. Your class will always have the same starting setup and the same options as it levels up. Some are cool but most are just okay.

o No adding power die to beef up an attack, or adding just one more power die to finish a kill.

§ You get one primary attack dice and one power dice. In tier 2 you get two power die.

-No separate loot for potions, money and chests. Now it's a single token and you draw from a deck to see what you get: Potions, treasure, or the hated X (no loot).

o Potions are very limited. You won't see Silhouette running 19 squares to grab all the loot in a dungeon anymore.

-Once a hero gets knocked out, unless another hero helps him up, he'll be stuck getting smashed round after round by whatever knocked him out in the first place.

o This makes for a boring game for the hero team. Descent 1 was far better where the hero dies in a blaze of glory then comes right back the next turn at full strength ready to bash monsters.

-Dungeons are too small. I understand streamlining but it encourages the use of Bullet #2 and makes the dungeons a little claustrophobic.

-Attacking is heavily discouraged. Both sides need to use all their actions toward completing the objective, which is very easy for the Overlord and very difficult for the heroes, especially when using bullet #2 as the heroes have to pummel their way through a heavy defense monster while the Overlord is double-moving toward his goal.

By the end of the second dungeon my group and I saw that the Overlord would win every encounter within a couple of turns if he just ignores the heroes entirely and goes for the objective. So we house-ruled that monsters cannot double move (except with Dash). We also house-ruled that the X card in the loot deck was to be removed since so much of the heroes' potential lies with equipment.

The Overlord still won every encounter, and yes I tried playing on the hero team.

My group and I feel that D2 is not balanced for competitive play, and that's what we were expecting from Descent 2 based on what we liked about Descent 1. That said, even if D2 were balanced, the gameplay is simply boring. They have removed so many options for both sides of the table by making too many assumptions in the name of streamlining. The heroes chafed at not being able to use a Ready action for Aim and burn a ton of fatigue in order to get one big hit on the big heavy monster. Instead they had to hope for a good roll and also hope that the Overlord had a bad roll on defense. With D2 it seems to come down to luck since so many of your tactical decisions have already been made.

I've seen people say that D2 is supposed to be more like an RPG where the Overlord pulls punches and plays more like a DM. This is not what we signed up for. I've also read that it's more about hero progression which completely boggles me. You only have a few choices when you level up - generally A, B or C. With Descent 1 the possible combination of powers made each game very different.

If they had called Descent 2 by another name like Defenders of Terrinoth then I don't think I would be so negative about it. It's because I like Descent 1 so much that I find Descent 2 so disappointing. My wife's review of Descent 2 was that it played like something you'd get at Toys'R'Us - fun at face value but lacking tactical depth.

I already know the response to this: If I don't like Descent 2 then I should just play Descent 1. That's what we'r

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1. I see now you're resorting to ad hominem fallacies.

2. Interesting that so far pretty much no one in this entire thread as agreed with you.

3. Also interesting that you link to a 3 star amazon review and based on those numbers 12 people gave it 5 stars, 2 people 4 stars, and only 2 people 3 stars and you chose the most negative review. If this game was as bad as you say it is then where are the 1 and 2 stars? Why do people overwhelmingly rate it 4 or 5? Would you bet money that more people think that 1st edition is better than 2nd edition? I don't think you can argue that much more people like 2nd edition better than 1st.

4. You keep saying that I can't argue 1st edition with you because I haven't tried it - this is another fallacy. You are assuming simply because I haven't played 1st edition that I know nothing about it. I've talked to literally dozens of people that say 1st edition is just bad compared to 2nd. I've also read countless reviews and watched countless videos comparing 1st edition to 2nd all of which near unanimously agree that 2nd edition is just plain better. I also now own 1st edition and will say this - no one wants to play it because it takes forever to play and is bogged down with cumbersome rules and mechanics.

5. Just because a game has more cards doesn't mean it is tactically superior. Also I see you really have no argument so all you have left is again ad hominem attacks calling me a kid and some silly nonsense about santa.

6. I hope you realize your main argument (that people haven't tried 1st edition enough to argue that it is worse tan 2nd) is one that can be used against you. Post after post you make it fairly evident that you have no idea what you're talking about when it comes to 2nd edition. It sounds like you and your friends played the intro quest and one scenario after that and quit the game. I'll throw it right back and say that according to your own argument that you have no authority in stating 1st is better than 2nd.

7. It's evident that hero skills are not selected but randomly drawn (see http://www.descentinthedark.com/_s_/skill_cards.php). There is nothing tactical about acquiring random skills. Also the crux of your other main point is that 1st edition is more tactical because there are more treasure cards and that you really cannot win without them. So in 1st edition treasures (still random) are what essentially decide whether you win games or not - as in you either outgear your encounters or undergear your encoutners - yes that sounds very tactical… So according to your argument craps is less tactical than roulette because roulette has more possible random outcomes. 

8. In 2nd edition you are often faced with the decision of killing monsters or going after the objective and often it can be a tough decision - it sounds like in 1st edition all you really ever did was kill monsters - so again less decisions = less tactical.

9. In 2nd edition you gain skills and get to choose which skills you want. Further you get to choose what kind of class you want to be under each archetype instead of being dealt random crap.

10. How does a game having 47 treasure cards as opposed to 20 make it more tactical if with the 47 treasure cards you are dealt them randomly and with the 20 you have to manage your gold and choose what gear upgrades you want to buy? The 20, given the decisions, sounds much more tactical to me.

11. The OL has a customizable deck in 1st edition? 2nd edition does too. How are you even arguing this. I would argue that threat in the 1st edition limiting the overlord made playing the overlord less tactical as they were much more limited in their options of what to play at what time. My main point again being that less options = less tactical.

12. Its really funny that you keep hammering on the one quest in descent 2nd edition that was designed to help new players learn the game which most players will skip and is really of no consequence to your favorite 4 level dungeon quest in descent 1st edition. If this was an argument about star wars this is the equivalent of you saying that the light side is better than the dark side because the light side has jedis and yoda whereas the dark side has a stormtrooper. This is what happens when you compare the best part of something to the worst part of something - yet another fallacy.

