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Hesse2

Super-powered DH

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The initial read on the new description of the game suggests that RT is a much higher level of game - which was what I always expected when I won my copy of the original through the WD comp back in 86/87.

So do people anticipate running characters as far as they can in DH and then 'promoting' them into RT - i.e. is RT going to provide the career exits for uber-DH characters?

 

 

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Hesse said:

The initial read on the new description of the game suggests that RT is a much higher level of game - which was what I always expected when I won my copy of the original through the WD comp back in 86/87.

So do people anticipate running characters as far as they can in DH and then 'promoting' them into RT - i.e. is RT going to provide the career exits for uber-DH characters?

  

Actually Acention takes DH characters to this next higher level, so you don't need to graduate them to Rogue Trader.  Ross has also already said that the Dark Heresy line will be continued to be supported for a while after Rogue Traders Release.

My group has talked about this, quite extensively, and its mostly based on the premise of Rogue Trader and where it takes place as well as the promotions that occur in Ascention, as well as our survivability through the Haarlock series.  We have every intention of completing the Legecy of Haarlock series in Dark Heresy as Dark Heresy.

We then are thinking about playing both games seperatly as Rogue Trader and Dark Heresy until our Dark Heresy characters can be ascended.  After that we may play one game again with cross-overs, or continue to play two games with limited crossovers.

But since I'm moving to Yuma, Arizona here in a few months, this is becoming more and more of a discussion of what to play online, and that's based on how playable Rogue Trader is online.

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Xathess Wolfe said:

But since I'm moving to Yuma, Arizona here in a few months, this is becoming more and more of a discussion of what to play online, and that's based on how playable Rogue Trader is online.

I don't think that you're going to have any problem with running a game online, regardless of that game.  (I know that there is going to be an exception to that, so I amend it to suggest "any problem with running a game online, at least a game that I have encountered..." gui%C3%B1o.gif )

What I would really love to see is someone working up a specific interface for something like Fantasy Grounds II.  Hmmn... I might look into that myself!

Kage

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Well, it is nice to see them have a go at characters who are actually cool instead of the terrible meme from WFRP where if you arn't playing stanley the one legged retard you must be a munchkin (dead and unlamented with BI?).

Bodes well for Deathwatch, whose characters might actually approch the superhero levels I like.

I remain unconvinced that anything based on the WFRP system will ever create what feels like competent characters though - the basic mechanic means your wizard enginseer (or whatever) is going to fail as many rolls as he passes, leading to everyone looking silly wether you want them to or not.

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Dezmond, I fail to see why you even post to these forums.  You are already well aware you're not getting what you want here, and you're fairly certain you're not going to get what you want in the future either.  Is your disappointment so great that you expect us to weep for your sorrows beside you?  Or do you really play and enjoy these games, and are just being dour because you think it may get you something you want?

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Dude, its not just me. The threads on RPG.net talk about how the system has a lot of whiff and works best for barrel scraping.

If, as is implied, they want to do cooler characters who are supposed to command respect its gonna need some work.

I'd be more sympathetic if I hadn't called those problems even before seeing DH, but hey.

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Ok, so, Ascension may take them to the higher level. But presumably, RT is an alternative route. So the question, re-phrased would be; "would you graduate characters from Dh to Ascension or RT? I guess it's a critical for FFG to know too, since the fluff gen is actually minimal, but the rules make the Core book. S are both needed?

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My main concern is mostly with backwards character-compatibility. In other words, if I want to play a lower-powered version of a RT character, is such a thing even possible? This question, I realize, will not be answerable until we get more from the creators, but this is my outstanding question.

Dezmond said:

Dude, its not just me. The threads on RPG.net talk about how the system has a lot of whiff and works best for barrel scraping.

If, as is implied, they want to do cooler characters who are supposed to command respect its gonna need some work.

I'd be more sympathetic if I hadn't called those problems even before seeing DH, but hey.

You wouldn't be sympathetic anyway, and I still fail to see why you post in these forums.  If you agree with the people on RPG.net, why not post there?

At any rate, there's a great deal of discussion about the power level already, and certainly in a combat situation the characters match up pretty well with their equivalents (experienced Guardsman are roughly approximate to experienced Imperial Guard in 40K, Psykers can do what Imperial Psykers can do, etc.).  In terms of noncombat abilities, the characters are fairly capable.  I've also learned that RPG.net is the place to decry all games, at times going so far as to do so through outright fabrication - it's largely a troll forum.  But hey.

