play restrictions

[kr4ng 11]

If you have a card that has an effect that says you can duplicate the effects of another card, (e.g., archmaester marwyn), in order to duplicate the effect you still must always meet the play restriction for that effect, right?  So you couldn't duplicate your own at the gates, because the play restriction on at the gates, wouldn't allow it.  What about duplicating someone elses at the gates if you are not running a city plot?

[ktom 598]

kr4ng said:

If you have a card that has an effect that says you can duplicate the effects of another card, (e.g., archmaester marwyn), in order to duplicate the effect you still must always meet the play restriction for that effect, right?

No. You are duplicating the effects, not the initiation. Checking play restrictions is part of the initiation, so they are not copied. The play restrictions you have to meet are those on the card that has the "copy" effect, not those on the card whose effect you are copying.

The exception to this is any target requirements on the original effect.

So, for example, say you have a character that says "if you are the first player, kneel this character to copy the effect of an event card just played by an opponent." Your opponent plays an event card that says "after you win a military challenge, choose and kill a participating character." If you want to copy that event with your character, you have to be the first player (play restriction on the effect you are initiating), but you do not have to have just won a military challenge (play restriction on the effect you are copying). But you can only use your copied effect to kill a participating character (target requirement on the effect you are copying).

kr4ng said:

So you couldn't duplicate your own at the gates, because the play restriction on at the gates, wouldn't allow it.  What about duplicating someone elses at the gates if you are not running a city plot?

For Marwyn and "At the Gates," you have to meet Marwyn's play restrictions (the "when revealed" plot card has to be in a player's used pile), not the play restrictions on the plot card you are copying (the "if you have no City Plots in your used pile"). You do, however, have to follow the "in-House or neutral Maester, printed cost 3 or lower" restrictions on which card you can pull, though.

If you do use Marwyn to resolve a City plot that refers to the number of City plots in "your" used pile as part of knowing how to resolve the effect (for example, City of Soldiers and killing a character with STR equal or lower to the number of City plots in your use pile), you always read it as if it was your plot. So you count the number of City plots in your own used pile, even if you are copying the "when revealed" plot in an opponent's used pile.

[ktom 598]

BTW: The "short" version of this is - 

"You are initiating Marwyn, not the plot. So you look at the play restrictions on Marwyn, not the plot."

[doulos2k 26]

 Sorry to pile on… but how is this copy effect different from City of Spiders copy effect? I'd always been told that City of Spiders cannot copy At the Gates because of the restriction of not having any other City plots in your used pile.

[Bomb 66]

The difference between Marwyn and Spiders is that Spiders uses the term "trigger" and Marwyn uses the term "resolve".

"trigger the 'when revealed' effect of any City plot card in your used pile."
"resolve the 'when revealed' effect of any plot card in any players used pile."

Triggering requires a point of initiation while resolving is already past that point.

If that is not it, then I don't know.

[ktom 598]

That would be it.

Notice that I said above, you are initiating Marwyn, not the plot. But City of Spiders specifically says to trigger (ie, "initiate") the plot. 

City of Spiders is not a true "copy" effect (where you trigger card A and get the effect of card B). It is a card that lets you initiate another card (where you trigger card A, the effect of which allows you to trigger card B).

[kr4ng 11]

Thanks for the clarifications!

[Khudzlin 734]

City of Spiders (as well as the River plots) also feature a very unfortunate use of the word "trigger" (since "when revealed" effects are passive, not triggered).

[mdc273 29]

But triggering an effect is the last step of initiation. Why would a card triggering (or copying) an effect have the initiation restrictions apply to it? Isn't trigger an effect synonymous with resolve an effect?

[Bomb 66]

mdc273 said:

But triggering an effect is the last step of initiation. Why would a card triggering (or copying) an effect have the initiation restrictions apply to it? Isn't trigger an effect synonymous with resolve an effect?

Not necessarily.  An effect that is triggered still initiates and is considered to have been triggered if it is canceled.  However, an effect that is triggered and thus canceled is never resolved.

In order to trigger an effect, you must check play restrictions and costs during the point of initiation.

[orion_kurnous 0]

I dont understand this very well. sorry

If Marwin dies and copy at the gates effect, can you search a maestre although you have a city plot, but if you use city of spiders you can´t search, is this?

[dcdennis 39]

 Ty this gives me a disgusting idea for worlds. I'll be sure to bookmark this thread when people question what I do

[Ratatoskr 34]

Wow, it works with Manning too. Disgusting indeed.

[ktom 598]

Remember that this distinction between "resolve the effect" (Marwyn) and "trigger the effect" (City of Spiders) is based on the way that "copy the effects" things work.

If you are going to build a deck around it for worlds, you may want to verify that, since the word "copy" is not actually used in either Marwyn's effect or City of Spiders, the official position does not equate "trigger the 'when revealed' effect" and "resolve the 'when revealed' effect". Based on other templating rules, they shouldn't (so that "resolve" ignores the "in order to initiate" play restrictions on the plot and "trigger" does not), but I've been surprised before.