13. If you agree that chess is more of a tactical game than checkers because there are more options in chess I don't see how you can argue what you've been arguing this whole time without contradicting yourself or making a huge errononeous assumption that more random outcomes = more tactical than more options to the player.

14. I'm going to just say that it really is unfortunate that you are resorting to ad-hominem attacks as I was looking forward to a great debate. However, instead you've only made it abundantly clear that you really have no idea how to use paragraphs, anything related to argument structure, or what comprises civil debate.

15. Good day sir.

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1. Your the one who was arguing about not having to 'eat **** to know you don't like it'. You write like you're an angry preteen all the time. Using paragraphs with numbers on them does not make you king of the debate team.
 
2. I didn't ask them to agree with me; I originally started the thread to gather ideas for incorporating the treasure cards back in. There were a few real people replying, then a bunch of people like you who, much like sheep, read everything on the internet and believe it. You have yet to even play the first edition. You keep going on about how everyone prefers the new edition. You are wrong.
 
3. I linked to one of the reviews that clearly states the side of the argument that I'm on; that there are other reviews is irrelevant. There will always be other reviews no matter what site you go to, mostly written by people who have never been into the first edition, or even played it, as much as myself or the gentleman who posted that review. There are just as many other negetive ones out there.
 
4. There you go with' talked to' and 'read' again. Can't you make your own decisions for yourself? I guess not. Obviously, you're just going to do the same thing I'm doing; stubbornly stick to your guns because you love your version so much. You keep saying that I repeat myself, while you're like a broken record over there with your second hand opinions. That, sir, is not the same thing as real experience.
 
5. That it has more cards means that you have more choices. Isn't that one of your complaints? That my version has less choices? Well, you're wrong there too.
 
6. In this instance, you are absolutely right. The fact I quit playing when I realized how crappy it was and before I wasted more time on it really says it all. But I do have to point out that I have stated that I will possibly go back and try the harder dungeons when they complete fixing the problems. Right now, the lack of cards and overall flavor of the game is very unappealing to me and absolutely no challenge.
 
7. Actually, randomizing only occurs within the selected class, and the cards are all good to have. The element of surprise at what you get, and then the ability to take that skill and use it effectively is the challenging part. The same way that using the treasure cards you are dealt can be fun and challenging. Plus, you get to distribute the treasure cards when you find them to all players right then. The weapons cards are specific to melee, ranged, or magic; there will always be someone on your team that can use them, even if you can't. Treasures don't decide the game, it's what tactics you use to achieve the objective. A tool is just a tool; they only help you if you use them right. When I say that it was almost impossible, I meant that it was **** hard! I liked getting the treasure cards to help tip the odds in my favor. But that didn't mean I would always win. The OL won more often than not. Outgear and undergear sound like words you made up; I have no idea what your talking about when you say them. That is total nonsense and doesn't have anything to do with Descent first edition.
 
8. In the first edition, this was the same. But, it was 100 times harder since you had to go through or around all the monsters to get there. I won't bother going into detail; it's self explanatory.
 
9. None of the cards were crap cards. You say it's better to choose, but your choices in descent 2 are boring. I'd rather have random skills that give me a tactical advantage than boring skills that I get to pick even when I don't need them. And what about subterfuge cards and treachery? None exist in the second edition. You can be your archetype or whatever; I'm too busy trying to figure out what the OL is going to do next, and what I need to do to stay alive long enough to thwart him.
 
10. The shop cards aren't dealt randomly; you buy them whenever you go to town. Also, you get 300 gold at the start which can get you meager equipment like they have in Descent 2. You have to earn the better stuff. Way more fun than second edition. The shop deck gives you more choices, which gives you more tactical decisions about what you want to use and towards what purpose. You can totally customize out your character. If you earn the gold to do it. And for that, you have to outsmart the OL first.
 
11. The overlord has way more cards to choose from, threat tokens to spend, and treachery. Limiting the OL to threat makes it so he has to work harder to get them. Guess what that means? That's right; he's 10 times more ready to go after the hero's to score those points and use his better cards. That, my young friend, makes him way more serious a threat. That in turn makes the hero's have to work that much harder. You can't even argue that. It's more fun this way, and much more of a challenge.
 
12. Because I reference the first dungeon of the base game does not make it my favorite. It's just the most simple dungeon in my version that I've compared to the most simple dungeon in your version. That's not even a contest there. If I tried to explain the best dungeon, your head would explode, you'd be yammering gibberish out your ******* and frothing at the neck wound to play it. Or, maybe not. Just sayin. And I prefer Star Trek.
 
13. Once again, there you go with the 'random' card. How does giving you great equipment, and then forcing you to make difficult choices in how to use that equipment properly differ from your stupid skill argument? It's like the same argument with different cards. I keep trying to tell you, you can buy stuff in this game. There are a ton of choices. And, when you get gold and loot, you can teleport back to town and buy better stuff. That's a choice you don't have in your version. How is equipping yourself with gear that you plan to use for a specific goal any less tactical than picking out skills? I'd say that it's just cooler, more fun, and better all around. But I'd guess that you're going to 'randomly' disagree with me there again, right?
 
14. This is not the debate club. I don't have to use numbered paragraphs. And as for your little foray into 'ad hominem' attacks, I though it was pretty **** funny. Plus I tried to spare your feelings because of your obviously young age. Did your daddy teach you that phrase(?)
 
15. Good evening, sport.
 

 

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1. Me making an analogy to eating **** has nothing to do with an ad hominem attack. Obviously you are reading what I write to be an angry preteen because it upsets you because you are wrong in more ways than one. Using paragraphs with numbers on them does not make me king of the debate team yes and I never argued that - I merely was stating that your failure to make use of paragraphs makes your flawed arguments even that much harder to read. If you're trying not to sound like a preteen making use of paragraphs is your first step.

