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Force Use…

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GoblynByte said:

 

Jedi Careers: Create a Jedi career and give it three specializations. Start by scratching the name off of a lot of the Marauder and Bodyguard talents and give Jedi-like titles to them (and change some of the ranged-based Bodyguard talents to Lightsaber-based) and rename these specializations Lightsaber Duelist and Jedi Protector. Then build a Consular specialization by altering one of the more socially oriented talent trees. Liberally modify all three specializations with talents from the Force Exile tree.

 

 

I'm already toying with something like this, only to fit the themes of both the book and the Rebellion Era, they won't be so much careers as specializations that can only be acquired after purchasing Force-Sensitive.

At this point, I really don't think there should be a Jedi career, as there's really not any reliable source for Jedi training in the Rebellion Era; what few classically-trained Jedi do remain are in hiding and not exactly out hunting for an apprentice.  So by the time they do find someone that's suitable for training, that person is in a similar boat to Luke; they've already had several years' worth of life experience to shape them.

As it stands, I'm not really going to do a whole Consular/Guardian/Sentinel breakdown as the era doesn't really lend itself to that kind of specialized training, not to mention there's already existing specializations that cover a lot of those aspects.  So I'll probably have the Exile talent tree and a Jedi Trainee talent tree (focused heavily on lightsaber usage), and that will do for a start.  Not sure how I'm going to handle putting a lightsaber in the hands of a PC just yet; I'm strongly inclined to make it either a 2nd or 3rd tier talent that the PC has now built their own lightsaber, and not one that's too easily reached given just how frakking powerful those things are in the Beta.

As for Powers, I'm leaving those alone, and might make Farseeing a 20 XP talent on the Jedi Trainee tree rather than a separate power.  Like Inksplat said, it seems pretty unreliable going by the movies, so I might make cost 2 LS Force Point to get a hazy piece of  information related to what you're trying to view through the Force.

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Inksplat said:

 Well, I was specifying Jedi for a reason--they don't use Force Lightning and such.

Eh, true. I'd break that down between a question of if they can't or if they just don't. I mean, there are some examples of light siders using it in the EU, albeit on their way to becoming evil. And you'd at least want to work out the mechanics of it for the sake of Jedi foes. Jedi specifically would be easy to emulate in EotE, but even a general sense of EotE being able to handle high powered Force users the answer would still be a qualified "yes."

And foresight abilities are more fluff than anything else. Important to the movies, but more a storytelling device than anything else.

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Donovan Morningfire said:

GoblynByte said:

 

Jedi Careers: Create a Jedi career and give it three specializations. Start by scratching the name off of a lot of the Marauder and Bodyguard talents and give Jedi-like titles to them (and change some of the ranged-based Bodyguard talents to Lightsaber-based) and rename these specializations Lightsaber Duelist and Jedi Protector. Then build a Consular specialization by altering one of the more socially oriented talent trees. Liberally modify all three specializations with talents from the Force Exile tree.

 

 

I'm already toying with something like this, only to fit the themes of both the book and the Rebellion Era, they won't be so much careers as specializations that can only be acquired after purchasing Force-Sensitive.

At this point, I really don't think there should be a Jedi career, as there's really not any reliable source for Jedi training in the Rebellion Era; what few classically-trained Jedi do remain are in hiding and not exactly out hunting for an apprentice.  So by the time they do find someone that's suitable for training, that person is in a similar boat to Luke; they've already had several years' worth of life experience to shape them.

As it stands, I'm not really going to do a whole Consular/Guardian/Sentinel breakdown as the era doesn't really lend itself to that kind of specialized training, not to mention there's already existing specializations that cover a lot of those aspects.  So I'll probably have the Exile talent tree and a Jedi Trainee talent tree (focused heavily on lightsaber usage), and that will do for a start.  Not sure how I'm going to handle putting a lightsaber in the hands of a PC just yet; I'm strongly inclined to make it either a 2nd or 3rd tier talent that the PC has now built their own lightsaber, and not one that's too easily reached given just how frakking powerful those things are in the Beta.

