Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
R5Don4

Expert Handling and Barrel Roll

Recommended Posts

I notice expert handling costs 2 points.  Hardly seems worth it just to be able to get rid of a target lock for the imperial player -- since they can already do a barrel roll this really doesn't help them as much if it is the same ability.  Probably is worth it for the X-Wing since it can't currently do a barrel roll (so, they both get to do a barrel roll -- albeit with a stress token penalty -- AND remove a target lock). 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Not In Sample

 The argument is pretty silly and nit-picky if you ask me… even when answered in an email, people still won't accept the answer and pretend that somehow things would have been different if the question was asked again while referencing the name on the card. I am really glad I don't play with rules lawyers here….. sheesh… it's crazy that this topic needed to be put into a second thread as if having this conversation once was not enough…. If you want the answer that contradicts the rulebook then you and your friends play the game however the hell you want to play it and pretend that you are in the right…. but we don't need to have another thread started up on the same exact nonsense. Wow… just… wow.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think they r continuing the convo here dude since the email didnt directly answer one of the questions, whihc i think then the question is is expert handling considered the same action as a barrel roll. My opinion from reading this is yes, as it states perform a barrel roll action, but the unclear thing ppl r wondering is is expert handling considered its own action since it also allows the barrel roll performed to remove a target lock. The whole can vader barrel roll twice has been answered and is no.

My view so far is that a ship can only do one barrel roll. But again is an upgrade card is considered a different action then that changes it. I am sure this will be addressed however in the first errata

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 My thoughts are in the other thread that the original poster linked above. 

Clearly the wording could have been slightly improved on the expert handling card. 

Vader cannot play expert handling and also perform a barrel roll because expert handling IS a barrel roll action (and a stress token, and a possible target lock removal).  You can never perform the same action 2x in a single turn.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Daveydavedave said:

expert handling IS a barrel roll action

And this is the claim in contention.  Expert handling is an action.  Barrel roll is an action.  Expert handling doesn't say, "This starfighter may perform a barrel roll even if it otherwise could not…" it says, "Action:…"  Without a direct response to an appropriate question or a rules clarification, there isn't an answer (feel free to point out somewhere in the rules where it states that using Expert Handling is considered the same as using a Barrel Roll, then I will concede the point).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

dbmeboy said:

Daveydavedave said:

expert handling IS a barrel roll action

 

And this is the claim in contention.  Expert handling is an action.  Barrel roll is an action.  Expert handling doesn't say, "This starfighter may perform a barrel roll even if it otherwise could not…" it says, "Action:…"  Without a direct response to an appropriate question or a rules clarification, there isn't an answer (feel free to point out somewhere in the rules where it states that using Expert Handling is considered the same as using a Barrel Roll, then I will concede the point).

Expert handling is not an action. Expert handling is the card name. Expert handling only allows you to perform the additional action:

Action: Perform a barrel roll. Penalty if this sentence's condition is not met. You may then gain the benefits in this next sentence.

 

Now the rulebook says a ship may perform any action shown in the action bar of its Ship card.

Since there are no actions shown in the action bar, only icons > Each icon is the action > Each icon in the action bar is equivalent to "Action: whatever the icon means"

 

If Vader has Expert handling he would be considered to have the following five actions:

Action: Perform a focus

Action: Perform a target lock

Action: Perform a barrel roll

Action: Perform an evade

Action: Perform a barrel roll. Apply penalty if any. Then benefit from performing the barrel roll.

of which he can select two to perform.

The way I see it, action three and action five makes you perform the same action. The additional sentences in action five are not actions, they are penalties and rewards gained if conditions are met.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 Well said.  This is a more articulate version of what I was getting at above:  Expert Maneuvers is clearly designed to perform the barrel roll action + extra goodies.  So again, a barrel roll is a barrel roll, and you cannot perform 2 in one turn.

 

Why spend the 2 points on this card for Vader?  You might ask…

Imagine a world where one lock target per turn gets removed.  This means no rerolls, and most importantly it blocks all proton torpedoes.  Every single alliance ship has access to torps and lock target.  WELL worth 2 points to cancel all (or most all) of that.  The only counter is to double lock him, but then he can dodge out of one arc and cancel the relevant lock.  