2. The difference being your constantly imposing your opinion as a proven fact from the very beginning. You even argued that your play group didn't like 2nd edition better than the 1st and offered that as factual proof of your opinion. You can't have your cake and eat it to buddy. Either opinions matter or they don't. You can't say opinions matter for your point and not mine. Further, the fact that no one in this 6 page long thread has agreed with you even once makes it more likely to be true (much more) that you are wrong. The fact that you did or did not ask for them to agree with you is irrelevant - in fact I'm sensing a pattern in your arguments where you make more and more irrelevant points.

3. It may clearly state the side of the argument you're on but you posted this link trying to prove to us that 2nd edition is better than 1st. Just because you posted the link to the argument does not (1) make the argument more sound (which I don't believe it to be in the first place), and (2) change the fact that the number of reviews that state 2nd edition as a vast improvement over 1st edition greatly outnumber the alternative.

4. Part of the decisionmaking process in human beings is weighing all of the available knowledge they are presented. Often times this is in written or verbal form expressed by others based on their experiences and their own knowledge. My decision is based on numerous accounts both in person and online - no one made the decision for me - there is a big difference. From all of my research done on 1st edition and its mechanics compared to 2nd edition and its mechanics I've come to the conclusion that 2nd edition is definitely much more tactical and a vastly superior game overall. By your definition, no one can have any opinion on anything unless they experienced it first hand - I will again point to my analogy of theoretically eating **** - there are many things in life you don't need to experience first hand to have an opinion on it - in fact it makes it no less valid.

5. Again now I am questioning your reading comprehension ability. I clearly pointed out that merely having more cards does not mean more choices because in 1st edition NONE OF THEM ARE CHOICES. Random cards from a stack of more cards = no choices. Less cards but being able to choose from those cards = choices.

6. This is another problem. Where you see game-breaking problems - no one else really sees it. This I'm guessing is 90% due to your quitting after 2 scenarios (1 of which is meant to teach the game). Honestly if this game put its act 1 shop items in the search deck and were re-rendered and renamed to be cool sounding/looking magic items this problem would seemingly disappear for you. Which is why your argument makes little sense in that you are blowing this way out of proportion for something basically merely aesthetic.

7. So basically you affirmed everything I stated. The treasure and skills are all basically acquired randomly. Further, you state here that the treasures don't decide the game but now I am confused because you stated on multiple occasions throughout this thread that it is basically impossible for heroes to win in 1st edition without getting treasure. That to me is treasure deciding the game. Outgear and undergear are not words I made up - it is not nonsense and deals exactly with a seemingly huge problem with your argument. If it is impossible for heroes to win without treasure and they need treasure to win - the tactics boils down to getting the treasure or simply the right treasure. If you don't get the right treasure you lose. If you get the right treasure you win. The tactics behind those two options are non existant.

8. Nope doesn't make any sense. Another contradiction here by you saying that it was 100 times harder yet you also stated that that amazon review clearly stated your side of the argument. In that review the reviewer clearly states that the overlord wins every time. How can something in 1st edition be 100 times harder for the heroes if in 2nd edition the heroes lose every game?

9. Sounds like clunky bogged down mechanics to me. Also according to your own logic you cannot even compare the 2nd edition cards because you've played half a quest (not counting intro). The ability to decide things makes things more tactical - in 2nd edition you are given much more choices - they may be boring to you however the overwhelming majority of the human population that has reviewed descent disagrees with you. I don't care if you'd rather have random skills that has nothing to do with my argument that more decisions = more tactics.

10. In 1st edition you've stated that the majority of your gear will be acquired randomly through drawing cards through searching treasures. In 2nd edition most if not all of your gear will be awarded based on quests you choose and whether you win said quests or through saving gold and purchasing them with a equivalent random element of limiting your choices to number of heroes +1.

11. I can't even argue that? Every opinion I've ever heard regarding threat and 1st edition is that of it being clunky and good riddance. Also it's my opinion as well after reading how threat works. Limiting your options to one specific method of play (killing heroes as your only option) limits the game tactically. It makes the game more like checkers and less like chess when there are less and less options.

12. Regardless of whether or not the quest is your favorite - it speaks volumes that the 1st edition scenario you described is the simplest one in 1st edition. One of the most important aspects of a great game is that it is easy to learn but difficult to master. If the scenario you described is the intro equivalent of 1st edition it sounds like a terrible game to teach and a terrible game in general. Ad hominem attacks again - really these are only hurting your argument.

13. See #10.

14. I fail to see what debate club has to do with using proper english. If you don't think making use of paragraphs is good to use in communicating your thoughts then you're obviously not very bright. I never once said that you had to use numbered paragraphs. I used numbered paragraphs because I assume you have difficulty grasping basic concepts. Also I am not really that young I am probably older than you are seeing as how immature you are.

15. Lawyered.

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While I really can't be bothered reading through all these mammoth posts (though I have read some of them), and don't really want to get involved in a 'my opinion is superior to yours' argument, my and my groups feeling is this:

Road to Legend is VASTLY superior to Descent 2s campaign.

The overland map is largely pointless in D2, it's just a mechanic to decide how many cards to draw and what effects take place 'en route' (though it NEVER feels like travelling to me).  This means less choices for the heroes to make.

The progression in class powers is kinda cool, but I desperately miss the universal skills.  I think there needs to be a universal abilities deck that gets added to allow characters to diversify.  Otherwise, as someone else said elsewhere, all characters start the same, and by large progress and end the same.  That's dull.  It's also slightly linked with the first point too - tere was a lot of planning in RtL with 'I want that skill, it's learnt there, let's travel there'.  With no usable overland map, that's rendered moot.  Sadly.

I also agree with the original poster about the treasure deck.  I for one DO miss it.  When the search counter preview came out, I remember someone stating 'what would a dungeon bash be without treasure chests'.  Turns out, not one I find especially interesting.