As for Powers, I'm leaving those alone, and might make Farseeing a 20 XP talent on the Jedi Trainee tree rather than a separate power.  Like Inksplat said, it seems pretty unreliable going by the movies, so I might make cost 2 LS Force Point to get a hazy piece of  information related to what you're trying to view through the Force.

None of my points regarding the ability to emulate Jedi in EotE are indicative of my opinion of whether or not they should be represented in EotE. I'm of the "Jedi are extinct" camp. But FFG's choice of era aside, folks are complaining about EotE system being incapable of pulling off Jedi characters. Which is, in fact, untrue.

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GoblynByte said:

 

Inksplat said:

 

 Well, I was specifying Jedi for a reason--they don't use Force Lightning and such.

 

 

Eh, true. I'd break that down between a question of if they can't or if they just don't. I mean, there are some examples of light siders using it in the EU, albeit on their way to becoming evil. And you'd at least want to work out the mechanics of it for the sake of Jedi foes. Jedi specifically would be easy to emulate in EotE, but even a general sense of EotE being able to handle high powered Force users the answer would still be a qualified "yes."

And foresight abilities are more fluff than anything else. Important to the movies, but more a storytelling device than anything else.

 

 

I'd say Force Lightning would be pretty easy, having it deal Wounds and Strain, upgrades would be wounds, strain, range, and number of targets.

Force Choke would just be Force Move, straight up with no changes except for it causing strangulation for as long as the Force User keeps it up.

 

The system definitely supports all of it.

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Inksplat said:

The system definitely supports all of it.

Then there won't be any difficulty producing the quickstart! :-)

--

Look, thing is, there is a difference between doing something and doing it well. It is the relationship between attack and defence, how many whacks it takes to kill someone, how abilities scale and whatnot. Slike how DnD has rules for high level play, but they tend not to work as well as the lower level stuff.

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AluminiumWolf said:

Inksplat said:

The system definitely supports all of it.

 

Then there won't be any difficulty producing the quickstart! :-)

--

Look, thing is, there is a difference between doing something and doing it well. It is the relationship between attack and defence, how many whacks it takes to kill someone, how abilities scale and whatnot. Slike how DnD has rules for high level play, but they tend not to work as well as the lower level stuff.

Wtf is the point of QuickStart rules when it's covered in e actual rules? Everything you need to make a Jedi is in the book, a QuickStart on how to make a Jedi has no purpose!

And it does it perfectly well. Jedi are stronger, that is just the way it is, so balance isn't an issue. Is a Jedi going to kill just about anyone if they let them get close? Absolutely. But the system is very lethal to to NPCs, and very forgiving to PCs. A Jedi vs Sith fight may very well be over in a single roll, but that roll will be large and represent a pretty cinematic fight. Or it might last a few rolls as there will be tons of defensive dice added to the pool and Destiny points spent.

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AluminiumWolf said:

Inksplat said:

The system definitely supports all of it.

 

Then there won't be any difficulty producing the quickstart! :-)

--

Look, thing is, there is a difference between doing something and doing it well. It is the relationship between attack and defence, how many whacks it takes to kill someone, how abilities scale and whatnot. Slike how DnD has rules for high level play, but they tend not to work as well as the lower level stuff.

You're not listening to anything anyone is telling you. It is a waste of time debating with you.

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Inksplat said:

A Jedi vs Sith fight may very well be over in a single roll, but that roll will be large and represent a pretty cinematic fight. Or it might last a few rolls as there will be tons of defensive dice added to the pool and Destiny points spent.

Well, it is questions like this that I'd like to see answered - can the system generate satisfying Jedi duels, or will they tend to come down to one roll? Especially with lots of power usage.

