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dj2.0

Troll key & purse question

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Had a look through the topics but could not locate any that addressed this question: if these objectives are added to the staging area in quest stage 1 (1st Hobbit quest) before any trolls appear, does this mean they can never be claimed? That they are simply placed in the staging area unguarded and thus are never attached to a troll? Which means ultimately heroes cannot have Sacks removed by Bilbo (hence, at all)?

Maybe I am missing something but if not it seems overly harsh that you can practically lose the game at the turn of the first card.

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That was what I figured but the cards themselves do not give that indication and the the rulebook on objectives does not clarify. Thanks.

So the objective is discarded but a new encounter is not drawn in its place? (this is how we played).

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I thought you could attach them to the trolls out of play anyway as the cards do not specify 'in play'.  That's how I interpreted it anyway I've never questioned it :-s

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im sure someone sent a clarification request to caleb- ill try and find it

EDIT - here you are - from james at bgg


If there are no Troll enemies in play when Troll Purse or Troll Key are revealed, then they are placed in the discard pile.
Cheers,
Caleb

 

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bollywongaloid said:

Bugger, then I've been playing wrong and I've still not found the bloody teasure lol.  Thanks for your help rich happy.gif

no worries- me neither haha

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richsabre said:

bollywongaloid said:

 

Bugger, then I've been playing wrong and I've still not found the bloody teasure lol.  Thanks for your help rich happy.gif

 

 

no worries- me neither haha

 

It makes that location that returns cards from the discard pile to the encounter deck useful to leave on the table instead of exploring it.  I think that's what I like about the challenge of this quest, the various locations that you actully feel the need to leave out in play to use their game text.

 

Alternatively, if you are running a deck with dwarves, The End Comes ("After a Dwarf character leaves play, shuffle the encounter discard pile back into the encounter deck.") becomes an actual useable card for this encounter on site two.

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1. Any effects in general don't interact with cards that are not in play, unless it's explicitely stated. In this case, when there are no trolls in play, you can't attach the objectives and discard them.

2. Quest card 2B tells you to shuffle the discard pile back into the encounter deck. That way the objectives will always be available in the encounter deck when you meet up with the troll trio.

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leptokurt said:

 

1. Any effects in general don't interact with cards that are not in play, unless it's explicitely stated. In this case, when there are no trolls in play, you can't attach the objectives and discard them.

2. Quest card 2B tells you to shuffle the discard pile back into the encounter deck. That way the objectives will always be available in the encounter deck when you meet up with the troll trio.

 

 

Good catch on #2.  Forgot that bit…

Another possible solution is to use Denethor's ability to speed up the discarding of the encounter deck.  I have never used him in any deck so far, so perhaps I'll try and give him a little playing  time to see how effective he is for this quest…

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leptokurt said:

 

2. Quest card 2B tells you to shuffle the discard pile back into the encounter deck. That way the objectives will always be available in the encounter deck when you meet up with the troll trio.

 

 

That's why we figured they are discarded, after a frustrating debate about whether to attach them to an out of play troll (obviously wrong) or leave them in the staging area (obviously crippling to us but the closest thing to the printed rules we have).

Many thanks for the official clarification and all the help offered. Still no official word on whether the discarded card counts as a card draw? (we figured yes).

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dj2.0 said:

leptokurt said:

 

2. Quest card 2B tells you to shuffle the discard pile back into the encounter deck. That way the objectives will always be available in the encounter deck when you meet up with the troll trio.

 

 

That's why we figured they are discarded, after a frustrating debate about whether to attach them to an out of play troll (obviously wrong) or leave them in the staging area (obviously crippling to us but the closest thing to the printed rules we have).

Many thanks for the official clarification and all the help offered. Still no official word on whether the discarded card counts as a card draw? (we figured yes).

 

Not sure if that is what you means, but of you draw an objective card during quest stage 1B, it will be discarded with no effects. Only if it had the guarded or surge keywords you would have to draw another card. So basically you want to draw these objectives in stage 1B, simply because they don't harm you.

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I am referring to the following situation:

Quest stage 1A, or 1B: Objective is drawn and discarded. It is a 2 player game. How many cards are now drawn from the encounter deck - 1, or 2?

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 I believe that you have to draw 1 more card ffrom the encounter deck.

 

It's the same situation than if you drew a treachery and cancel its effect.

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CJMatos said:

 I believe that you have to draw 1 more card ffrom the encounter deck.

 

It's the same situation than if you drew a treachery and cancel its effect.

What leads you to that conclusion?

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richsabre said:

bollywongaloid said:

 

Bugger, then I've been playing wrong and I've still not found the bloody teasure lol.  Thanks for your help rich happy.gif

 

 

no worries- me neither haha

I was beginning to think it was just me and my apalling luck! lengua.gif 

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So, for the record:

If at stage 1 you happen to reveal troll purse, it's effect won't resolve. But why would you have to reveal an extra card? I can't find that in the rulebook.

