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El_Tonio

Why can't Luke and Vader Use the Force?

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I've been wondering why they did not work the Force into this game.  Seems they could very easily have done so.  For example, Luke and Vader might cost a bit more but come with 1 or 2 Force points per game (or maybe their point cost didn't change, but you could chose to purchase Force point upgrades from you squad points -- each Force point would cost 2 points, and Luke could purchase up to 2 and Vader could purchase up to 3… or something like that to balance things out). 

You could use Force points to reroll one dice.  Or, you could use the Force to lower the difficult of a move (green would stay green, but white could become green, and red could become white).  Or, maybe they could move 1 extra straight after their regular move.  Doesn't have to be anything too powerful, just something to add a minor twist to the game.  Maybe some would cost two Force points and others would cost just one.

Why do you think they didn't include the Force in the game in some way that is a little different than the various actions everyone can take in the game?

Do you have other ideas for house rules about how you can add the Force to the game?

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 I kinda saw their special abilities as just that.  Vader gets 2 actions because he can use the force to let him multitask.  And Luke gets to use his force enhanced senses to help evade incoming attacks.  At the time of the first deathstar run, Luke was barely out of his Jedi Diapers and Vader was an old pro.  So you'd figure Vader would have a heck of a lot more influence than that newbie punk, skywalker.  So dual actions for Vader and some extra evasiveness for luke fits.

I don't see any reason that you'd need to create any additional rules to simulate force sensitivity.  So few pilots would have it, that if you aren't using Vader and Luke at the time it wouldn't matter anyway.  But if you really want to houserule something, go for it.

-DavicusPrime

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DavicusPrime said:

 I kinda saw their special abilities as just that.  Vader gets 2 actions because he can use the force to let him multitask.  And Luke gets to use his force enhanced senses to help evade incoming attacks.  At the time of the first deathstar run, Luke was barely out of his Jedi Diapers and Vader was an old pro.  So you'd figure Vader would have a heck of a lot more influence than that newbie punk, skywalker.  So dual actions for Vader and some extra evasiveness for luke fits.

I don't see any reason that you'd need to create any additional rules to simulate force sensitivity.  So few pilots would have it, that if you aren't using Vader and Luke at the time it wouldn't matter anyway.  But if you really want to houserule something, go for it.

-DavicusPrime

DavicusPrime said:

 I kinda saw their special abilities as just that.  Vader gets 2 actions because he can use the force to let him multitask.  And Luke gets to use his force enhanced senses to help evade incoming attacks.  At the time of the first deathstar run, Luke was barely out of his Jedi Diapers and Vader was an old pro.  So you'd figure Vader would have a heck of a lot more influence than that newbie punk, skywalker.  So dual actions for Vader and some extra evasiveness for luke fits.

I don't see any reason that you'd need to create any additional rules to simulate force sensitivity.  So few pilots would have it, that if you aren't using Vader and Luke at the time it wouldn't matter anyway.  But if you really want to houserule something, go for it.

-DavicusPrime

 

I agree but are their abilities really that much better than the non force sensitive unique pilots? Youd think that the force would be a fair bit more powerful than just experience flying… perhaps ffg playtested this and found it made them too overpowered.

Personally I would have given Luke free target locks or focus (after all, he can bullseye womp rats in a t-16 and shoot into tiny spaces without the aid of his targetting computer)

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R2D2 said:

 

DavicusPrime said:

 

 I kinda saw their special abilities as just that.  Vader gets 2 actions because he can use the force to let him multitask.  And Luke gets to use his force enhanced senses to help evade incoming attacks.  At the time of the first deathstar run, Luke was barely out of his Jedi Diapers and Vader was an old pro.  So you'd figure Vader would have a heck of a lot more influence than that newbie punk, skywalker.  So dual actions for Vader and some extra evasiveness for luke fits.

I don't see any reason that you'd need to create any additional rules to simulate force sensitivity.  So few pilots would have it, that if you aren't using Vader and Luke at the time it wouldn't matter anyway.  But if you really want to houserule something, go for it.

-DavicusPrime

 

 

 

I agree but are their abilities really that much better than the non force sensitive unique pilots? Youd think that the force would be a fair bit more powerful than just experience flying… perhaps ffg playtested this and found it made them too overpowered.