I also REALLY feel the overlord gets the short straw in terms of campaign progression.  He was inundated with choices as to how to progress in first ed, in second add it's add another card.  I've said it before and I'll say it again, that is DULL.

It's a real shame.  I REALLY want to love D2, and I think when it first came out, I was initially wowed.  D1 had issues, sure, rules bloat and inconsistancies (and not ot mention some things that flat out did not work), but in my opinion, it made for a vastly more interesting dungeon bash game.  Which I think is the point - D2 is no longer a dungeon bash game.  They are as different to me as Halo was to Halo Wars.  It's just a pity D2 rendered D1 defunct and no longer supported…

Just my opinion.  As badly as this thread may have gone, I do find myself agreeing at least in part with some of the things brought up (as well as much of that Amazon review)

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Is it just me, or did someone break the thread formatting?

Natty doesn't seem to be interested in a discussion or a debate.  He's upset about the decisions FFG made for the Descent product line and he's here to vent.  I don't know if he has already written to FFG or posted in the D1E forums … maybe there's more of an audience here.

Troll or Ogre, he has some valid points, just doesn't express them very congenially.  I would agree that D1E sounds like a better dungeon crawl (and time sink) than D2E.  I haven't played it, but I have played other games in the genre.  FFG made a decision to take a different tack with the 2nd edition, probably based on customer feedback (or just the designer's whim).  That decision is popular with some people -- either those who provided the feedback or are new to the game -- and unpopular with those who were happy with the original & would have just preferred continued support.  No point debating with a zealot.

Once D2E has a few expansions, maybe opinions will change, and eventually when D3E comes out maybe we can all be unhappy together.

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In response to Triu, and Sausageman;
 
Thank you for at least identifying that I have some validity. I did not start this to troll or argue. As one of you pointed out, I am very zealous in my appreciation for a game that I believe has been reconstituted into something I can barely recognize. Some people, in their blind hatred for something they can never hope to understand, tend to lash out at my opinions, which makes me retaliate in kind. I apologize for my extreme defense of my stance, and hope that you both will continue to understand where I'm coming from. Now for mister Grumpypants…
 
 
 
 
 
 
In response to Khal;
 
Look, trying to explain this to you is like trying to describe colors to a blind person. You're never going to be able to understand it, nor do you have the capacity to do so. The fact that you think Descent second edition is such an amazing tactical game shows me right where your level of gaming skill and competency is at. I have all the expansions, every rule and variant for Descent first edition, and have been playing it for years. Even if you had the ability to learn the game, you don't have what it takes to play it, or even enjoy it on the levels that I do. People that complain about wonky mechanics are just the people that are not smart enough to figure out how to play the game properly. The game has always ran as smooth as butter for me with no problems. That there are a bunch of people complaining about how they can't play it right just shows that there are more idiots out there than smart people. Historically, there have always been more idiots than smart people on the face of the planet; that's an incontrovertible fact. If you don't believe me, just watch the news or read the newspaper. All of this is beside the point, and none of it matters, since FFG will be making the game better as they release more expansions. Slowly, and over time, so people like you will be able to understand it, they will reintroduce all the concepts from the Descent first edition until the second edition becomes just as good, if not better. That is inevitable. The more people that can understand how to play it, the more copies they will sell. That's simple supply and demand, my kooky young friend. It's just basic economics. Wait! I almost forgot! You only understand things if they're laid out in numbered paragraphs! Let me break it down for you, champ;
 
1. Descent second edition will get better as they release expansions until it is as good as, if not better than, Descent first edition. Nothing you can say will change that; you cannot stop it from happening.
 
2. FFG will do this slowly, over time, so that people like you will be able to figure out how to play it right and, thereby, will want to continue to buy it.
 
3. The color red is warm, like the sun. The color blue is cool, like water…

 

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Nathrotep, what you have just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

At least Triu and Sausageman know how to express themselves and make valid arguments. I understand the comparison the road to legend which I have read about and heard from my friends before. I've also read about that online and in video reviews as well so I understand that comparison quite well. Sausageman makes actually a very good point. I am wasting my time here with Nathrotep because it's the equivalent to debating what salt tastes like to a slug.

Anyway I had fun making you look foolish long enough. I really despise people who resort to ad hominem attacks as their only means of arguing a point. However, it does tell me one thing. You have no argument so you are wrong. Nothing you argue is relevant to any of your points or logically consistent.

You say that I have a blind hatred for something I can never hope to understand merely because I've formed an opinion (which I've clearly and logically argued throughout this thread without a single sound counterargument from you) about something I've read, researched, talked about, etc. So in your world people cannot have opinions about something they do not experience first hand. I guess everyone in your world has eaten **** in order to have an opinion on that. I don't want to be a part of your ****-eating world.

Your analogy to color contains a rather large assumption that everyone who experiences something 2nd hand through descrpitions, etc have some sort of absolute sensory deprivation which makes comprehending the 2nd hand experience impossible. It's really laughable that you think that's a proper analogy to your point and actually confirms my belief of your inability to grasp basic concepts.

Again I don't know what problem you have with using paragraphs or why you think I can only understand things if they're laid out in numbered paragraphs… I understood your page long block of text just fine even though it would have been much easier to read had it been broken up properly. Again I pointed out that the numbers were to your benefit because you clearly have trouble organizing and expressing your own thoughts let alone understand such complex things as basic logic.
 

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Silly nathrotep calling other people kids and saying they can't understand certain things when you yourself has the mindset of a 6-yearold who goes "My dad is greater than your dad!" and then stuffs his fingers in his own ears screaming "Nanananana, I can't hear you! lalalalala" from the top of his lungs just shows how stupid and immature you really are. And just proves my first post true that you are just trolling.

Funny thing you said aswell, being that you almos always played the OL. You must have really sucked ass as the OL if your friends ever won a single game of Descent. Since Descent is borderline broken in every aspect of the game. You must and really MUST use houserules to even make the game playable for the heroes to even stand a small chance of winning. I myself own every Descent game leading up to road to legends(most broken **** ever btw).