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Concidering that many (but certainly not all) posters on RPG.net are rpg snobs who regularly remind me of the same people that vote for movies for the Oscars, forgive me if I don't hold their opinions in high regard.  But since you brought it up, you fail to mention that every time the "wiff" factor is brought up on rpg.net, its quickly shouted down as being exaggerated.  If you're going to bring up an arguement, you may want to include the entire conversations that occur, and not just selectively farm facts that boost your arguement.

Now that said, Dark Heresy is what you make of it, and is more in line with gum shoe style game, and not an over-the-top gonzo style play many players enjoy.  Funny how so many people beat on Dark Heresy for not being over-the-top Gonzo and yet readily accept such classic games as Call of Cthuhlu where the issues are much much worse.

The thing is, 40k rpg is classic RPG design.  They purposely designed it so that as they built upon the games, adding games and books, they had an excuse for power creep and the new cool toy.  One of the things Palladium is always being bashed on is power creep, and yet 40k roleplaying took that concept and wove it into its game design, making you get to pick a game that fits your play style of gaming level and also allows them to make the next cool class without unbalancing the game.

You, and many powergamers, may want to play over the top, kill them all Space Marines, but many other gamers want to play a low level power game more inline with Call of Cthulhu and Adventure.  GW and now FFG are working to ensure that all players of 40k rp get to play at the powerlevel they want to, and not just catering to a small, vocal minority of over the top gonzo powergamers.

Sorry if Dark Heresy doesn't fit your gameing style, its to be expected, but just because YOU don't like it, and a small vocal minority doesn't like it, doesn't mean that the other huge majority of people who actually are playing it and making it a huge success don't like it as is.

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Hesse said:

Ok, so, Ascension may take them to the higher level. But presumably, RT is an alternative route. So the question, re-phrased would be; "would you graduate characters from Dh to Ascension or RT? I guess it's a critical for FFG to know too, since the fluff gen is actually minimal, but the rules make the Core book. S are both needed?

Ross has said that both games are compatible and that yes you can graduate Dark Heresy players to Rogue Trader (presumable through Ascention).

Will our Dark Heresy Characters go to Ascension, **** straight they will.  Will we get some Rogue Trader style characters in our Ascention Dark Heresy, yes we will and vice versa, will we combine our two games into one, probably not, we'll keep them seperate.

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 Dezmond- it's not the game that makes the character, it's the player. If you want a character to command respect, you gotta play him that way.

 

Also, question. Why can't RT just be a supplement to DH? Why the two different titles? I mean, they're basically the same thing, aren't they? No huge differences or anything?

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You wont need to graduate to RT. I doubt starting characters in RT are euivalent to 15K XP characters in DH. To make RT that powerful is just stupid and goes to a RIFTS/3E RPG like mentality.

The "Tier" difference will be indepedent freedoms, equipment, possession of a star ship and availability of skills, not "Hey you get 15K XP to spend."

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I don't know how they can really superpower it though. At the moment in DH with a maximum roll you can get a stat to 60. That's close to a space marine's strength without the implants. So I don't know that we'll start seeing people being able to get +30 or +40 to stats because it will throw off the internal balance (do you know how much someone with SB7 and TB7 is supposed to be able to carry in DH?).

 

It will most likely increase the amount of XP you can get - I  believe on last count there was approximately 45,000XP worth of advances in each DH career, of which DH only allows 15,000. So in that, you can't max out your stats and collect leet skills. With Ascension/RT the XP cap will probably increase allowing the number of advances available to increase, without giving you +40 to your stats.

 

Someone with maxed stats and all their available skills and talents would be a monster without adding anything else.

 

hellebore

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I agree here.  Too much superpowering loses the element of danger that the 40K system thrives on.  1st ed WFRP I remember always had this problem with overpowered Daemon Slayer characters that could just backhand slap their way through a horde of opponents.  This to me is not really meaningful role-play, and certainly not in keeping with the spirit of the 40K universe, which like CoC is dark and uncompromising.  There always ought to be the power of imminent death to keep the characters in check - caution is the watchword, even to fanatical devotees of the Imperial cult.

Anyone looking for characters with more power than sense and finesse need look elsewhere for their kicks. 

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Maybe, as well as the extra xp to spend on the skills you couldn't get with your standard 15k XP, they increase the Stat cap by 10, and a further 10 at Deathwatch? Plus, there are new skills in RT so thats more stuff to spend your hard earned XP on.

