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ItsUncertainWho

Custom dice?

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I need custom dice why?

I'm apparently an incompetent GM who can't tell a story, so I get to toss all my real dice and use special dice that tell my story for me? Dice are a resolution mechanic, not a storytelling mechanic. 

Neither I nor any of my players are going to shell out cash for dice that are completely unusable for anything other than one game.

If the final game requires a set of utterly useless dice, as much as I hate to say it, it may be a no go from the beginning. 

This is a very sad, sad turn of events.

 

The more I think about how this system will function with custom dice, the worse and worse the outlook is becoming. 

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Sad to hear you say that. I had a similar attitude when I first started to play FFG's Warhammer Fantasy Role-Play, but after playing with the dice I really got into the flavor of what they offered to the game. Sure, the same effect can be generated with regular dice, but there was something wild about rolling "boons" along with my hammers to see how much damage I was doing in combat, or my success rate at "persuading" npcs to do what I ask. From what I understand, these are the same dice used for X-Wing, so one set per playgroup should work out fine. Hopefully the dice add to the game, and I have faith that they will, based on my experience with WHRP.

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HI!  I've been a lurker on these boards for a long time, very seldom do I post.  For whatever reason, your post has prompted me to say something…

While I believe you're entitled to your opinion, and it is very valid, I have to wonder if you ever stopped to think why the "custom dice" occur.  Why the cards, why the punch out health tokens, etc…

Undoubtedly, by your tone, this isn't your first dance with an RPG.  I am not going to presume how long you have been into the hobby, but I can tell you I have been in it for close to 30 years.  Like you, I was kinda put off by the "stupid dice", I don't like mixing my card games/dice games/ MMOs or any other games with my RPGs.  

Then I tried it out, with WHFRP, and I gotta say it is pretty dam cool, once you learn it.  The dice don't tell the story for you, they just tell you when events can transpire.  Rather then have the player roll stealth, and the gm roll notice as separate events, this system rolls them into one, rolled by the player.  It short cuts a mechanic.  Rather then have the GM counting rounds to tell him when the dragon's breath weapon is ready, the dice tell him on the attack roll.  (NOTE: the GM is under no obligation to use the breath weapon from that roll, and may opt to use it the next round or whenever, but it is easier to use it when it's available.)  It is still up to the GM to tell the story.   Having the cards, stat out my skills/talents/etc… right there next to me, it saves me a ton of time having to look them up, it also saves some money because the entire group can play with one book (as players don't need to look something up)… It isn't "new", D&D did this years ago with the mage/priest cards.  I want to say that was 2ed edition, but don't quote me on it.

Anyway, I digress from the point, the "why"…  You may, or may not, be aware of this but remember when 4th edition D&D came out a few years ago?  Remember the stressing of street dates?  Did you know that a month before it came out, it was available, word for word, from  torrets. How many sales did Hasbro miss out on because people just downloaded their own copies and never paid for a thing?  Perhaps it's the very reason why so many smaller companies go belly up.  Same with most RPGs these days.  I could get the entire Pazio collection, free, the entire 40K line, etc… (Not that I would ever use, or support, such activities, but most people these days don't support the same outlook as I do).  Look what it has done for the music industry.  I won't be shocked if this beta book was available, free, before Gen Con ended.   That said, you know what I can't download?  The "stupid dice" I need to play the game.  

This is almost sheer genius, to be honest.  They made a mechanic, adapted it to rpgs, and made it so a person had to at least purchase one of the products to be able to enjoy the ones they didn't pay for.  After I realized this, and took into account all the problems the industry is currently having, (RPGs are not on too many people's x-mas lists these days), I kinda support it!

Anyway, that's my .02,  Again I totally see your point as well, heck I shared it up until a few months ago,

 

Rob

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Personally, my problem with Custom dice is not an issue of being complicated, it's an issue of what happens when the game is out of print? Up until very recently FUDGE dice were very very difficult to find.

I think custom Dice, unless the main game will come with a set, is also a huge barrier of entry to new gamers.

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Tensen01 said:

However, now seeing this: dicemonkey.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/A0hjLFcCMAAxDCd.jpg-large.jpeg I am less and less looking forward to this.

Some people have a hard enough time with d20, I can't begin to imagine trying to explain this system to new gamers.

So 14 custom dice…. That's even worse.

The WHFRP3 dice set is 12 dice for $12. So we could be looking at 14 dice for $14. That is something none of my players will be willing to shell out for. As for sharing around the table, that will slow things down and in general just cause trouble.