I'll play test it and let you know how it goes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

ArcticSnake said:

If Vader has Expert handling he would be considered to have the following five actions:

Action: Perform a focus

Action: Perform a target lock

Action: Perform a barrel roll

Action: Perform an evade

Action: Perform a barrel roll. Apply penalty if any. Then benefit from performing the barrel roll.

of which he can select two to perform.

The way I see it, action three and action five makes you perform the same action. The additional sentences in action five are not actions, they are penalties and rewards gained if conditions are met.

Another interpretation, in the format Action Name: Action Result

Barrel Roll: Perform a barrel roll

Focus: Gain a focus token

Evade: Gain an evade token

Expert Handling: Perform a barrel roll, etc

 

If that is how it works, the rules would prohibit you from performing actions with the same name twice, not actions with similar effects twice.  I honestly have no idea how FFG meant it to work, I'm just trying to point out that it isn't well defined.  Hopefully they'll eventually respond to one of the rules queries sent to them…

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 A rewording would help.  They could bold and capitalize "barrel roll" in the text or use the symbol.

Still, I think the intention that Expert Maneuvers is a barrel roll + other stuff is clear.  So you can't do 2 of em in one turn. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And the rulebook doesn't help much with being consistent as well, if you look under the Barrel Roll entry you would notice it used the capitalized Barrel Roll, the all smallcaps BARREL ROLL, and the lower case barrel roll.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And after a few days wait, I have heard back from FFG:

"Thank for you for submitting your rules question.

To ensure accurate and complete information, we are spending time collecting questions and compiling answers for this brand new game. Once this process is complete, we will answer your question in a timely manner.

Thank you for your patience!

-FFG Customer Service"

 

…well never mind then.  More waiting it is.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

ArcticSnake said:

 

And the rulebook doesn't help much with being consistent as well, if you look under the Barrel Roll entry you would notice it used the capitalized Barrel Roll, the all smallcaps BARREL ROLL, and the lower case barrel roll.

 

 

It is consistent.

 

It's "Barrel Roll" in the table of contents and action listing, which is proper.

It's "BARREL ROLL" when the term is first introduced in paragraph text, as with other terms appearing for the first time.

It is "barrel roll" in all other cases.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

DagobahDave said:

 

ArcticSnake said:

 

And the rulebook doesn't help much with being consistent as well, if you look under the Barrel Roll entry you would notice it used the capitalized Barrel Roll, the all smallcaps BARREL ROLL, and the lower case barrel roll.

 

 

It is consistent.

 

It's "Barrel Roll" in the table of contents and action listing, which is proper.

It's "BARREL ROLL" when the term is first introduced in paragraph text, as with other terms appearing for the first time.

It is "barrel roll" in all other cases.

 

 

So that means that a "Barrel Roll" is a "BARREL ROLL" is a "barrel roll"!  Hurrah! :)

(I'm so exited waiting for that FAQ to arrive)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 After reading through this thread, I'm honestly confused as to the exact nature of the issue. Could someone summarize and clarify for me? I initially took it to be whether or not using Expert Handling constituted performing a barrel roll action. But I don't see why this matters, and also figured it would be answered by the fact that they DID rule that Vader could not do both. Vader can perform two actions. He can't do both. The rulebook says you can't do the same action twice. Ergo they're the same thing. But regardless he should be the only instance where it matters. So I'm confused. What is the real issue in question here?Some other aspect of the game that's affected?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

KarmikazeKidd said:

 After reading through this thread, I'm honestly confused as to the exact nature of the issue. Could someone summarize and clarify for me? I initially took it to be whether or not using Expert Handling constituted performing a barrel roll action. But I don't see why this matters, and also figured it would be answered by the fact that they DID rule that Vader could not do both. Vader can perform two actions. He can't do both. The rulebook says you can't do the same action twice. Ergo they're the same thing. But regardless he should be the only instance where it matters. So I'm confused. What is the real issue in question here?Some other aspect of the game that's affected?

The original question was "Can Vader do both a Barrel Roll and  Expert Handling in his turn?". 

1. On one hand, Expert Handling says to perform a Barrel Roll. Which tells me that Vader cannot perform another barrel Roll on his turn.
2. On the other hand, the Action is CALLED "Expert Handling" and not "Barrel Roll" which makes it different than the Barrel Roll action.  So Vader would be able to do both.