Still, at the end of the day all it boils down to is speculation until FFG decide to bless us with a peek at what's to come....   and that ain't gonna be any time soon :(

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By the way, Dez, if you want super god-like Marines, just convert the setting over to White Wolf: Scion rules! Then you can have your Marine split mountains and absorb nuclear attacks to your hearts content! :D

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Space Monkey said:

Maybe, as well as the extra xp to spend on the skills you couldn't get with your standard 15k XP, they increase the Stat cap by 10, and a further 10 at Deathwatch? Plus, there are new skills in RT so thats more stuff to spend your hard earned XP on.

Still, at the end of the day all it boils down to is speculation until FFG decide to bless us with a peek at what's to come....   and that ain't gonna be any time soon :(

 

I don't think the rules can handle having normal humans with stats that go much passed what they are now, that was my point. If you increase it by 10 in RT you can end up with humans almost as resistant as marines and who can carry comparable weights.

 

But like I said there is around 45,000 XP worth of advancements for each career in DH. If you took a balanced spread of talents, skills, and stats, you'd only get 5,000 XP to spend on stats. You can almost max that out on a single stat depending on its XP progression. So, simply increasing the amount of XP available to purchase advancements allows for more character development and skill without having to up the stats past areas they weren't meant to go. A human with TB7 will on average suffer 1 wound from a lasgun and maximum 6 from a shot discounting RF. Give them flak and they are virtually immune to lasfire. Hence why I don't think it will happen that way.

 

Hellebore

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Kage2020 said:

So it seems that flexibility is more of an issue rather than power-scaling of the Dark Heresy system?

Kage

I don't know if flexibility is the word  for it, because the system with its elite advances is pretty flexible... but more there is a limit on how flexible you can be.

Simply put, the hard cap on advancement strikes people the wrong way, especially when they have this really cool character concept, and then as they progress they find themselves having to pick and choose skills and limit their characters not because of simple choices, but because they suddenly find themselves up against a hardcap and having to determine if said skill or said attribute pick is going to stop them from developing their character the way they want to.

And that's even before you start talking about combat monsters and over the top gonzo characters.  Its very hard to expand your character in fun, non-combat ways because you have to choose to fight against a hardcap and being useful in the story.  Want your character to be an excellent singer or dancer... well that there depending on your class can be minimal 300 exp just to get singing +20 assuming that your class even offers that chance.  Get a class that for some reason states that your character never sings, and it becomes an elite advance, and assuming your GM is being generous and charging only 150 exp for the skills, its now 450 exp.  That's also assuming you're lucky and all the skills are normally 100 exp.  Most of them the initial pick is 200 exp then 100 exp for the follow ups, making it 400 exp for a singing +20.  And that's SINGING, which arguable comes into play very minimally in an actual game.

But if you want to flesh out your character you have to take it, but that's 450 exp you're taking away from something else that can be more useful in your average game, aka talents.  This wouldn't be so bad with an open ended system, but with a hardcap system it can become frustrated.

Even more so if you want to play a God-type character where your character has every combat talent in the book, has elite combat attributes, AND can make a killer cherry mouse, all while reciting the Imperial Creed... from memory.

Make matters worse is that the Inquisitor's Handbook has the beginnings of power-creep raise its ugly head with the new alternate paths.  These paths can be a liability because often then restrict you from taking skills from your original pick without paying +50exp per skill, and that can be a HUGE investment of exp, again taking you owe so much closer to that hardcap with very little return.

So while the game can be very flexible with elite advances... that very same flexibility is its drawback since every elite advance takes away the ability to flesh out your character in meaningful ways, due to a very hard cap.

Which is why I'm looking forward to Ascention, to at least raise that stupid hardcap, and allow me to continue to DEVELOP my character along meaningful lines, and make him 3 dimensional instead of constantly fighting the fight between 2-dimensional usefulness and 3-dimensional living breathgin character.

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All of that doesn't require an increase in the STAT cap though surely? I think a stat cap increase would cause more harm than good across the game as a whole.

 

Although DH states that 15,000 XP is sort of the end of the game, you can still run your characters past that with no real problems.

 

I think that simply allowing more advances to be taken will provide growth without mucking around with core stats.

 

Hellebore

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Depends what the stats of said mook ganger is. If they are all WS/BS15 then quite a lot. You don't need WS70 warriors to do that.

 

Hellebore

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Hellebore said:

Depends what the stats of said mook ganger is.

 

Exactly. One of the reasons I quite like that Minion rules have found there way into DH's Creatures Anathema (by way of a another popular pen and paper rpg which shall remain nameless).

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