Cause really, I don't think people would be satisfied resolving the end of Revenge of the Sith in one roll.

I mean, a bit shorter sure. But not one roll!

:-)

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 So, if we were to take 2 generic Jedi.

Brawn 5

Lightsaber 5

Toughened x3

Resilience x2

Intense Focus (+Ability Upgrade)

Touch of Fate (+2 Boost)

Superior Reflexes (+1 Melee Defense)

Force Sense (+3 Ability Upgrades, +3 Difficulty Upgrades)

Armored Clothing (1 Defense/1 Soak)

Lightsaber - 10damage, Crit 1, Defensive 2, Deflection 1, Breach 1, Sunder, Vicious 2.

 

That results in this:

Soak Value of 8 (ignore because of Breach)

Wound Threshold: 18

Defense: 2

 

Which Results in this:

Offensive Roll: 7 Proficiency Dice, 2 Boost Dice

Defensive Roll: 1 Difficulty Die, 6 Challenge Dice, 6 Setback Dice

 

So.. yeah. It is very unlikely that there will be any 1-roll kills. In fact, its much more likely that you'll see a ton of Triumphs and Despairs, Advantage and Threat, resulting in amazingly awesome cinematic narration.

And if there is a hit landed, it won't knock the receiver out. It'll leave them with at least a few wounds left, though they'll have a Crit. Plus they'd each have a once per session re-roll to save them from a particularly bad round.

 

Does that satisfy you?

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Librarian said:

 so now that its been clarified that close combat rolls are not opposed rolls but against difficulty 2 how dose that change the Jedi duel math?

Reduces it by..4 Challenge dice, I believe. So:

Offensive Roll: 7 Proficiency Dice, 2 Boost Dice

Defensive Roll: 1 Difficulty Die, 2 Challenge Dice, 6 Setback Dice

Though, if doing 2 Difficulty flat, that'd bring in Jay's comments that a defender who is skilled and knows your style should add more setback. So, I'd argue you could add another 2 Setback to the roll.

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Sorry for the interruption but if I understand this right thats 20pts to cover Force sensitive and 10pts for basic access to all  3 Basic Force Powers for a total of 50pts.

Most species will have between 40 to 60xp left after that and can take a larger obligation with regards of needing to remain in hiding from the Empire for the extra 10xp.

Since only the Hired Gun and Bountyhunter career has access to the Melee skill you might want to spare 10 to 30xp to have that skill at 2 and then sacrifice the 10xp from your obligation bonus for your lightsaber under the expressed note that if its ever found any Imperial will shoot you on sight (because as far as they're concerned you ARE that scary to them) even if you don't have force powers and anybody who doesn't care or has a beef against you can sell you out to the Empire with pretty much the same effect except the Empire is perfectly willing to glass the entire planet to make sure you're dead and Jedi by the way would never willingly allow that unless you made the smart move of moving to another star system before the Empire arrived to deal with you…

So since the only canon a gamemaster needs to worry about in their own home game is their own, so your prospective Jedi character can spend 20xp to increase their starting Force Rating to 2 becoming a Padawan and then 30 more to 3 to become a young Jedi Knight which would be about 110xp if you didn't bother buying any extra skills save for a 1 rank in the non-career skill of Melee (10xp for rank 1) to wield your Lightsaber unless you chose the two careers that has that as a class skill, of course to be able to keep the lightsaber and all of this you would have to be human (this drops to 105xp if you chose Hired Gun or Bountyhunter as your career) or drop one force power for most of the other alien races (100xp) and two if you want to play a Trandoshan or Wookie Jedi (90xp).

Still you could just have those have a Force Rating of 2 and use the 30xp for the 3rd rating to actually have an extra upgrade, talent or skill… now what was dodge again?

