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Character Creation Feedback Thread

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Zar said:

500 credits is way too low for starting credits.  A character should be able to get equipment that fits their skills without having to gain extra obligation.  500 credits doesn't even buy a blaster rifle.

I think that if a character has a skill they should get an item associated with it.  A free medpac comes with Medicine.  A free tool kit comes with mechanics.  A free blaster pistol comes with Ranged (Light) .  Even if the game is designed so that players spend extra obligation to buy equipment that means a group of 4 will peg 100 if they each take on 10 obligation. 

 

I really think the 500 credits makes since.  You are fringers you are living on the Outer Rim.  Your character has to make a choice do I have a nice shiny blaster or do I eat.  On top of that Slugthrowers are decently cheap and do decent damage and like a previous poster put it you can snag yourself a blaster in your first fight.  By the time your second game session is over your charcters will probably be running around with arm loads of blaster rifles you relieved off of some Stormtroopers.  

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Donovan Morningfire said:

One thing regarding character creation that might be a good idea to add is to restrict starting characters to only the 1st and 2nd tiers of their talent trees.  This way, it reflects that your hero is capable, but he's more of a Luke Skywalker or Rick Hunter (fresh-faced and new to a life of adventure) than a Han Solo or Roy Fokker (seasoned pro).  It also encourages players to spend some of their starting XP on a characteristic score boost or two, as well as fleshing out their skill list.

Another notion, this one a fair more off-kilter, is that since so many folks seem to be spending at least half their starting XP (if not all of it) on raising their characteristics, cut everyone's starting XP allotment in half, and give everyone two free +1s to two different characteristics scores of their choice.  You could still buy up your characteristics with starting XP, but not it really is gonna cost you in terms of skills and especially talents, which is where the really cool toys are to be found in this game.

 

I really think we shouldn't screw with the way character creation is currently set up.  It really makes since now do I spend xp for Characteristics but if I do that I can't buy my higher tier talents.  The way it is currently is a really give and take a character who spends all his xp on Characteristic upgrades is going to be low in the Skills and Talents however a person who focuses on Talents is going to be low in the Characteristic and Skills area.

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The thing about starting cash is that it is something that gets very swiftly solved as soon as the game beings. So it ends up only being a minor set back and brings the after-creation purchasing mechanics to the forefront.

Besides, it starts the characters hungry for simple things that can otherwise be solved with strong cash flow. Suddenly a dangerous mission that pays only a small amount of money seems more interesting when you can hardly afford a blaster.

 

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ashimar2 said:

Zar said:

 

500 credits is way too low for starting credits.  A character should be able to get equipment that fits their skills without having to gain extra obligation.  500 credits doesn't even buy a blaster rifle.

I think that if a character has a skill they should get an item associated with it.  A free medpac comes with Medicine.  A free tool kit comes with mechanics.  A free blaster pistol comes with Ranged (Light) .  Even if the game is designed so that players spend extra obligation to buy equipment that means a group of 4 will peg 100 if they each take on 10 obligation. 

 

 

 

I really think the 500 credits makes since.  You are fringers you are living on the Outer Rim.  Your character has to make a choice do I have a nice shiny blaster or do I eat.  On top of that Slugthrowers are decently cheap and do decent damage and like a previous poster put it you can snag yourself a blaster in your first fight.  By the time your second game session is over your charcters will probably be running around with arm loads of blaster rifles you relieved off of some Stormtroopers.  

But the problem with that is it encourages the D&D mindset of "kill stuff and loot the bodies."  The only time we see the heroes do something like that in the movies was ANH, and that was mostly to use the stormtrooper armor as a disguise.  They kept the rifles mostly out of a sense of "we've got 'em, might as well use them," but that was about it.

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Donovan Morningfire said:

Myself and a few other GMs over on the d20 Radio Boards have been using a default value of 1000 credits for beginning character equipment.  This gives enough for a decent blaster as well as some other career-related equipment.  I would say that if your character (namely a bounty hunter) wants more gear than that, they are going to have to forgo the bonus XP and instead take the extra credits from increasing their Obligation, or suffer a +15 hit to their starting Obligation if they want both.  Granted, that last one only works if you've got four or less characters since you can't take extra Obligation at the start of the game greater than your starting value, and you only get to choose each option once.