This is the debate, and it will go on until a ruling is made by FFG.

Roy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 Ok then, thanks. My confusions stems from the fact that I could have sworn one of the responses on this thread said they had responded and said that Vader could not do both. That being solved, I figured there had to be some other relevance. Woops.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

dbmeboy said:

Daveydavedave said:

expert handling IS a barrel roll action

 

And this is the claim in contention.  Expert handling is an action.  Barrel roll is an action.  Expert handling doesn't say, "This starfighter may perform a barrel roll even if it otherwise could not…" it says, "Action:…"  Without a direct response to an appropriate question or a rules clarification, there isn't an answer (feel free to point out somewhere in the rules where it states that using Expert Handling is considered the same as using a Barrel Roll, then I will concede the point).

[Expert Handling] is an UpgradeNOT an Action
You do not Perform Action: Expert Handling.
You have the Upgrade [Expert Handling] which allows you to Perform Action: barrel roll. 

is this discussion still going on?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Strombole said:

 The argument is pretty silly and nit-picky if you ask me… even when answered in an email, people still won't accept the answer and pretend that somehow things would have been different if the question was asked again while referencing the name on the card. I am really glad I don't play with rules lawyers here….. sheesh… it's crazy that this topic needed to be put into a second thread as if having this conversation once was not enough…. If you want the answer that contradicts the rulebook then you and your friends play the game however the hell you want to play it and pretend that you are in the right…. but we don't need to have another thread started up on the same exact nonsense. Wow… just… wow.

So wanting to play by the rules and having questions about an ambiguous card makes people rules lawyers now? No one is forcing you to read this thread. If you and your friends want to play a sloppy game, that's your prerogative but no one really cares. What people do care about is knowing the rules. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here's another perspective…

You say "I perform the Action : Expert Handling, which allows me to do two barrel rolls…"

but, do you say "I perform the Action : Swarm Tactics which allows me to improve another pilot's skill"

If you DO say Swarm Tactics is an "Action", then you have just used up your Action for that round, yes? 
But, wait.  Swarm Tactics doesn't say Action:, so it doesn't cost an Action step to perform.

Do you say I Perform Action : R2-D2, so after executing this green maneuver, I may recover 1 shield"? 
NOPE!  it just says "Do this : Get this" R2 is an Upgrade.

These are Upgrade cards, not Action cards.  Some Upgrade cards allow you to perform Actions, others don't.  That's why they say "Action: do something"

So, the Action you are permitted to perform is Action : barrel roll, which -since you are so awesome that you can be referred to as having "Expert Handling" abilities, causes your enemy to lose their target lock on you.  You're just that skilled a pilot. 

If you are in a Tie fighter, you have lost a Target Lock, but the barrel roll wasn't especially difficult as your ship is designed to do them, your wing mates do them all the time, but you can do it with such Expert Handling, that you can actually cause a computer to lose it's Target Lock on you, whereas they remain target locked even if they do perform barrel rolls.

Now, if you're in an X-Wing, you're an even more skilled pilot, because your ship isn't designed to do that maneuver, thus you take some stress from actually being Expert enough with your Handling of this star fighter that you can make it do a barrel roll, while your wing mates are unable to even execute that maneuver.  You lose your Target Lock also, but at the cost of taking some stress.

So, Upgrades are not Actions.  Some upgrades permit you to perform Actions.

And Since Darth Vader is allowed to perform 2 Actions, He can perform one Action: barrel roll, and some other action.  If he has Expert Handling, then he will lose a target lock by performing a barrel roll at any time.  But he cannot perform 2 consecutive barrel rolls, as the rulebook clearly states that "a ship cannot perform the same action more than once"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, Expert Handling is an upgrade card that provides an action.  And the action it provides is very similar to the barrel roll action (and even includes all of the effects of the barrel roll action as a subset of its provided action).  Is that enough similarity to call it the "same action," which is what the rules care about?  Who knows… FFG didn't really provide a very rigorous definition of actions.  I certainly don't know which way they'll end up ruling on this one, but I do know that the rules we have at this point do not give enough information to settle the issue.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...