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Astral

Dark Heresy = Rogue Trader

73 posts in this topic

LeBlanc13 said:

Peacekeeper_b said:

 

Well at least you are modest about it.

 

 

Am I the only one that finds it funny that your name is Peacekeeper and yet here....not so much. :)

Well, its more  reference to Farscape's Peacekeepers then anything else. So, yeah, I do my job well.

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Oh, when that Xenos book for Rogue Trader (RTX) comes out, it will be far more reaching and comprehensive.  It will have the sort of Orks encountered in space.  Flyboyz, Ork starships, Space Hulk Orks, Mekboyz, and Gretchin engineers. CA has Eldar, RTX will have more pirates, Eldar Ships, discussion of craftworlds... In other words, the material covered will expand to be of interest to those playing that type of game.

I'd put money on it.

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Jephkay said:

Oh, when that Xenos book for Rogue Trader (RTX) comes out, it will be far more reaching and comprehensive.  It will have the sort of Orks encountered in space.  Flyboyz, Ork starships, Space Hulk Orks, Mekboyz, and Gretchin engineers. CA has Eldar, RTX will have more pirates, Eldar Ships, discussion of craftworlds... In other words, the material covered will expand to be of interest to those playing that type of game.

I'd put money on it.

Which is exactly my point.  So to play an Orc in space, they'll either reprint all the stuff from Creatures Anathema (admittedly not alot) but still its money I'm spending for items I already have, or force you to already own Dark Heresy material in order to get the lesser orcs in Creatures Anathema

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Kage2020 said:

So, book bloat with everything scattered around?

Kage

Well kind of yeah.  You're going to get book bloat anyway as it stands now, with each line getting their own fluff books, so Dark Heresy gets their Creatures Anathema, Rogue Trader gets their Xenos books, and Deathwatch will invariably get their own books for example.

From a personal standpoint, if I'm going to buy books, I'd prefer the books to have new material for my 40-60 US dollars and not recycled material.  At least my money is going to pay for work that consists beyond cut and paste.

Heck FFG already gets subtle ribbing about recycling the same artwork in their books, imagine if they start recycling cutting and pasting the same material over and over through three different lines of books.

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Xathess Wolfe said:

 

 

Well kind of yeah.  You're going to get book bloat anyway as it stands now, with each line getting their own fluff books, so Dark Heresy gets their Creatures Anathema, Rogue Trader gets their Xenos books, and Deathwatch will invariably get their own books for example.

From a personal standpoint, if I'm going to buy books, I'd prefer the books to have new material for my 40-60 US dollars and not recycled material.  At least my money is going to pay for work that consists beyond cut and paste.

Heck FFG already gets subtle ribbing about recycling the same artwork in their books, imagine if they start recycling cutting and pasting the same material over and over through three different lines of books.

But we don´t know that, do we. It is just speculation. We don't know if there is going to be a special monster book supplement for RT yet and what it will contain. People at FFG are probably not total retards and know that if they start ripping their customers off people will not buy the books any more. Lets just wait at least until CA is out, see what's in it, and then we can start discussing what might appear in a upcoming supplement.

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Sure, take the voice of reason.

At the same time, what is this forum for but to drum up speculative interest in Rogue Trader?  Even if one were not to be cynical, about the only other thing that it can do is give FFG a general "sense" of what the potential players might want to see.  In short, free kibitzing. gui%C3%B1o.gif

Kage

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Peacekeeper_b said:

Im not a big fan of the "I hopes" and "what ifs". Id rather not know the games were coming out until a month or so before their release.

Blessed is the mind too small for doubt.  gui%C3%B1o.gifgran_risa.gif

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Luddite said:

Peacekeeper_b said:

 

Im not a big fan of the "I hopes" and "what ifs". Id rather not know the games were coming out until a month or so before their release.

 

 

Blessed is the mind too small for doubt.  gui%C3%B1o.gifgran_risa.gif

Just dont like waiting.

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I am also in the "One Rule Book to Rule Them All" mentality.  Got that from playing Savage Worlds.  I like having a basic core rules book then have settings books.  That way you have most of the crunchy bits all in one place and only the specific "genre" books for each of the settings.  So you'd have a Warhammer 40K RPG Rules book, then a Dark Heresy setting book, Rogue Trader setting book, and Death Watch setting book.  Feel free to add compendiums to each setting, I'm all for that, but this way I don't have to look through twenty books to find some basic rules information.

The problem is that it would require totally reworking everything because even in DH alone, there is information scattered through three books already.  It's the same reason I don't play the TT game - I enjoy the game, but my money is going to run out before I can buy everything I need to play the game.  Sorry, but I have a kid getting ready to start college this fall.  Between that and these economic times, I simply can't afford to chunk down $300 this year for all the pieces that will be coming out.