I… kinda have to go with the 500 cred starting value.  [shrug]  For an "Edge of the Empire" game, specifically.  Because it means that the PC will almost certainly increase his obligation.  ;-)  And I think that's a central tenet of Edge.

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GM Chris said:

I… kinda have to go with the 500 cred starting value.  [shrug]  For an "Edge of the Empire" game, specifically.  Because it means that the PC will almost certainly increase his obligation.  ;-)  And I think that's a central tenet of Edge.

Perhaps, perhaps not.  With the heroes generally being responsible for taking care of their basic personal needs (food, supplies, starship upkeep), they're going to be strapped for cash even with an extra 500 credits to start with.  And should their ship need major repairs (which in turn requires substantial cost in parts and labor), there's a prime chance for increasing a party's total Obligation or an adventure hook, as it costs 500 credits per point of hull integrity that needs to be restored (and might increase based on their reputation and other factors.  And that's to say nothing of other incidental costs the heroes might incur along the way.  Bribes to get your contraband cargo past customs?  That can add up pretty quick.  Then you've got players who are going to want to get their hands on some of the higher-end weapon and armor upgrades.

So there's plenty of ways to keep your party scrambling for credits in this game, enough that offering them a 500 credit bone isn't going to horrifically break the game.

 

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I don't think 500 credit starting is really an issue, but neather would 1000 - it really depends on where the GM & Players want to start the game, after all, the difference between those is a patching up a few holes on your beloved starship and livelyhood.  Of all the starting points, this is the one where I think GMs should feel like they have the most flexability, something which might not be bad in a sidebar note.

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Donovan Morningfire said:

So there's plenty of ways to keep your party scrambling for credits in this game, enough that offering them a 500 credit bone isn't going to horrifically break the game.

See… I dont' care about an extra 500 creds "breaking the game" (which it won't, I agree with you).  My point is that it tacitly forces them to take on more obligation - JUST to make ends meet (and take care of their basic needs), which is very Firefly-esque/Han Solo-esque and really fits in the theme I think they're going for with Edge.

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GM Chris said:

Donovan Morningfire said:

 

So there's plenty of ways to keep your party scrambling for credits in this game, enough that offering them a 500 credit bone isn't going to horrifically break the game.

 

See… I dont' care about an extra 500 creds "breaking the game" (which it won't, I agree with you).  My point is that it tacitly forces them to take on more obligation - JUST to make ends meet (and take care of their basic needs), which is very Firefly-esque/Han Solo-esque and really fits in the theme I think they're going for with Edge.

Players are probably going to do that anyway, just to get some extra XP for " just one more talent" or "just one rank in a non-career skill."  Heck, most bounty hunters are probably going to load up on Obligation just to get some really nice armor and an assortment of toys.

But if the intent really was to force the PCs to take extra obligation just to get a few more credits as a default, then maybe they should have increased the starting values by five and doubled the starting credits, if it's assumed they're going to have to do it anyway.

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Donovan Morningfire said:

Players are probably going to do that anyway, just to get some extra XP for " just one more talent" or "just one rank in a non-career skill."  Heck, most bounty hunters are probably going to load up on Obligation just to get some really nice armor and an assortment of toys.

But if the intent really was to force the PCs to take extra obligation just to get a few more credits as a default, then maybe they should have increased the starting values by five and doubled the starting credits, if it's assumed they're going to have to do it anyway.

See… in my playtests… NO player increased obligation to get more XP.  They ALL did it to get more credits.  ;-)  It's a choice!  "We figure you're probably gonna do it… but are you gonna do it for more abilities?  Or more gear?"

And Quicksilver's point is valid.  In my last playtest, the party face/doctor ONLY did it so he could have a backpack full of stim-packs (..don't ask).  He still had a ton of credits left over. 

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Quicksilver said:

Except there are a large number of classes where they don't need more then 500 cred.  Like the Charasmatic Pilot I created for my last game needed only a blaster pistol, leather jacket and enough chance cubes to play Yatzze.

Unless you meant a light blaster pistol, that's more than 500 credits, as a standard blaster costs 500 credits by itself, and by the RAW you're not allowed to spend that d% you get in "pocket change" on additional goods.