So what it boils down to in a regular game of descent is either 1. You steam roll the heroes so ******* hard that they will never ever play with you anymore seeing as you win 100% of the time, or 2. You hold back the entire quest and let them get the upper hand. And let me tell you, if those heroes ever get's ahold of those super broken powerful silver and gold items you might just aswell throw in the towel as the OL. Nothing can stop these heroes anymore, what you might hope for is to temporarly slow down your imminent doom by destroying some of their equipment.

So either you steamroll the player or you play like **** on purpose and lose as the OL. There is no middle ground here. And let's not even talk about those retarded quests you have to go through. Oh let me think of a good example, oh yes! The well of darkness expansion Quest 6: A hot time. Oh my god, makes me laugh every god **** time I see this completely broken untested quest. Just the size of it (41x38) makes you wanna vomit. Good luck getting through that quest before the OL reshuffles his deck for the 10th time. Let alone being able to play it anywhere else but on the floor unless you have some super size table to play on.

And my god does the game take forever to play! Just rolling the ******* dice and counting it up or choosing how you will spend your surges makes you wanna pull your hair out in frustration. So if you ever feel like playing Descent 1 Edition with a couple of buddies remember to bring that book you always wanted to read. Because you will be sitting doing absolutly nothing most of the game while your fellow players take their turns.

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The formatting on this thread is completely borked.  I had to resort to pasting each post into word so I could even read it….  Own up, who did it?  :)

I'm pretty sure this thread is at an empasse to be honest.  There are those that felt D1 was horrible, and D2 is amazing, and those that feel the exact opposite (and a few that fall somewhere in the middle it seems).

I do wonder how many of those are comparing campaign to campaign game, and how many are comparing stand-alone quest to stand alone quest.  There is a pretty significant difference between the two.  As the post above states, stand-alone D1 quests took HOURS (quite literally).  Howevre, I truly believe RtL fixed this issue completely (sure, it might have added more).  D2 on the other hand works fine for a stand-alone, but personally, I feel the campaign side of it has severely suffered as a consequence.

I can't wait to see D2 in 4 or 5 expansions time though, let me tell you.

Oh, and if there are any mods out there, can you try to sort the formatting please :)

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In response to all of you;

I went out and purchased a used copy of Descent second edition for $40. To fairly compare the two editions, I chose a quest from the first edition to play through, then a quest from the second edition. The quest I chose from the first edition is called; 'The Eternal Guardian', and involves a relic called, 'Bright Blade'. The quest I chose from the second edition is called; 'The Dawnblade', and also involves a relic called, 'Dawnblade'. Both quests involve a similar relic item, so I thought they would be good for this comparison.

For this comparison, I've chosen to use the exact same hero characters: 'Jonas the Kind’, 'Tobin Farslayer', 'Kirga', and, 'Runewitch Astarra'. I am running all four characters myself for both quests, and I have my OL running both quests with me. I will try to keep their basic starting equipment as closely the same as possible. I started with the first edition quest since I was certain that I would enjoy that one more than the second.

In the first edition, the characters start out with $300 gold, 3 random skills from the main Skill decks, and 3 random skills from the Feat decks, which I like to call the 'subterfuge' cards. The Feat deck cards you keep face down and use when applicable during your turn, or during the OL's turn. They are used to mess with the OL's plans. Once used, you then discard the Feat card. When picking a regular skill card, if the player doesn't like it, they can discard it one time to choose another which you must then keep. I actually like this method since you never know what you're going to get. To me, that makes it more interesting and much more of a challenge. You have to use the cards you're dealt and I think it's just more fun this way.

With the $300 gold, you may then purchase cards from the Purchase deck. These cards are fully assessable. You can look at them, touch them, READ them. Then, you can buy them. This is NOT random! I don't see how anyone can claim that it is. You choose the cards you want, then buy them.

Here I will break down for you which cards I drew from the Skill decks, and which cards I purchased from the Purchase deck, for each character. I will do a similar break down below for when I get set up for the second edition dungeon. Dice rolled for attack with weapons I will put by first letter of the color in parenthesis separated by slash marks.

Jonas the Kind

Skills: Tiger Tattoo- +1 speed, +1 max fatigue, no damage from pit traps.

            Brawler- +1 melee attack, one damage to all adjacent figures.

            Sharr the Brightwing (familiar)- Speed of 6, +2 health to characters it lands on.

 

Feats: We Are Not Afraid- Use at start of heros or OL's turn, result=OL loses 4 threat.

            Riposte- Use after OL attacks, result=counter attack.

            Fend- Use before OL rolls dice for attack, result= +4 armor for length of turn.

 

Basic Equipment:

            Chain mail- +2 armor.

            Sword- (R/G) 3 surges= +1 damage, offhand bonus= +1 damage.

            Morning Star- (R/Y/Y) 3 surges= +1 damage, offhand bonus= +1 dam/free surge.

           1 Health Potion

 

Tobin Farslayer

Skills: Marksman- +1 range for ranged or magic attack.

            Precision- Ignore 1 figure or obstacle for line of sight.

            Master Archer- +2 surges with a ranged attack.

 

Feats: Disarm- roll power die for traps within 3 spaces, result=if not a blank, disarm trap.

            Hustle- +3 movement

            Evade- use after a OL's successful attack, result= roll a surge to take no damage.

 

Basic Equipment:

           Chain Mail- +2 armor.

           Crossbow- (B/G) 2 surges= +1 damage, 3 surges= +1 range.

           1 Health Potion

 

Kirga

Skills: Shadow Soul (familiar)- Speed of 4, may switch places with Shadow Soul b4 turn.

           Swift- +2 speed.

           Cautious- OL receives 1 fewer threat per turn, take 1 less damage from traps.

 

Feats: Hustle- +3 movement.

            Hustle- +3 movement

            Disarm- roll power die for traps within 3 spaces, result=if not a blank, disarm trap.

 

Basic Equipment:

           Leather Armor- +1 armor.