My point is unless your game is tied to Fantasy Flight's overseen game there is nothing to stop you using what I've typed above to start off with a full Jedi character, its just that to achieve that you leave your character weaker in other areas and to get stronger after the game starts you'd need a legitimate reason to be able to whether its hunting down Holocrons or other Force artefacts to learn from or finding a tutor whether Jedi or Sith to fulfill the same requirement.

I actually prefer this Jedi-lite setting and have grown frustrated with nearly every game I got involved in devolving to needing a Jedi to go any further and I've heard of other games where they practially lap up being Sith the only exception that I don't take issue with is the actual play podcast I've been listening to produced by Gamertable which is in the Saga edition and Old Republic era if you're wondering.

The west end game campaign of star wars I'm still playing in had my character forced to become a Jedi because my character was the only one that chose to be force sensitive at no point did I want play a Jedi and the next time this particular dm tried to pull this on me in a different game system I adamantly refused as its not what i want to play! (It was a Gurps game converted over from d&d 2e)

I am stating that to show that whilst I really don't care for Jedi's turning up in numbers that vastly outnumber the clone army (and that did happen in a star wars d20 game run at dragonmeet run a few years ago as I was one of a VERY few who chose to play a clone trooper only to be outnumbered at least 2 to 1 after two other players who joined in ran clone troopers along with me!) I understand there is an interest in this so I'd like to ask you would what i mentioned above fulfill what you want in a Jedi character whether you're dming or playing in an Edge of the Empire game?

I'm asking because one of the players in the game I ran is running a force sensitive exile and I'm more at odds with how to explain how his force power works than worried he'll ask why he can't get a lightsaber or increase his force rating and to be frank I'd like to know what you'd do want instead (other than have class skills added with specialization skills for the force powers for an actually Temple raised Jedi)

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copperbell said:

 

Sorry for the interruption but if I understand this right thats 20pts to cover Force sensitive and 10pts for basic access to all  3 Basic Force Powers for a total of 50pts.

Most species will have between 40 to 60xp left after that and can take a larger obligation with regards of needing to remain in hiding from the Empire for the extra 10xp.

Since only the Hired Gun and Bountyhunter career has access to the Melee skill you might want to spare 10 to 30xp to have that skill at 2 and then sacrifice the 10xp from your obligation bonus for your lightsaber under the expressed note that if its ever found any Imperial will shoot you on sight (because as far as they're concerned you ARE that scary to them) even if you don't have force powers and anybody who doesn't care or has a beef against you can sell you out to the Empire with pretty much the same effect except the Empire is perfectly willing to glass the entire planet to make sure you're dead and Jedi by the way would never willingly allow that unless you made the smart move of moving to another star system before the Empire arrived to deal with you…

So since the only canon a gamemaster needs to worry about in their own home game is their own, so your prospective Jedi character can spend 20xp to increase their starting Force Rating to 2 becoming a Padawan and then 30 more to 3 to become a young Jedi Knight which would be about 110xp if you didn't bother buying any extra skills save for a 1 rank in the non-career skill of Melee (10xp for rank 1) to wield your Lightsaber unless you chose the two careers that has that as a class skill, of course to be able to keep the lightsaber and all of this you would have to be human (this drops to 105xp if you chose Hired Gun or Bountyhunter as your career) or drop one force power for most of the other alien races (100xp) and two if you want to play a Trandoshan or Wookie Jedi (90xp).

Still you could just have those have a Force Rating of 2 and use the 30xp for the 3rd rating to actually have an extra upgrade, talent or skill… now what was dodge again?

My point is unless your game is tied to Fantasy Flight's overseen game there is nothing to stop you using what I've typed above to start off with a full Jedi character, its just that to achieve that you leave your character weaker in other areas and to get stronger after the game starts you'd need a legitimate reason to be able to whether its hunting down Holocrons or other Force artefacts to learn from or finding a tutor whether Jedi or Sith to fulfill the same requirement.

Uh… *scratches head*

Actually unless you're heavily house ruling your game, there is something stopping you from doing what you said. It's the rules as written. 