Personally I would have given Luke free target locks or focus (after all, he can bullseye womp rats in a t-16 and shoot into tiny spaces without the aid of his targetting computer)

 

 

Well, they have a really high piloting skill. They are still limited by their technology - even perfectly sensing where their target is, they have to make do with the limitations of their craft. The only way to get around such limitations is using a more direct and elegant weapon, like a light saber, instead of clumsy and archaic weapons like blasters or spacecrafts. But they might have a bit of a problem with that in space.

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Davicus makes a good point.  Additionally, Force-based abilities might be part of an Episode II/III expansion, when there are more than two force users in the Galaxy…

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I appreciate these points, especially those of DavicusPrime and R2D2.  But, it still seems like there would be room for Force points for these two characters.  Obviously too late for this game, but I might give them a try in some of my games at home.  Maybe they will end up being too powerful, but I'm hoping not (especially since both sides would potentially have access to them via Vader and Luke -- but, maybe that is the problem… they would probably be auto-includes if they had FP and no one else did, though since I've not had a chance to play the game yet, it's quite possible that that is the case already). 

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El_Tonio said:

but, maybe that is the problem… they would probably be auto-includes if they had FP and no one else did, though since I've not had a chance to play the game yet, it's quite possible that that is the case already). 

You've just stumbled on part of it. If the Force is a more meaningful mechanic than what is already reflected by their pilot abilities (and those pilot abilities stand out among the crowd even so, since they're always on, offer no drawbacks, and don't require specific actions to benefit from them), they become either preposterously more expensive, points-wise, or become auto-includes. As such, they're two of the three most costly pilots to field already, and their pilot abilities and special skills reflect the thematic uses of their particular talents.

 

The other problem with increasing their capabilities and then trying to increase their points correspondingly is that it throws other parts of the game out of whack. If you make Luke a 40 point ship that is correspondingly valuable mechanically, then the 4 point R2-D2 is worth way more than 4 points defending him vs. defending a less valuable Rebel fighter. So do you value R2 at 4 points, as would be appropriate for protecting Biggs or a Rogue Squadron pilot, or do you value him at 6 points, which would be more in line with protecting quite literally half your 100-point squadron's power with his shield regeneration?

 

And so on.

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kaffis said:

El_Tonio said:

but, maybe that is the problem… they would probably be auto-includes if they had FP and no one else did, though since I've not had a chance to play the game yet, it's quite possible that that is the case already). 

 

You've just stumbled on part of it. If the Force is a more meaningful mechanic than what is already reflected by their pilot abilities (and those pilot abilities stand out among the crowd even so, since they're always on, offer no drawbacks, and don't require specific actions to benefit from them), they become either preposterously more expensive, points-wise, or become auto-includes. As such, they're two of the three most costly pilots to field already, and their pilot abilities and special skills reflect the thematic uses of their particular talents.

 

The other problem with increasing their capabilities and then trying to increase their points correspondingly is that it throws other parts of the game out of whack. If you make Luke a 40 point ship that is correspondingly valuable mechanically, then the 4 point R2-D2 is worth way more than 4 points defending him vs. defending a less valuable Rebel fighter. So do you value R2 at 4 points, as would be appropriate for protecting Biggs or a Rogue Squadron pilot, or do you value him at 6 points, which would be more in line with protecting quite literally half your 100-point squadron's power with his shield regeneration?

 

And so on.

I like this point, too.  Would allowing you to purchase Force points for these two characters help fix it?  For example, perhaps it is an OPTIONAL upgrade for Luke and Vader.  Say 2-4 points per Force point with an upper limit of 1 or 2 for Luke and Vader respectfully.  Seems like that would allow it to be included in a way that would not change R2's value (i.e., the increase is worked into the cost of Force points and not upgrades).  Seems like that would be possible to balance out, no?

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El_Tonio said:

kaffis said:

 

El_Tonio said:

but, maybe that is the problem… they would probably be auto-includes if they had FP and no one else did, though since I've not had a chance to play the game yet, it's quite possible that that is the case already). 

 

You've just stumbled on part of it. If the Force is a more meaningful mechanic than what is already reflected by their pilot abilities (and those pilot abilities stand out among the crowd even so, since they're always on, offer no drawbacks, and don't require specific actions to benefit from them), they become either preposterously more expensive, points-wise, or become auto-includes. As such, they're two of the three most costly pilots to field already, and their pilot abilities and special skills reflect the thematic uses of their particular talents.