           Crossbow- (B/G) 2 surges= +1 damage, 3 surges= +1 range.

           1 Health, 1 Stamina Potion

 

Runewitch Astarra

Skills: Inner Fire- +2 range, +1 damage.

            Necromancy- Reanimate 1 small, un-named enemy to control, roll power die after.

            Mata and Kata (familiar)- Speed of 6, can fetch and carry objects.

 

Feats: We Are Not Afraid- Use at start of heros or OL's turn, result=OL loses 4 threat.

            Transparent- Gain Stealth for rest of the turn.

            Protect thyself- +2 armor to every hero within 3 spaces for rest of turn.

 

Basic Equipment:

           Leather armor- +1 armor.

           Magic Staff- (W/Y) 2 surges= +1 damage or +1 range.

           1 Health Potion

 

The results of this game were: hero's won, play time approx. 6 or more hours, Jonas died twice and Astara died twice during the game. I won't go into detail, but below I will list the ending equipment, skills and/or training purchased, and feats that were used. (You draw one feat card for each player each time a glyph is activated).

 

Jonas the Kind

Ending Equipment: Dragon Scale Mail- +4 armor, speed reduced to 3, immune to

                                       bleed, burn, and poison.

                                  Mirror Shield- cancel 2 wounds, no effects tokens can be placed

                                       on you.

                                  Blade of Light-(R/G/G/Y/Y) +1 damage per surge, or pierce 10

                                  Bottle Imp (familiar) Speed of 4, aura of 1

 

Skills Purchased:    Unmovable- When using battle order, gain auto guard order, +1

                                       armor.

 

Additional Feats:    Blocked- Use after OL attacks, blocked on the roll of a surge.

                                 Killing Blow- Choose the results of your attack dice 1 time except

                                      the red one.

                                 Follow Through- +2 damage.

 

Tobin Farslayer

Ending Equipment: Wings of Regiroth- Gain the ability 'flying', +2 speed.

                                  Chain Mail- +2 armor.

                                  Bow of the Hawk- (B/G/G/Y) Pierce 3, may re-roll 1 die during

                                       attack.

 

Training Purchased: +1 power die for ranged attacks.

 

Additional Feats:    Shooting For Distance- +8 range.

                                 Shooting For Distance- +8 range.

                                 Backstab- 1 free attack before OL rolls attack dice.

 

Kirgo

Ending Equipment: Robes of Kellos-+3 armor vs ranged/magic, +1 armor vs melee,

                                        may equip 2 extra 'other' type items.

                                  Scorpion Helmet- +2 range, +1 damage.

                                  Bow of Bone- (B/G/Y) Peirce 3, 1 surge= +1 damage or range.

 

Skills Purchased:    Rapid Fire- Gain +1 attack for 2 fatigue.

 

Additional Feats:    ***** in the Armor- Pierce 4.

                                 Foiled Plans- Look at 2 OL cards; OL must discard 1.

                                 Shooting for Distance- +8 range.

 

Runewitch Astarra:

Ending Equipment: Black Widows Web- (B/Y/Y) 1 surge= +1 damage or range, 2

                                        surges= +1 web token.

                                  Mithril Breast Plate- +3 armor.

                                  Flame Strike (Rune)- (W/G/G/Y) Blast 2 and burn, 2 surges= +1

                                        blast or burn.

 

Skills Purchased:   Vampiric Blood- +1 fatigue for each killing blow.

 

Additional Feats:   Focus- +2 surges.

                                Flaming Fury- +3 burn.

                                Protect Thyself- +2 armor to every hero within 3 spaces for rest of the

                                        turn.

As you can clearly see, there are quite a few choices and different things that you can get in this game to give you a tactical edge, and I didn't even list cards that I sold or didn't use throughout the game. This is clearly not just a simple matter of if we 'renamed' the item cards in second edition then they'd be 'cool' enough for me to use. This is about having better items that do different things. Remember that you can go back to town by using glyphs to buy and sell equipment, purchase training tokens, or gain new skills. These are just the things I bought or chose to use in this particular game. You can choose anything and play it anyway you want, in any combination. There was nothing unbalanced about this, nor was it in any way over equipping or 'out gearing' the OL. The OL set up her deck using treachery points and the OL's treachery deck before the game. This treachery deck is used in addition to the OL's base deck. She had access to cards for all the monsters in the game when putting it together, plus all the special cards. This deck has 47 special treachery based cards. Trust me, she was plenty tough to beat. This game ran smooth, was very challenging, and a great deal of fun to play. In fact, we played a second dungeon after this one, and the OL won that one. It’s different every time.

Now let's take a look at the Descent second edition;

In Descent second edition you have to pick an ‘archetype’. This forces you into using a preset deck of about 10 skill cards. These are the only skills you will be able to get throughout the whole game. They incorporate ideas from the two types of skill decks in the first edition. Unless you are playing advanced or expert mode, you only get the default weapon/equipment and basic skill cards used by your ‘archetype’ to start with. If playing on expert, you also get 6 points to use to buy additional skills, and $250 gold to purchase items from the act I and act II shop cards. Since these cards are so limited, you are forced to get what you can. For example, there is only one suit of chainmail; I had to buy an act II set of armor that cost me my full $250 gold for Tobin. As you can clearly see, this is far less choices than Descent first edition in both skills and equipment.  Below is the breakdown of the starting skills and equipment I was able to get at expert level;

Jonas The Kind

Skills:  Prayer of Healing-Exhaust, hero + adjacent recover 1 red die health.

             Radiant Light-Roll power die; each hero in line of sight recovers amount rolled, monsters suffer

                                      damage rolled.

             Blessed Strike- Attack; if successful, you and 1 hero adjacent get 2 health.

             Time of Need- Receive 2 movement, recover 2 health.

 

Basic Equipment:

             Wooden Shield- Exhaust to add 1 defense to die roll.

             Steel Broadsword- (R/B) Once per attack; re-roll red die. Surge= +1 damage.

             Iron Mace - (B/Y) Surge=stun.