These are far from being the same dice used in the X-Wing miniature game.

 

@$hamrock - I have been playing RPG's almost 30 years myself. I do not want anything but pencil, paper, and dice to play. Counters, cards, and other boardgame artifacts are not something I need or want, they should be left in board games. Cards can be useful as an optional aid, not a required piece of kit. Required additional purchases are never a good idea, nor are they consumer friendly. 

I am generally a supporter of FFG, but in this case I will probably have to disappoint my players greatly by telling them, we will not be playing the new Star Wars RPG. I had run a 5 year long campaign with the D20 (3.X) Star Wars and had gotten excited about starting up a new game(in a better system). I guess that won't be happening unless I adapt another system for my own needs.

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That pic from dicemonkey.net just solidified my disappointment with this game. If the game requires that you keep up with your stats using tokens and the like it will only get worse.

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So looking at the pic. there is a grand total of 8 symbols that a person needs to know, to be able to play.  That is WHFRP!  Bet the symbols, while graphically different, mean the same things.  14 dice, but it looks like they are repeats of the same dice.  The extra dice are probably to represent damage from light sabers and heavy weapons, being higher damage ratios then anything in WH.  

If I may take another counter point to some of the arguments on here, many of which I held.

Dice:  I have dice, I don't want/need more.  I agree, fully, however I ask  how many sets of dice (and errant dice) do you own?  All anyone "needs" for about any game is one set and a few extra die 6. Now, I can only speak for myself, and the people I have played with in the past (maybe 50 or so, not counting conventions), but I have around 16 sets of dice, almost everyone I have ever played with has many sets of dice.   In fact the only time I have ever seen anyone with one set of dice is when they are completely new to the hobby.   I had this same argument, it kinda muted itself.

 

Dice cost:  12-14 bucks, guessing the second.  As a point of reference I am going to use groups I play with that play 2 other popular games.  Pathfinder, and D&D.  In pathfinder I play with 6 other people.  With the exception of myself, they each have a copy of the "advanced players guide", the main book, the martial book/spell caster book, the race guide, the second PHB thing, and computer programs on the IPods for each, and we all have a sets of dice.  Just a rough guess, I would say the buy in was north of 100, each player. Not that they had to buy any of it, but they all did. D&D is much the same picture, many of the players have several books that advance the players abilities, options, talents, races, etc… again I would guess each paid somewhere north of 100.   Now the WHFRP campaign I have recently gotten into.  There are 4 players and the GM.  The main game came with 3 sets of dice, two of the players bought sets (at 12 bucks, each).  That's it!  There are no copies of game guides, there are not manuals of x-powers, etc… it is all the players have.  We do, however chip in on books/box sets for the GM. 

Cards/progression:  they just make it easier, and non-munchkin-able.  The player classes are insanely balanced.  While I love WEG amd even the 3.75 version by WotC, I will be the first to say that the balance of classes is almost nonexistent, sure there is a white buffalo in them, here and there, but it is the exception, not the norm. I have yet to find a FFG RPG that has those issues.  Heck, the made space marine, and rogue trader a completely different products to avoid that (and undoubtedly to make money). I would almost be willing to guess that is what they are doing here, moving the soldiers and jedi, who would completely outclass the rogues, away from them. 

Don't want to use cards: One is under no obligation to "use" the cards, they can write the info on the character sheet, old school, if they wish, its really the same as reading and copying from the book, except you take it off the card, instead.  Instead of turning the card to show you "used that skill" this round, you would just have to keep track of it manually.  (Again note: I have no clue if this thing even needs cards, I hope it does because of how easy they, the cards, made everything but I have seen no indication that it does).

In my head, at least, this looks to be the SW game I have been waiting for.  A setting without a ton of Jedi, player characters that are not "munchkined" to death (really good at shooting, but couldn't read, jump, fly, swim, etc… to save their live), all with a contribution to the group (not just holding the torch for the mage/fighter), with an unquestionable evil, and a reason to, rebel against it.  All the while having mechanics that the GM doesn't have to fudge the results of, and the players can't fudge.   That's just me though, I tend to like the greater challenges in my games.  

Hopefully they found that middle ground for stormtroopers, not impossible to take out, but at least partially representing how they managed to conquer the 2/3rds of the known galaxy… WotC never achieved that with the minion rules, it was like one player character to 12 troopers, when one to 2 or 3 would be more reasonable.  