I will grant you that for 500 credits, one could get a "standard gear package" like this:
- A light blaster pistol (400 credits)
- A comlink (25 credits)
- An extra reload (25 credits)
- Heavy clothing (50 credits)

And while that may be fantastic for quite a few characters, for others, like Technicians and Colonist/Doctors, it boils down to a choice of having a starting weapon or having the fundamental tools associated with your trade.  Or maybe Colonist/Politicos having a few extra credits to spread around thanks to a few extra "kickbacks" they got due to their position/influence.

 

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I fall firmly in the 500 credit camp.  It lends itself to interesting choices needing to be made during character creation.

Do I buy the tools I need or a weapon?

Is the added obligation worth it to get both?

Will Bob, who added 10 obligation to get plenty of extra credits, buy an extra pistol he'd be willing to lend me in exchange for the promise of treating his injuries?

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*shrugs*

Maybe it's just that I've never been a fan of the "scrounge for every single penny low-life scum" style of gaming, and generally prefer a more heroic feel, minor though it may be, to the games I play.

I'll stick with the house rule of using 1000 credits for starting characters and not shoehorn them into taking Obligation just to get some decent starting gear.  Maybe I'm just funny that way, but I strongly dislike shoehorning my players into doing certain things, and forcing them to take increased Obligation just to get gear that fits with their character concept just comes across as a petty thing to do.

I've said my piece and then some on the matter, and I think at this point we can simply agree to disagree and move on.  If you and your players are happy being forced to either start out dirt poor or take added Obligation, then more power to you.  I'll not waste any more of your time on what's aiming to become pointless bickering.

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Donovan Morningfire said:

 

 

while that may be fantastic for quite a few characters, for others, like Technicians and Colonist/Doctors, it boils down to a choice of having a starting weapon or having the fundamental tools associated with your trade.  Or maybe Colonist/Politicos having a few extra credits to spread around thanks to a few extra "kickbacks" they got due to their position/influence.

 

 

I think it's kinda the whole point.  they are supposed to be broke.  It isn't like every kid that is born in Compton gets a check at 18 for his starting tools. The doc could have easily spent his money on school, the tech could have the same thing.  When I graduated aeronautic college they didn't hand me a full tool box to "prep" me for my first job.  To use a bounty hunter reference… we are not starting out as Boba Fett, or Cade Bane at the height of their careers. It isn't like every doctor that does a stint in a remote region of Africa is handed everything he will need.  

This is background building… the money/stuff is available soon after starting the game…. within the first session or two. I mean how hard is it to reach down and pick up the blaster pistol, the guard just dropped (or wont be needing any longer?  Better yet, spend the destiny point and say "good thing I remembered my pistol". BAM, pistol…. out of thin air.

The point is to make the characters have choices of starting low or taking on more obligation to get smidgen more. Obligation being the driving force of the game. You're giving it away, which is fine and dandy, but you're "silver spoon" characters wouldn't be from the outter rim, more like a middle rim. gran_risa.gif

When i was in the military I traveled a lot, saw all parts of the world.  I have been to Thailand, the Philippines, and some rather remote areas of China. Places where you would be amazed what people would do for 1 U.S. dollar. Hell, the chick that does the donkey show in Tijuana doesn't get paid but 20 bucks on some nights.  She makes no wage, just tips, yet desperation drove her to do THAT.  When i think of the outter rims, these places come to mind.  

 Remember, if the characters start flashing around too much (or have too much that they can't conceal), they are going to get robbed in the neighborhoods they live in.  This is all on the GM (in this case, you), but you're doing the setting a disservice if you're taking the desperation out of it.

$hamrock

 

 

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Which returns me to, the starting credits are really about the feel the GM want's the beginning of the game to have, something I feel like FFG should address in a Sidebar, rather than just making a hard limit. As has been frequently pointed out, the actual equipment you have with you can be quickly changed during the first adventure, so starting credits primarily set tone, rather than substance, of the story.

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Quicksilver said:

Except there are a large number of classes where they don't need more then 500 cred.  Like the Charasmatic Pilot I created for my last game needed only a blaster pistol, leather jacket and enough chance cubes to play Yatzze.