             Chainmail- +1 defense die.

             Dawnblade- (B/R/Y) Surge= +3 damage. Surge= attack effects 2nd monster adjacent.

                                             (gained this weapon at end of act 1)

 

Tobin Farslayer

Skills: Black Arrow- Bow attack gains +1 range, If less than 3 damage after defense, deal 3 instead.

            Bow Mastery- Exhaust to add 1 surge.

            Nimble- When a monster moves adjacent, move one space, then monster may activate.

            Eagle Eyes- Friendly figures do not block line of sight.

 

Basic Equipment:

            Platemail- Add one black defense die. Movement reduced to 3. Cannot equip  runes.

            Yew Shortbow- (B/Y) Surge= +2 range or +1 damage.

 

Kirga

Skills: Greedy- Search a search token within 3 spaces.

            Thief- After drawing a search card, you may pick a new one.

            Sneaky- +1 on attacks against monsters that did not have line of sight at the start of your turn.

            Dirty Tricks- Attack with melee or blade= If attack deals at least 1 damage, stun.

            Lurk- Exhaust to perform a search action that does count as an action. +1 brown defense die.

 

Basic Equipment:

           Leather Armor- +1 health. +1 brown defense die.

           Lucky Charm- Exhaust to reroll attribute test.

           Crossbow- (B/Y) Pierce 1, surge= +2 damage or +1 damage and move target 1 space.

           Throwing Knives- (B/Y) Attack adjacent monsters= +1 damage, surge= +1 range.

 

Runewitch Astarra:

Skills: Reanimate- (familiar) with 3 speed, 4 lives, no defense, (B/R) attack, surge= +1 damage.

            Raise Dead- Place your familiar token adjacent to you.

            Undead Might- familiar gains +2 health, exhaust= +1 to familiar’s attack.

            Vampiric Blood- familiar gains 1 yellow power die, +1 fatigue when defeating a monster.

            Dark Pact- Familiar gains 1 brown defense die, each damage suffered can be suffered by either

                                  you or familiar.

 

Basic Equipment:

            Leather Armor- +1 health, +1 brown defense die.

            Reaper’s Scythe- (B/Y) Surge= +1 range, defeat monster= +1 health.

            Ice Storm- (B/Y/Y) Surge= immobilize or +2 damage.

 

The results of this game were; hero’s won. Play time around 4 to 5 hours. No one died. In this game you just get “knocked out”. No one gets any points for it; it doesn’t really matter at all since you “revive”, or, “stand up” on your next turn in the exact same spot. In Descent first edition, you get a set amount of ‘conquest tokens’ for each dungeon, and you gain tokens from chests and by activating glyphs. When the OL kills a hero, they get the amount of points that the hero is worth in conquest tokens. If the hero’s ever run out of tokens, you lose the game. Also, in Descent first edition, you get gold for killing the red monsters. In the second edition, you get absolutely nothing.

I would list the ending equipment, but it was exactly the same as the starting equipment except for the Dawnblade, which I got at the end of act 1. There was nothing to collect, buy, or trade, no way to upgrade your character, and no real reason to do so. It was pretty much what you had to start with for the whole game.

This game had no weapons bonus for the off-hand weapon, there was no buying and selling items, no extra skill cards. There were no feat cards, no upgrading your skills and abilities, and no purchasing training. There were no treasure cards, no gold, no points awarded for kills. There was no equipping better gear, no way to get better gear, and no added danger that would require you to do so. There was no danger of losing just from running out of conquest tokens. The map itself was incredibly small. In Descent first edition, the dungeons are huge with lots of room to move. There was no room to maneuver in the second edition, no way to out flank, no opportunities to achieve your objective in any other way than to go straight at it. This game was not tactical at all. Pretty much you just went towards your objective while the OL either tried to stop you, or tried to achieve the OL’s own objective first. I cannot believe this got such good reviews. I am just really glad that I didn’t pay full price for this.

As far as the person who commented that his OL in the first edition was beating him, and saying that the dungeon they were playing was ‘broken’, well it’s just too bad that the OL figured out a way to win then, isn’t it? When that happens to me, I ask for a rematch. Sometimes it takes 2 or 3 tries, but I never let a dungeon go without beating it. Maybe you should have tried harder.

In conclusion, Descent second edition is not better than Descent first edition. In Descent first edition, your characters grow, develop, gain strength, new skills, better gear, new weapons and become richer with gold. By the end of the game, whether you win or lose, you feel as if the characters have been on a long journey and have become better and stronger for the experience. In Descent second edition, there is none of this growth or satisfaction. Your characters are the same as when they started. And, since you don’t gain anything at all in terms of new skills, weapons, gear, or even gold, there is absolutely no satisfaction from seeing that they have developed from their original personas. This flat and featureless game sucks away all the fun of what playing a good dungeon adventure should be. This was a fair comparison done with both games played back to back. I have stated the cards used for each game, the rules, and the outcomes. If you just look at this comparison between the two games, it is abundantly and perfectly clear that I am right when I say that Decent first edition is the better game. There is nothing more to say.

 

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Please open a new thread.

This one is wrecked, as the display

is unreadable.

One must do a copy-paste

in a text editor to read the posts.

I did.

You prefer D1.

We knew it.

Your comparison is

subjective, so

you cannot say that

D1 is a better game

as if it were an objective

fact.

And comparing one

quest with one quest

is all but a serious

demonstration.

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This is a fair comparison; I do not need to play the second edition again.

It was bad enough to get through the first time after playing the real one.

It's enough to just look at the two games side by side; Descent one

offers more options and is by far the better game. It's not even a contest.

I have listed everything in this comparison; it is perfectly obvious.

 

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Well, if you think that you are the measure of perfection and that your limited comparison is objective, I don't think we can debate any further.

I don't believe in your being such a reference and I don't consider your comparison fair, as it is partial.

Of course, there is no problem that you prefer D1 over D2.

But that is not an objective fact - otherwise players who like both or who prefer D2 are just stupid (which I don't think is the case).