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The problem with a 'one book to rule them all' approach for 40K is almost exactly the same as the problems faced by White Wolf in writing scion.
The difference in power level and type of story told between an inquisitorial henchman and a space wolf champion are so markedly different that creating a system that functions for both is nearly impossible, much as the difference between a hero and a god in scion.


The task of making a system that functions for the lowest henchmen and the mightiest of the imperiums heros is made harder still by the use of a percentile system.


Add to this that a 'One book' would need to include, comprehensive vehicle rules, space flight , zero and vaccum operations rules, warp navigation, capital ship combat, aerial and space dog fight rules, psychic and sorcerery rules for all levels of power and an armory containing everything from shivs to titan weaponry. In short, you would end up with a book the thickness of dark heresy, without a setting.


If someone went for that approach, we almost certainly would not have it in our hands now, and it would likely be a considerably worse product. It makes considerably more sense to focus on specific areas of interest, and produce a system, which reflects the spirit of that style of setting.
 

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zombieneighbours said:

 

The problem with a 'one book to rule them all' approach for 40K is almost exactly the same as the problems faced by White Wolf in writing scion.
The difference in power level and type of story told between an inquisitorial henchman and a space wolf champion are so markedly different that creating a system that functions for both is nearly impossible, much as the difference between a hero and a god in scion.


The task of making a system that functions for the lowest henchmen and the mightiest of the imperiums heros is made harder still by the use of a percentile system.


Add to this that a 'One book' would need to include, comprehensive vehicle rules, space flight , zero and vaccum operations rules, warp navigation, capital ship combat, aerial and space dog fight rules, psychic and sorcerery rules for all levels of power and an armory containing everything from shivs to titan weaponry. In short, you would end up with a book the thickness of dark heresy, without a setting.


If someone went for that approach, we almost certainly would not have it in our hands now, and it would likely be a considerably worse product. It makes considerably more sense to focus on specific areas of interest, and produce a system, which reflects the spirit of that style of setting.
 

 

 

Not necessarily.  I don't need space flight and capital ship combat in a Dark Heresy campaign.  That would fall under specific rules for Rogue Trader.  What I need is a list of skills that all settings have in common - character generation; individual combat; common skills; common talents; common weapons; common body replacements; Insanity; Corruption; how to and when to use skill checks; basic background on the 40K universe; etc.  It could actually be a smaller book.  Then you have settings book focus on Dark Heresy, Rogue Trader, Death Watch focus - give the background of that specific setting; professions, skills, talents, traits common to the setting; specific character generation differences; powers like psionics and sorcery; etc.

In my opinion, Scion screwed things up the way they did it.  The jump in power levels between the books was just odd.  It caused problems in our group because some people wanted to move up the next power level as soon as they could so saved up all their points to do that while others were buying useful skills, etc. before moving up.  They should have made it a smooth scale instead of one that jumps in power level so drastically.  It was rough for good characters who didn't save up their points who were still at the hero level to be effective when others were already at the demi-god level and so much more effective because they got that huge bump up in characteristics and skills.  It made for an unbalanced game at the meet points between the three books.  We eventually abandoned the game because of these flaws.  That and having to roll unreasonable numbers of d10 as you go up in power.

Actually, I think in some ways percentile systems do pretty well with henchmen because you have a much wider range of skill levels to use.  You can give the common person low skills, henchmen higher skills, competitent people higher skills, and scale all the way up to a mighty hero of the Imperium having skill levls in the 80+ range in things they are extremely competitent in.  Granted, that is where I see that DH falls down though because Acolytes that should be at least somewhat compitent even at introductory levels, aren't.  Once they get a few thousand experience under their belts, they start to be at the level I think they should be at in the beginning.

Oh well.  No game system is perfect.  But as long as I enjoy the setting and the rules don't get into they way too much, then I'll play it.  And while I see problems with the DH rules, they usually don't get in the way except at the early levels and so as long as the GM handles the new acolytes with kit gloves, they can survive long enough to become competitent enough to make the game enjoyable and get emmersed in the system.

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Agreed. In a core system rulebook you would need to cover enough basics for players to be able to play any style of 40K they want with only that book.

You would need to cover at least the following: Character Generation, Xenos PCs/Abhuman PCs/Space Marine PCs, Mutations, Combat, Skills, basic careers (see below), interaction/investigation/influence, talents, equipment, basic vehicle/spaceship rules, sample encounter stats, starting adventure (shorter then Illumination).

You would also need a section on "the 40K universe overview", how to GM, how to play, setting and playing guidelines.

As far as careers go, you would need to cover the basics: Combat Monster, Skill Master, Power User, Free Jack.

Overall this would be an ideal 250 page book that comes out after Deathwatch and builds upon all 3 games.

Then you can have mini-settings come out afterwards. The Imperial Guard Wars, Gangs of the Underhive, Xenos and so forth. Each at about 150 pages. 