Still a pretty f'n hard encounter imo. If you're unlucky and draw specific cards during setup, you might get doomed 4. :P

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Hi Guys,

I played this quest last night with some success. However we had a situation that we were not 100% clear on and are hoping someone might have an answer…..

We had two of the trolls engaged with us (Tom and Bert if I remember correctly). The troll Tom had the shadow card dealt to him revealed as the Troll Key.

The troll key has the card effect: "If Troll Key is discarded, resolve its "When Revealed" effect if able. When Revealed: Attach to a Troll enemy. Response: After attached Troll enemy takes damage as the result of an attack, the first player may exhaust Bilbo Baggins to claim this objective and attach it to him."

Obviously we ignore the "When revealed" effect as it was dealt as a shadow card. The confusion came over the response part…. As "Shadow cards remain on the enemy to which they were dealt throughout the combat phase. If that enemy leaves play, discard its shadow card from play. At the end of the combat phase, discard all shadow cards that were dealt this round." (page 20 core rules).

In the combat phase Legolas attacked and damaged the troll Tom (but not killed, so he stayed in play). And as the troll key states "After attached Troll enemy takes damage as the result of an attack, the first player may exhaust Bilbo Baggins to claim this objective and attach it to him." And as the troll key is still in play because you only discard shadow effects at the end of the combat phase, can we exhaust Bilbo to claim the objective even though it was dealt as a shadow effect?

Many Thanks,

Lee

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Chaos101 said:

The troll key has the card effect: "If Troll Key is discarded, resolve its "When Revealed" effect if able. When Revealed: Attach to a Troll enemy. Response: After attached Troll enemy takes damage as the result of an attack, the first player may exhaust Bilbo Baggins to claim this objective and attach it to him."

 

You also ignore card effects if it is dealt as a shadow card.
So you may not trigger it's response, because only "shadow" part of the card is in effect, nothing else.

 

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Thanks Ellareth.

But playing Devil's advocate, if the troll key is discarded the "when revealed" effect occurs….

So after it is discarded as a shadow card, can we not then initiate the "when revealed" effect and attach it to a troll?

Whether or not there is a shadow effect on the card, it is still being discarded. The core rules do say "discard" when mentioning shadow cards at the end of combat. Hence the troll ley is being discarded.

As I say, I'm playing Devil's advocate, but you can see how this can be interpreted either way.

Lee

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Just found this in the FAQ:

Q: What happens to Banks of the Anduin (CORE 113) if it is drawn as a Shadow card?

 

A: It will be discarded from play at the end of the combat phase, like other Shadow cards. When a card is drawn as a Shadow card, only its Shadow text is considered to be active.
 
So looks as though we should not have attached it back to the troll so we could grab it next round. 
 
Oh well we forgot to clear the Troll Cave anyway. At least we know for next time. 
 
Cheers
 
Paul
 

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I don't know how you guys beat this one.  I was very excited about the Hobbit quests, but I couldn't ever get past the first quest, so I didn't go on to the next two for sake of the story.  But now that Caleb said that the player cards were all designed and then sorted, I'm hoping that the cards in On the Doorstep (NEXT WEEK!!!) will help my chances. 

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peacott said:

Just found this in the FAQ:

Q: What happens to Banks of the Anduin (CORE 113) if it is drawn as a Shadow card?

 

A: It will be discarded from play at the end of the combat phase, like other Shadow cards. When a card is drawn as a Shadow card, only its Shadow text is considered to be active.
 
So looks as though we should not have attached it back to the troll so we could grab it next round. 
 
Oh well we forgot to clear the Troll Cave anyway. At least we know for next time. 
 
Cheers
 
Paul
 

 

Just to add, you still get to attach Key or Purse to troll if it is in staging area when you discard it from the encounter deck as effect of quest card.

Shadow cards are just 'weird' in a way it ignores all other text except for shadow effects,
and shadow effects are ignored in all other situations except if it is dealt as shadow card (or other card effect specifically refers to it)

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Ellareth said:

Just to add, you still get to attach Key or Purse to troll if it is in staging area when you discard it from the encounter deck as effect of quest card.

This runs counter to the way most people say they've played this scenario.  It sounds like you are putting the Purse/Key in the staging area if they are revealed during 1B, then attaching them to the Trolls when they come out in 2B.  I think most others on this forums simply discard the Purse/Key if they are revealed during 1B.

I don't know if there is an official ruling supporting either play.  Thoughts?

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GrandSpleen said:

Ellareth said:

 

Just to add, you still get to attach Key or Purse to troll if it is in staging area when you discard it from the encounter deck as effect of quest card.

 

 

This runs counter to the way most people say they've played this scenario.  It sounds like you are putting the Purse/Key in the staging area if they are revealed during 1B, then attaching them to the Trolls when they come out in 2B.  I think most others on this forums simply discard the Purse/Key if they are revealed during 1B.

I don't know if there is an official ruling supporting either play.  Thoughts?

 

Sorry for being unclear,

in stage 1B, if troll key or purse is revealed you discard it.

What I meant is if you discard troll key or purse in stage 2B as effect of quest card you get to attach it to the troll. (by quest card I meant 2B, not 1B)

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