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Hygric

Overloading a good quality las-gun

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Other posters had previously pointed out that good quality on a las-gun was useless.

Now with the new varriable setting rules, is there a point to it?  Would a las-gun on overload (gain unreliable) of good quality (loose unreliable) have less chance to jam?  It will still be a penalty as the las-gun is still five times as likely to jam, just not as harsh as 10 times as likely to jam.

Given that 3 of the sample regiments begin with a good quality M36, it would be nice if it actually did something for them.

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Because the qualities don't stack up, its still utterly worthless.

Your Lasgun is Reliable. Good Quality makes it Reliable, removing Reliable, and is thus worth absolutely nothing. Overload immediately causes Unreliable, whether the weapon was Reliable, normal or Unreliable to begin with. An Integrated Good Quality Lasgun on an Enhanced Potentia Coil firing in Overload would still be unreliable, and this drives me up the bloody wall.

Just use a Triplex in Incinerator-Mode instead.

Or, if you'd rather houserule a bit less 'suck', my group uses this scale of reliability: Reliable>Normal>Unreliable>Scavenged[as per the Black Crusade downgrade]. Good Quality improves your ranged weapon one step, Best by Two [we don't use the "never jams or overheats" rule. Sounds harsh, but I'm the plasma-user and I suggested it]. Acquiring a poor quality Unreliable weapon by any means other than "off the still-warm remnants of a target when in hostile territory with critical levels of remaining ammunition" is just  your own **** fault, then.

If already Reliable, you gain +1 damage instead to the gun. Best on an already-reliable weapon does in fact do nothing still, by virtue of a weapon so simple or well-crafted to begin with attaining effective perfection that much more easily. When you get "good" quality lasguns, you're really getting "BEST" quality lasguns; its just a common enough tech that there's just no excuse for poor ones.

So the "unreliable" overload setting just returns it to normal reliability, keeping the bonus damage, for that set of shots.

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It's not about qualities stacking.  On overload, the las-gun looses reliable and gains unreliable.  A good-quality weapon modifies unreliable to normal.  So, the weapons special qualities have changed based upon it's varriable setting, but it's craftsmanship (which is seperate to special qualities) still affects it.

The rules for good craftsmanship specify that no extra benefit applies to a reliable ranged weapon, but in the case of overload setting, it is an unreliable weapon.

All the above is of course just my take on the rules, not holy writ.  Plus I like that interpretation because it makes good quality las weapons actually usefull!

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Hygric said:

It's not about qualities stacking.  On overload, the las-gun looses reliable and gains unreliable.  A good-quality weapon modifies unreliable to normal.  So, the weapons special qualities have changed based upon it's varriable setting, but it's craftsmanship (which is seperate to special qualities) still affects it.

The rules for good craftsmanship specify that no extra benefit applies to a reliable ranged weapon, but in the case of overload setting, it is an unreliable weapon.

All the above is of course just my take on the rules, not holy writ.  Plus I like that interpretation because it makes good quality las weapons actually usefull!

Agreed.

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The OP seems to be assuming that a Good quality weapon can't be made unreliable. Its an interesting interpretation, but I don't think its correct.

GQ Longlas is just reliable. At the moment of using the Variable settings, it loses reliable, and becomes unreliable.

It does not first start off as generic Longlas, use variable settings to become unreliable, but then because it is good quality, gain the reliable trait again.

 

The main argument I see for what I'm saying is that its always GQ, but using the Variable Settings works on top of that.

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 I've no idea what everyone else is on about but if you overload a good quality lasgun it will explode, same as with lasguns of every quality.

Doing this might get you out of a pinch or be a decent booby trap but if your commissar finds out you are toast. 

 

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A good majority of games, whether miniatures, rpg or otherwise, function this way. Temporary effects or specific rules override the general ones.

As I'd said: Your gun is good quality, and reliable, but when fired in that mode, it specifically, temporarily, loses reliable to gain unreliable.

So you're spending quad ammo, losing Reliable and gaining Unreliable [there's just about no Las weapon with Variable that wasn't reliable to begin with] for +2 Damage and +2 Penetration.

Drop it to Triple, and "lose Reliable or gain Unreliable if it lacked the Reliable quality" for that damage and you'd have something, But as it is, you're usually better off banking on Righteous Fury to plink for 1 than this.

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Honestly at the end of the day this isn't a rules question. It's a question you and your GM and group need to answer. I've been house ruling reliable qualities since day one DH to make range weapons with the quality not be just silly.

Since DH came out I've just given any Good-crafted weapon that already has Reliable the Accurate quality. It's simple and easy. If it already has both those I just say it is Good-crafted to start with, like how Deathwatch weapons are already well above common, your weapon gets Good-crafted for free and you can take Best-crafred at a reduced cost.

And a note on how I handle Best-crafted range weapons is to give them +5 to BS and +1 Damage. which is closer to what Melee weapons get.

So my point is that if you and your group think a Good Las weapon fired at max setting should not become unreliable then do it. I plan to because it makes sense, and the rules are not clear cut on this but are open to some flexibility.

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I'd have to disagree. Its exactly a question of the rules [in particular of them not having changed since back when melee was a good deal weaker than Ranged unless a whole lot of Sb got involved], given so many are houseruling fixes to it.

The fact that so many of us feel the need to, and often with somewhat similar takes, if of varying levels of elaboration and complexity, shows that its generally viewed as a hole in the rules. That one *CAN* houserule does not in itself mean the rule is fine as it is. Rather, that so many feel it must be, indicates that there's something lacking in the rule.

An official fix would thus go a long way towards ensuring that everyone is on the same page when discussing balance or 'knowing' what's a good choice for their character or not even if they don't specifically know every way some new table they are joining swings for these decisions.

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Kiton said:

I'd have to disagree. Its exactly a question of the rules [in particular of them not having changed since back when melee was a good deal weaker than Ranged unless a whole lot of Sb got involved], given so many are houseruling fixes to it.

The fact that so many of us feel the need to, and often with somewhat similar takes, if of varying levels of elaboration and complexity, shows that its generally viewed as a hole in the rules. That one *CAN* houserule does not in itself mean the rule is fine as it is. Rather, that so many feel it must be, indicates that there's something lacking in the rule.

An official fix would thus go a long way towards ensuring that everyone is on the same page when discussing balance or 'knowing' what's a good choice for their character or not even if they don't specifically know every way some new table they are joining swings for these decisions.

I agree that a dev ruling and write up would be welcome. The rules are lacking and until they are fixed (which probably wont happen) this is not a rules question about the good craftsmanship las weapon vs. settings quality because the rules are not clear.

I was commenting on the OP's question. His/her question is not a craftsmanship rules question because the rules are unclear on the issue. The fact that there are posters saying that good does remove unreliable, and others say it does not proves that this is not about rules but about our ideas of the rules and so my adviec to the OP was to not worry because it is not clear, just sit with your group and pick one way or the other.

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