I designed 8 PCs for my session the other night. For the combatants (a bounty hunter, a hired gun, etc) I had to max out on cash with extra obligation. With everyone else (a pilot, a doctor, etc) if I increased obligation it went towards XP. So there's an interesting dynamic there that works well, I think.

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Quicksilver said:

Which returns me to, the starting credits are really about the feel the GM want's the beginning of the game to have, something I feel like FFG should address in a Sidebar, rather than just making a hard limit. As has been frequently pointed out, the actual equipment you have with you can be quickly changed during the first adventure, so starting credits primarily set tone, rather than substance, of the story.

THIS.  +1.

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Regarding starting cash.  It is easier to go up than it is to go down on starting cash in the rules as written.  If, say, the starting credits were 2500 right out of the gate in the book…plenty of folks would be fine, and others would immediately have a fight on their hands with the players if they wanted to drop back to 2000, 1500…heavens forbid 500. Imagine the flood of "so my GM only let us have 500 credits because that's how it was in the beta ZOMG awful GMzorz!" threads.

I do think a well placed sidebar in the final book would be good here.  But the default of 500 will set us up to either shower the group with extra cash if we so choose, or stick to the system as written for a bit of a Oliver Twist experience at the outset (I got my slugthrower pistol, and some grubby sneakers guv!).

Peeps like me with just come up with some starting gear packages a character can choose and then have the 500 credits be Christopher Walken-around money…but that is neither here no there.

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 I had all 4 of my players increase there obligations for the extra credits one also took some extra xp. I am sure they could have just stuck with 500 bought a blaster each and immediatly flown to the nearest harmless moisture farm murdered the people living there stolen everything not nailed down and sold it, but they figured it made more sense to start with the basic tools of there trade, after all they are apparently successful enough to own a 110,000 credit ship they might as well have taken a loan out for a bit more to actually be able to repair and defend that ship.

heck in the demo adventuer the starting poor pcs may need to buy food and medicin for 350 credits and later they may end up being charged 300 more for landing fees so that puts cramps into there plans, they may get those reduced but thats all up to the dice.

and finally I just relized my pc's cant spend any of the xp they get because there obligation threashold is 100+ right at the start, on the upside these poor, unknown smugglers are legendary in underworld circles with there reputation preceeding them.

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Librarian said:

and finally I just relized my pc's cant spend any of the xp they get because there obligation threashold is 100+ right at the start, on the upside these poor, unknown smugglers are legendary in underworld circles with there reputation preceeding them.

Upping their obligation to not be poor probably comes with some increased reputation and people that have some markers on them.  Also, ratcheting up Obligation to 100+ at the start just to prove that "my players can't have nice things"…aplauso.gif

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I'd also consider letting my players reduce their ships starting hull point/damage for extra starting cash, representative of them having different priorities for their paycheck to paycheck spacer struggles. Maybe they skimped on a repair bill or bought a slightly 'more used' starship…

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Quicksilver said:

I'd also consider letting my players reduce their ships starting hull point/damage for extra starting cash, representative of them having different priorities for their paycheck to paycheck spacer struggles. Maybe they skimped on a repair bill or bought a slightly 'more used' starship…

That's a great idea!

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I just do not agree that a player should have to take on extra obligation to buy what I would think should be starting equipment for their character.   If someone's Charismatic Pilot wanted to go without having a blaster pistol in the outer rim then that's fine.  They will either be very good at talking their way out of the Sand People ambush or their corpse will have alot of credits on it.  Either way I gave my players what I thought they should have for starting equipment and they got to use the 500 credits for buying Krayt drugs. 

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Zar said:

what I would think 

gui%C3%B1o.gif  See.  That's the kicker.  What you would think is not what I or other GMs might think.  Other GM's might think that the 500 cred starting equipment is just fine.  Others won't. 

The game can't cater to everyone… so what to do?

That's why I like the idea of starting it low.  Because the FFG police won't come to your house and take your dice away if you give your players 1000 creds to start with.  gran_risa.gif  Nor will your players mind.

But your players will more likely take issue with a GM saying, "Y'know… 1000 creds is too much… so I'm going to reduce it…"  "WHAT?? BUT IT SAYS in the book RIGHT HERE that we start with 1000!!!!"

No player's going to whine that you're UPPING the starting limit, however. 

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