Force Rating is not a characteristic and cannot be "bought up" at character creation through XP. So far, the only way to increase it is through the Force-Sensitive Exile talent tree and their Force Rating talent at the 25 XP level. 

Also, Lightsaber use is handled by the Lightsaber skill, and not melee. The book is very clear on that when you look at the melee weapons table. 

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Cyril said:

Uh… *scratches head*

Actually unless you're heavily house ruling your game, there is something stopping you from doing what you said. It's the rules as written. 

Force Rating is not a characteristic and cannot be "bought up" at character creation through XP. So far, the only way to increase it is through the Force-Sensitive Exile talent tree and their Force Rating talent at the 25 XP level. 

Also, Lightsaber use is handled by the Lightsaber skill, and not melee. The book is very clear on that when you look at the melee weapons table. 

Thanks missed that reference although the Melee skill on page 84 infers its the skill you could use, which always made me wonder even back under West End Games and its specialisation skills in that Lightsaber could have easily fallen under Melee as a speciality rather than a Jedi only skill.

Now I'm wondering what else I missed!happy.gif

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Initially posted this in the "Can't Find How to Increase Force Rating" thread, but they're probably better suited to this thread.

Now these aren't meant for anyone specifically, but I thought I'd post a couple examples of Force powers in use. Please do note that these examples take into account the changes made in Week 2 (how various Upgrades work) and Week 7 (the default of Move's basic power).

So for our first example, I'll start fairly simple with an Emperor's Hand (pg 202, has the Influence power with the first Control Upgrade, the Strength Upgrade, and one Range Upgrade) decides to "stress out" one of the PCs, who is currently at short range. The Hand spends their action that round to activate the Influence power, and needs to score at least 2 Force Points (1 for the Basic Power, 1 for the Range Upgrade). Strength Upgrade would be nice, but with a Force Rating of only 2 and using the Dark Side pips on his Force Dice, the Hand isn't likely to get that third Force Point he'd need to activate both the Range and Strength Upgrades. Since the basic power of Influence doesn't cite an opposed check, the Hand goes straight to rolling his Force Dice, and unfortunately for the PC targeted rolls like a pro, generating 3 Force Points (all Dark Side). So the Hand has gotten the minimum of 2 he needed, and has an extra Force Point which he uses to activate the Strength Upgrade, causing the PC to suffer 2 points of Strain Damage.

For a more complex example, we have a Forsaken Jedi (pg206, has the Move power and appears to also have 1 Range Upgrade, 1 Strength Upgrade, and 1 Magnitude Upgrade as well as the first Control Upgrade) wants to blast a pair of street toughs (pg199, not in a group) that are currently at short range, he'd roll 3 dice for his Force Rating, and needs to come up with 3 Light Side Force Points (1 for the basic power, 1 to activate the Strength Upgrade as the thugs are both Silhouette 1 objects, 1 to activate the Magnitude Upgrade to affect both troopers, and 0 for the Control Upgrade). Since the Control Upgrade to attack requires an opposed Discipline check, the Forsaken Jedi also rolls his Discipline (2 Ability dice for his Willpower, no ranks in Discipline) vs. the tough's Discipline (which adds 1 Difficulty die for their Willpower of 1 and no ranks in Discipline), for a total roll of 2 Ability dice and 1 Difficulty die. If the Forsaken Jedi succeeds on the Discipline check (pretty likely) and gets the 3 required Force Points, then his telekinetic goes off and both thugs take 10 damage plus any extra damage from any extra successes the Forsaken Jedi might achieve. Now, let's say that he succeeds on the Discipline check, but only rolls 2 Light Side Force Points. He can activate the basic power of Move, but he can't activate both the Strength and the Magnitude Upgrades (and decides not to take the Strain to use his "on the edge" special ability). Since the thugs are both Silhouette 1 objects, the Forsaken Jedi decides to just activate the Strength upgrade and hurls one of the two thugs aside, dealing 10 damage to the one mook while the other thug suffers no ill effects.