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If you need something to have everything in common you'd have to make up a lot of your own rules and stats and stuff. I imediatly think of GURPS, but then you aren't using most of the Dark Heresy book are you? And you would be doing conversions for what you did use.

I hope that they find a way to make character conversions and accessability posible between the titles, but dont think that limiting rogue traders to starting out with the same stats as an acolyte would be unfair. And a space marines? Even putting them on the same scale is mildly insulting (although I do wish there were rules for that and higher end PCs, for example with level 1 space marine initiates starting at the 8000 xp level and with many stat modifications manditory (such as +20 to strength?))

But that also brings monetary inconsistancy. Take for example a rogue trader... owns a ship? does every PC own a ship? maybe not... but likely that one of them will... convert him to Dark Heresy, and even a starting RT could metagame by peddling his ship for even a 1/10 of it's value and buy the best of everything. Possibly making high end equipment such as space marine armor (and terminator armor!) use XP to earn from the chapter would help, but not negate, the monetary aspects.

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I don think they need another system. Dark Heresy works fine as it is.

Im just saying a complete "rule book" pulling from Dark Hereys, Rogue Trader and Deathwatch would be useful after Deathwatch is released, so in like 2 years.

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Xathess Wolfe said:

Jephkay said:

 

Oh, when that Xenos book for Rogue Trader (RTX) comes out, it will be far more reaching and comprehensive.  It will have the sort of Orks encountered in space.  Flyboyz, Ork starships, Space Hulk Orks, Mekboyz, and Gretchin engineers. CA has Eldar, RTX will have more pirates, Eldar Ships, discussion of craftworlds... In other words, the material covered will expand to be of interest to those playing that type of game.

I'd put money on it.

 

 

Which is exactly my point.  So to play an Orc in space, they'll either reprint all the stuff from Creatures Anathema (admittedly not alot) but still its money I'm spending for items I already have, or force you to already own Dark Heresy material in order to get the lesser orcs in Creatures Anathema

While I see your point, there is also a lot NOT in Creatures Anathema because it focuses on the Caulix sector.  It's entirely possible that RT will focuse on another part of the galaxy and the "monster manual" will contain creatures that are common in that part of the galaxy; like the Tau (possibly.)

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RedMike said:

Ahem... I have realised that another thread provides you all the answers you were probably looking for!

Which thread?

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Im pretty sure Dark Heresy, Rogue Trader, Death Watch will all be in or around the Calixis Sector, as Ross has said before that that is the corner of the universe that GW lets them play in. So maybe out into the Halo Stars and Ghoul Stars and into nearby sectors, like the Ixaniad or Scarus Sectors.

But with Andy Hoare onboard as one of the team, we may see Tau as they were integral in both his Rogue Trader Novels!

Kroot would be nice.

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I just hope that in Rogue Trader that you get more options for starting characters, more openings and leway so you can actually build the character you want.

At rank 1 in Dark Heresy you really dont always get to play who yo want. Sure, by rank 3 you have diversified enough to be your own unique guy, but at rank one, they all seem pretty much the same.

When I first found out there was a 40K RPG I was like "cool, chainsword here I come" but I have to wait till a higher rank to get the skill? It is such a common weapon that it sould be easily available at lower levels.

Course, i guess I could parlay for a elite advance with my starting 400XP.

That is one fix LOL.

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Peacekeeper_b said:

Im pretty sure Dark Heresy, Rogue Trader, Death Watch will all be in or around the Calixis Sector, as Ross has said before that that is the corner of the universe that GW lets them play in. So maybe out into the Halo Stars and Ghoul Stars and into nearby sectors, like the Ixaniad or Scarus Sectors.

But with Andy Hoare onboard as one of the team, we may see Tau as they were integral in both his Rogue Trader Novels!

Kroot would be nice.

Working in reverse:

- So would stats for a pulse rifle or information on tech the other castes use.

- Not familiar with him, I don't read much out of the Black Library and so far nothing that wasn't about the Imperial Guard.

- It pleases me to know that GW maintains the same tightfisted control over their universe that they subject Relic to in Dawn of War.  Now if only they subjected their own publishing firm to those same rules....

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As a guard person you will probably be familiar with Andy Hoare's work even if you don't realise it - he's one of the main authors of the current Imperial Guard codex, as well as Tactica Imperialis and qute a lot of Guard related stuff.

I'd really like ot see the involvement of the Tau in Rogue Trader.  It's a shame the Calixis Sector is so far away from the Eastern Eringe.

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Kage2020 said:

... and then there was a warp storm, and 'lo and behold the Tau were in the Calixis sector. gui%C3%B1o.gif

Kage

Hah!  Let's have the Tau testing a new warp drive and it transports them to the Calixis sector. gui%C3%B1o.gif

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