[Ratatoskr 34]

ktom said:

If you are going to build a deck around it for worlds, you may want to verify that

This is a fairly important point, with the popularity and power level of both At the Gates and Manning. I'm gonna send this to FFG, but since I haven't had a great deal of luck getting responses from them lately, it might be best if somebody else could bring this to their attention, too. Dennis, will you?

Anyway, I'd appreciate it if anybody who gets official word on this would post it here.

[dcdennis 39]

Ratatoskr said:

ktom said:

 

If you are going to build a deck around it for worlds, you may want to verify that

 

 

This is a fairly important point, with the popularity and power level of both At the Gates and Manning. I'm gonna send this to FFG, but since I haven't had a great deal of luck getting responses from them lately, it might be best if somebody else could bring this to their attention, too. Dennis, will you?

Anyway, I'd appreciate it if anybody who gets official word on this would post it here.

sent. But like you my last two ruling requests have gone unanswered.

[dcdennis 39]

 Just heard back from ffg ---

Rule Question: "can marwyn copy at the gates or manning the city walls? ktom says yes because he uses the word resolves instead of trigger but suggested we double check with the authorities. [i link to this thread]"

 

Answer (damon): "Yes he can".

[Ratatoskr 34]

dcdennis said:

 Just heard back from ffg ---

Rule Question: "can marwyn copy at the gates or manning the city walls? ktom says yes because he uses the word resolves instead of trigger but suggested we double check with the authorities. [i link to this thread]"

 

Answer (damon): "Yes he can".

Thanks Dennis, but tbh I'm not sure the question was asked in an ideal way. There was never any doubt that Marwyn could copy those plots, the question was can I use him to copy them while I have a City plot in my used pile. My impression is that everybody at FFG is in an awful hurry these days, and I wouldn't be surpised if Damon had just read "can marwyn copy at the gates or manning the city walls?" and thought "Sure can!" without taking the time to read the thread or ponder the implications. I might very well be utterly and totally wrong, of course, in which case I apologize deeply and abjectly to all offended parties.

[dcdennis 39]

marwyn can only copy plots in the used pile, so by definition if he is copying anything, it is in the used pile. and since at the gates and manning are both city plots, there would thus have to be a city plot in the used pile.

[dcdennis 39]

 hold the phone ladies and gentlemen, looks like we have further clarification which at first glance appears to contradict ktom:

ktom:

For Marwyn and "At the Gates," you have to meet Marwyn's play restrictions (the "when revealed" plot card has to be in a player's used pile), not the play restrictions on the plot card you are copying (the "if you have no City Plots in your used pile").

 

from damon:

"It should be noted you can only use this if it is in your opponent's used pile AND you have no City plots in your own used pile. "Resolve the effect" seeks to resolve the entire effect, including restrictions, while copy the effect, only looks at what theeffect and not restrictions or costs."

[ktom 598]

dcdennis said:

 hold the phone ladies and gentlemen, looks like we have further clarification which at first glance appears to contradict ktom:

from damon:

"It should be noted you can only use this if it is in your opponent's used pile AND you have no City plots in your own used pile. "Resolve the effect" seeks to resolve the entire effect, including restrictions, while copy the effect, only looks at what theeffect and not restrictions or costs."

I told you. I was basing the answer on the rules for "copy," but since Marwyn doesn't use the word "copy," there was a possibility FFG was seeing the difference between "resolve the effect" and "trigger the effect" the way they see the difference between "lower the cost" and "reduce the cost."

[Bomb 66]

There's alway Grand Maester Pycelle from The Raven's Song to kill if you are very interested in recycling At the Gate or Manning the City Walls plots.
It's a terrible idea, yes.

Old Bear Mormont wouldn't be able to respond and cancel Marwyn's ability, right?  Not that I'm trying to find an anti-Marwyn preparation or am terribly unsure, but the question is worth asking.

[Ratatoskr 34]

I got the same response from Damon:

"Copy and resolve are different things.

You can only use this if it is in your opponent's used pile AND you have no City plots in your own used pile. "Resolve the effect" seeks to resolve the entire effect, including restrictions, while copy the effect, only looks at what the effect and not restrictions or costs."
 

[ktom 598]

Bomb said:

Old Bear Mormont wouldn't be able to respond and cancel Marwyn's ability, right? Not that I'm trying to find an anti-Marwyn preparation or am terribly unsure, but the question is worth asking.

You're going to have a really hard time convincing anyone that the resolution of the "when revealed" effect on a plot card in someone's used pile (using Marwyn) satisfies the "just been played" restriction on Old Bear Mormont's ability, I think.

Ratatoskr said:

I got the same response from Damon:

… while copy the effect, only looks at what the effect and not restrictions or costs."

Although there is one glaring exception to this general "copy" rule. Ours for the Taking specifically copies a card's "ability," not its "effects."

[Slothgodfather 270]

ktom said:

Ours for the Taking specifically copies a card's "ability," not its "effects."

Since that event says to pay any additional costs, it wouldn't be much use to use it on a location that said to "kneel and discard this location to…" since you would still be discarding the location right?  

Well, I suppose if it was already knelt from some effect (such as the plot that kneels all locations) then you could get around that.