Now, had the Forsaken Jedi tried that same tactic on a pair of Stormtroopers (Willpower 3, Discipline listed as a Minion Group skill), he'd be a lot less likely to succeed, especially if the stormtroopers were acting as a minion group, as he'd be rolling his 2 Ability dice against 2 Difficulty Dice and 1 Challenge die.

For a third and final example, I'll use Valin, my teenage Force-Sensitive Scoundrel (has the Sense basic power and the Control Upgrade that lets him upgrade an opponent's difficulty once per round) finds himself in a smallish, poorly-lit room (suffering 2 Setback dice from Concealment), but wants to see if he's the only living thing in the room, using Sense's basic power to see if there's anything within several meters (Short Range). He only needs a single Light Side Force Point, which is good because he's only got a Force Rating of 1. He rolls, and lucks out with a single Light Side Force Point, so he's able to sense that there are two other people in the room, though he still has no idea who they are. However, thinking things are about to go bad (as they so often do), he spends his action the next round activating his Control Upgrade. As this is an Ongoing Effect, he doesn't have to roll his Force die or generate any Force Points, he simply sets the one required Force Die aside, but this also means that he can't use the basic power of Sense anymore because he doesn't have any Force Dice left (he only had 1 to start with, and that's been assigned to the Ongoing Effect). After several tense moments, the lights flicker on to reveal a pair of Trandoshan goons… good thing Valin is fast on the draw and a capable shot, because things just got ugly. However, the Trandoshan goons don't get the benefit of surprise as Valin's Sense power let him know they were there, so that's something at least. GM asks for a Vigilance check, and a smirk crosses Valin's face at the bounty of successes he's rolled; the Trandoshan's planned ambush is about to blow up in their snouts.

Hopefully there of some help in understanding how Force powers currently work in this game.

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copperbell said:

So the Influence Basic Power only does strain damage, would this be visible like force lightning or do they need to be in physical contact to use this power?

The basic power has a range of engaged, so it sounds like physical contact to me. Also, since its strain damage, I doubt it's a Force lightning-type effect.

-EF

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copperbell said:

So the Influence Basic Power only does strain damage, would this be visible like force lightning or do they need to be in physical contact to use this power?

Nope, there's not any obvious physical effects.

If you've seen Babylon 5, in the first season there's an episode where a telepath uses his ability to cause the villain of the week to double over in pain, simply by looking at him.  Lyta does the same trick in Season 4 when she, Garibaldi, and Doc Franklin are trying to sneak their way into the EarthGov detention center where Sheridan is being held.

The basic power though pretty much requires you to be face-to-face, not necessarily requiring physical contact, but close enough to whisper into someone's ear.  You'd need the Range Upgrades to affect someone from further away.

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Donovan Morningfire said:

copperbell said:

So the Influence Basic Power only does strain damage, would this be visible like force lightning or do they need to be in physical contact to use this power?

Nope, there's not any obvious physical effects.

If you've seen Babylon 5, in the first season there's an episode where a telepath uses his ability to cause the villain of the week to double over in pain, simply by looking at him.  Lyta does the same trick in Season 4 when she, Garibaldi, and Doc Franklin are trying to sneak their way into the EarthGov detention center where Sheridan is being held.

The basic power though pretty much requires you to be face-to-face, not necessarily requiring physical contact, but close enough to whisper into someone's ear.  You'd need the Range Upgrades to affect someone from further away.

So in addition to the Strain damage the target would get a setback die to any action they try to do following this attack?

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copperbell said:

So in addition to the Strain damage the target would get a setback die to any action they try to do following this attack?

Nope, it's just Strain damage.  Bear in mind that Influence isn't meant to be a heavy-duty attack power, so you're not going to be one-shotting any bad guys unless they've been extensively softened-up beforehand.

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