 

The other problem with increasing their capabilities and then trying to increase their points correspondingly is that it throws other parts of the game out of whack. If you make Luke a 40 point ship that is correspondingly valuable mechanically, then the 4 point R2-D2 is worth way more than 4 points defending him vs. defending a less valuable Rebel fighter. So do you value R2 at 4 points, as would be appropriate for protecting Biggs or a Rogue Squadron pilot, or do you value him at 6 points, which would be more in line with protecting quite literally half your 100-point squadron's power with his shield regeneration?

 

And so on.

 

 

I like this point, too.  Would allowing you to purchase Force points for these two characters help fix it?  For example, perhaps it is an OPTIONAL upgrade for Luke and Vader.  Say 2-4 points per Force point with an upper limit of 1 or 2 for Luke and Vader respectfully.  Seems like that would allow it to be included in a way that would not change R2's value (i.e., the increase is worked into the cost of Force points and not upgrades).  Seems like that would be possible to balance out, no?

You have to remember that in regards to upgrades you not only have the cost of the upgrade, but the built in cost that is the ability to take that upgrade.  So even costing Force Powers as upgrades you'd still need to readjust Luke and Vader's cost for their ability to now take those upgrades.  Without that and assuming Force Powers are at all worthwhile you'd make Luke and Vader auto-includes.

More over the addition of Force Powers doesn't really fit thematically with this game.  Force Users, Jedi, Sith, etc have generally proven to make great pilots.  They have the Force to aid their reflexes and guide their instincts, but as said they are still limited by the craft they operate.   Even with all their powers and abilities Force Users are not necessarily the best pilots in the end.  Also the EU has shown little in the way of their ability to use those powers during a dogfight.

I feel as if the addition of Force Powers would be needlessly unbalancing and not fit in this setting.

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El_Tonio said:

I like this point, too.  Would allowing you to purchase Force points for these two characters help fix it?  For example, perhaps it is an OPTIONAL upgrade for Luke and Vader.  Say 2-4 points per Force point with an upper limit of 1 or 2 for Luke and Vader respectfully.  Seems like that would allow it to be included in a way that would not change R2's value (i.e., the increase is worked into the cost of Force points and not upgrades).  Seems like that would be possible to balance out, no?

I think you're missing my point about R2. R2's value can be a fixed, set value because the value of the cards he's "protecting" has limits that are, generally, within a reasonable range of each other. The cheapest card he can protect is 22 points (including his own), and the most expensive ship he can protect is worth 41 points (Wedge + R2 + Torpedoes + a 4-point Elite Tactics). Luke is one point cheaper than Wedge, so adding additional upgrade options to Luke just sends that higher. If a Force Power is valued at 4 or 5 points, now you can load half your points into one ship, and R2 can defend half your fleet, or barely a fifth of it. And that's just too big a range to put a fair price on R2 that doesn't make him way too expensive to pair with, say, Biggs or a Y-Wing pilot.

 

Furthermore, what would you do with Force powers that couldn't be represented by pilot abilities? It's not like even the EU has Jedi pilots flinging starfighters around with the Force to smash their enemies into each other or anything. No, what we see are little tricks, like Luke's preternatural ability to sense danger and narrowly avoid it more often than he should, or Vader's consummate skill as a pilot. These are represented by Luke's always-on one-Focus defensive conversion, or Vader's ability to do everything a normal pilot could -- but do it all at once.

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i think a lot of people make good points, especially that the pilot is limited to the craft, and that lke and vader already have powerful abilities. A force upgrade that gives you a re-roll once per game, or allows you to choose a new manuever once per game, for an appropriate points cost, would be an acceptable way of doing it but like others have said you dont want to make these 2 pilots auto includes.

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Because this is a space combat game. Other than Ben encouraging Luke in the trench run, I don't remember the Force being directly utilized during space combat during the movies. An argument could be made for enhanced awareness/reflexes, but I think that's reflected in their pilot skills/abilities.

I for one hope the game stays as is. Putting a bunch of Force abilities would ruin it.

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2BitGeek said:

Because this is a space combat game. Other than Ben encouraging Luke in the trench run, I don't remember the Force being directly utilized during space combat during the movies. An argument could be made for enhanced awareness/reflexes, but I think that's reflected in their pilot skills/abilities.

I for one hope the game stays as is. Putting a bunch of Force abilities would ruin it.