Stick to D1 and have fun: that is all the good I can wish for you.

As for me, I am sticking to D2 and having fun.

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nathrotep said:

Have you even played Descent first edition?

No need for me to.

It is another game.

No need for me to compare D1 and D2 nor to tell the world that one is better than the other.

As a reminder, this whole thread was started with your complaining about D2 as not giving you the fun you had with D1 and your wanting to change D2.

We all know that you prefer D1: all the better for you.

As for me, I enjoy D2 as it is. I don't need anybody to tell me that D1 is "better" : have fun on your side, and I have mine on my side.
But don't even pretend that your anecdotical analysis is a definitive one.
It happens that many D1 players like D2 too and even some switched from D1 to D2.
Many D1 players keep with the first edition.
Many D2 players like D2.
All tastes are in the nature.
No one is smarter or better than the others.
And D1 is not "better" than D2, nor D2 "better" than D1.
That type of "contest" belongs to kindergarten, IMO.

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Then you don't even know that I'm right since you've never played it.

My response was answering several other replies I got. A lot of people said that

Descent 2 was the better game. Most of them have never played Descent first edition.

I thought maybe since I had only played it once, that they might have a point.

So I tried it again and made my comparison.

They were wrong. After playing the first edition, the second one is terrible.

Specifically, some of the things they said were;

Descent second edition is more tactical; it isn't.

Descent first edition is a 'broken' game; it isn't.

In descent first edition, it's just a matter of 'out-gearing' the OL; it isn't.

Descent second edition has better skills; it doesn't.

Descent second edition has more options in game play; it doesn't.

The Descent first edition rules were 'wonkey'; they're not.

These are some of the things that I have proven by playing both games

and writing my comparison. The first edition clearly blows away the second edition.

It's fine if you like the second edition; have fun with that.

But you cannot say that I am wrong since you have never played the first one.

The first edition is the better game on so many levels. The second edition is just a

dumbed down version of it.

But, as you say, it's totally fine that you have fun playing the second version.

I wrote my comparison to prove the points listed above, not to put you down.

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I am not saying that you are wrong in your preference for D1.

I am saying, as many already said on this thread, that your opinion is not fact. It is subjective.

The anecdotical proof you submitted is far too limited and dependant on your negative bias vs. D2 to have any decisive value - not even speaking of an objective one.

Now, I think all that could have been said has been on this thread.

Have a nice day.

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Okay, so you're saying that it's just my opinion and I'm biased.
I get that. You're saying that it's a personal choice and not a fact.
I get that too. Let me just stick to the facts then.
Let me just list things that are actual facts that cannot be refuted by you.
 
DESCENT FIRST EDITION HAS:
 
-More skills
-Two different types of skills
-More 'other' items
-More weapons
-More armor
-More runes
-More treasure
-More familiars
-More magic items
-More OL cards
-Special treachery OL cards
-More monsters
-More traps
-Larger dungeons
 
Now, you can say that 'more' does not necessarily mean 'better'.
I've heard that argument before. But, you cannot refute that more
means more choices. And with more choices, you have more ways
to do things throughout the game. For example;
 
IN DESCENT FIRST EDITION YOU CAN:
 
-Buy and sell weapons
-Buy and sell armor
-Buy skills
-Buy training
-Buy and sell runes
-Upgrade your character in any way you choose
-Go outside your characters 'archetype'
(which means that you can use anything you want)
-Use glyphs to teleport to different parts of the dungeon
-Upgrade the OL deck before you start with treachery cards
-Customize your hero's in any way you choose
 
Once again, you could say personal preference is the issue.
But with all of these choices, you have several different ways to play the game.
The OL has several different ways to win, and so do the hero's.
You don't have that in Descent second edition. What do you have in Decent second edition?
 
WHAT DESCENT SECOND EDITION HAS THAT FIRST EDITION DOESN'T:
 
-Absolutely nothing.
 
So, once again, you can say that it's still just my opinion.
That it's a personal choice. That everyone has the right to like
or not like either game. And you would be right. But, surely you
can clearly see that after playing the first edition, the second
edition seems a very limited and not so complex game?
Can you not agree that, after playing the first one, the
second would seem to me to be a boring, dumbed down,
complete waste of my time? To me, that makes the first edition better.
And, since most of you won't even play it, you will never know how
much better it really is. I own and play both versions. I have
read through the rules, been through both games; how many of
you can say that? I think that I have more experience, have done
more research, and am more qualified than you to make these
observations. Even if they are biased.
 
The first edition has more of everything, is more complex
has better character expansion, better OL threat, more options,
it's more challenging, more thought provoking, and therefore
is a much better game.
 
But you go ahead and have fun with Descent 2. Nothing wrong with
that.

 

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Now, one thing is sure.
You don't need to post more on this Descent second edition forum to say that it is BS.
Be sure that I won't myself go on D1 forums to say that the first edition is crappy.burla

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nathrotep

Everyone is perfectly entitled to their own opinion… even if it is wrong.

 

D1 & D2 are quite different games, even if they do share the same core game mechanics.

 

D1 is more of a single session affair… you level up your character, find random items, aquire some random skills…. and have a blast in about 2 to 4 hours.

D1 is one of my favourite board games of all time.

 

D2 is a more of a multi-session affair.

The outcomes of each encounter combine to create a driven narrative thread that continues from game to game.

While Descent 1 was pretty much a simple Overlord vs Player mechanic… D2 is more Overlord vs Objective vs Player… with either the OL or the PCs scrambling madly around the map trying to either complete an objective or prevent the other side from completing theirs.

The skills and items aquired are slowly, slowly built up over multiple plays…. and I would say, it makes the later game much more rewarding than D1, where you basically start out from scratch each time. And there is variety even within a single skill deck.

D2 is one of my favourite board games of all time.

 

D1 and D2 are both different flavours of the same basic ingredient.

It's fine to pick a favourite - but you shouldn't berate people just because they have different tastes.

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