Totally agree with this statement. In The Saga Edition roleplaying game by WotC they tried to spin some tale about Luke using the Force to hurl the proton torpedoes into the death star exhaust port. That was their rational for Jedi not being able to use an "automatic critical hit" ability with vehicle weapons. I thought that their reasoning seemed really suspect, but I did understand that allowing Jedi to auto-crit with vehicle weapons in the RPG could be a game-breaker.

Bottom line, I think the Force is well represented in these pilots' stats, and doesn't need any other mechanic.

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2BitGeek said:

Because this is a space combat game. Other than Ben encouraging Luke in the trench run, I don't remember the Force being directly utilized during space combat during the movies. An argument could be made for enhanced awareness/reflexes, but I think that's reflected in their pilot skills/abilities.

I for one hope the game stays as is. Putting a bunch of Force abilities would ruin it.

I was always under the impression that Ben, through the Force, calmed Luke down enough to feel the Force.  And because of that action, Luke was able to focus (pun intended), and hit the target.

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Well, I see I'm outnumbered by a substantial margin. serio.gif

I still like and will give the idea a try, but maybe it wasn't a great idea for official game play.  But, this has definitely given me some ideas to consider when doing so. 

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El_Tonio said:

…though since I've not had a chance to play the game yet… 

I think this is the most important point to note.  It's not a condemnation at all, so please take no offense.  I think once you've played the game a dozen or so times as is (at least), you may be in a better place to determine whether or not the rules need any tinkering.  It's fun to imagine different ways of playing the game, but IMHO, until you actually get some games under your belt and play it the way the designers intended, it is extremely difficult to improve the game. 

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El_Tonio said:

I appreciate these points, especially those of DavicusPrime and R2D2.  But, it still seems like there would be room for Force points for these two characters.  Obviously too late for this game, but I might give them a try in some of my games at home.  Maybe they will end up being too powerful, but I'm hoping not (especially since both sides would potentially have access to them via Vader and Luke -- but, maybe that is the problem… they would probably be auto-includes if they had FP and no one else did, though since I've not had a chance to play the game yet, it's quite possible that that is the case already). 

El_Tonio said:

…though since I've not had a chance to play the game yet… 

I think this is the most important point to note.  It's not a condemnation at all, so please take no offense.  I think once you've played the game a dozen or so times as is (at least), you may be in a better place to determine whether or not the rules need any tinkering.  It's fun to imagine different ways of playing the game, but IMHO, until you actually get some games under your belt and play it the way the designers intended, it is extremely difficult to improve the game. 

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kaffis said:

 

 

I think you're missing my point about R2. R2's value can be a fixed, set value because the value of the cards he's "protecting" has limits that are, generally, within a reasonable range of each other. The cheapest card he can protect is 22 points (including his own), and the most expensive ship he can protect is worth 41 points (Wedge + R2 + Torpedoes + a 4-point Elite Tactics). Luke is one point cheaper than Wedge, so adding additional upgrade options to Luke just sends that higher. If a Force Power is valued at 4 or 5 points, now you can load half your points into one ship, and R2 can defend half your fleet, or barely a fifth of it. And that's just too big a range to put a fair price on R2 that doesn't make him way too expensive to pair with, say, Biggs or a Y-Wing pilot.

 

 

I see your point but think your example proves that this is no different to the example which already exists in the game, which you gave!

R2 currently costs the same defending a 22 point ship as defending a 41 point ship! so right now he can be defending 2/9 of your squad or 5/12 of your squad for the same cost! seems like a pretty big difference to me! (almost double!) If this is not a problem currently, then making it a very slightly larger gap shouldnt be either! your concept of an acceptable range is merely a subjective and non backed up statement. you might as well be arguing that the current difference is too big, but that were the most expensive ship 3 points cheaper, this would be acceptable…

what are you basing your logic on? what tolerance is acceptable and why? your argument seems to preclude the concern that it is already a problem, surely?

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 I don't think R2-D2 is unbalanced in the way he protects a greater or lesser portion of your squad. If more points are in one ship, that ship will be getting the brunt of attacks. If two ships (one with R2-D2) are facing a swarm of TIEs (or 4 TIE Advanced with missiles), the TIEs can overwhelm R2-D2's ability because they get so many chances to fire without R2 getting a chance to recharge shields. As long as the opposing player focuses all their attack on the ship with R2-D2, his benefit is diminished. If the opposing player spreads their attacks around, R2-D2 is much more useful. I believe that the utility of R2 is much more dependent on strategy than how many points he he "protecting."

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