Anyway, I hope some of you doubters give the demo a shot, at least one at the local hobby store. I will be running one here in San Antonio, and anyone interested are welcome to send me a message and I will get the where/when to you.  In the case that you're all right, well then I'm puttered out of 42.00 for the beta.  Anyway, I will write a review of it when I get my teeth into it, and let ya'll know.

 

 

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Tensen01 said:

However, now seeing this: dicemonkey.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/A0hjLFcCMAAxDCd.jpg-large.jpeg I am less and less looking forward to this.

Some people have a hard enough time with d20, I can't begin to imagine trying to explain this system to new gamers.

I have to say I'm quite disappointed. The announcement of this game came out of nowhere for me but some of my players have been bugging me for quite some time for a Star Wars game. So understandably I was pleasently supprised when I saw the news but having to use such a variety of specialty dice that can only be used for a single game is a deal breaker for me. Weird, game specific symbols are very unintuitive as compared to numbers (high = good, low = bad) and I really hope that at some point in the future someone can come up with some sort of replacement system for this that uses more traditional dice. Or this might just turn out like WFRPG 3e with lots of tokens and other stuff that I'm not really interested in.
I'm still interested in everything this game has to offer besides dice mechanics though.

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This argument is almost a carbon copy of the argument that came out with WFRP3e.  Here are my comments on that:

1.  Warhammer 2e was a decent system loved by many.  This change fractured the community.

2.  WFRP3e dice mechanic scared me, then intrigued me, then grabbed me.  It works surprising well especially for roleplaying.

3.  I don't like the cards, chits, tokens aspect that the WFRP came with.  I know people argue that you don't have to use it and I agree that you dont but I still dont care for having to purchase it.  They did eventually fix this issue partially by releasing the hard bound books but that move created its own wave of issues.

OK, so with that in mind, here are my hopes.

1.  Stick to the books and if they really want to offer cards, use the PoD system or other standalone supplement to do so.  Don't package that stuff with things I need to play the game.  That they are releasing books seems to indicate at least part of this is happening.

2.  I don't mind the dice mechanic.  I would be a nice bonus if they included a regular dice variant but I guess I don't really care that I would be buying additional dice.  I have lots of dice, whats 14 more?

3.  The three setting thing bothers me.  This is a style that has been used for 40k.  And it does seem to work but I absolutely hate the idea of buying the core rulebook mutlple times.  The real rub here is that it does seem to be a profitable way to market these things.  It allows the "new player" market to occur frequently, still supports the past players, 95% of the material is usable in each of the "settings".  This is likely something they will continue to take advantage of.

4.  Give me a **** digital character sheet right away.  I love paper, don't get me wrong, but I like to keep the "master" copy of each of my characters' sheets in digital format, it would be nice if this wasn't something I had to find in the community. 

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As I mentioned elsewhere, the main rules apparently come with a table showing what numbers on a standard dice correlate with what symbol, so you can use standard dice without ever using the special ones - you don't need to buy special dice to play the game.

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 I have a solution. Pick your favourite RPG system and convert Star Wars to it. For the rest there is Star Wars Saga or for us old schoolers there is our Star Wars D6. :P 

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CanadianPittbull said:

 I have a solution. Pick your favourite RPG system and convert Star Wars to it. For the rest there is Star Wars Saga or for us old schoolers there is our Star Wars D6. :P 

 

That sounds like work…..  gui%C3%B1o.gif

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MILLANDSON said:

As I mentioned elsewhere, the main rules apparently come with a table showing what numbers on a standard dice correlate with what symbol, so you can use standard dice without ever using the special ones - you don't need to buy special dice to play the game.

Because that is quick and convenient.

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Thank the maker FFG didn't try and foist another d100 system on the world.  I think the funky dice are much easier to learn than knee-jerk hate may lead people to believe (WFRP rocks as previously noted).  Also, it's a new game system for the SAME intellectual property that has been recycled and reprinted five times already in two and a half other systems.  Don't want to learn a new one?  Guess what?  The rebellion era is the same as it was in 1988 when we were playing WEG d6 (except the source books were better written back then gran_risa.gif).  Nothing wrong with sticking with an older game system to play star wars.

 

 

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ItsUncertainWho said:

MILLANDSON said:

 

As I mentioned elsewhere, the main rules apparently come with a table showing what numbers on a standard dice correlate with what symbol, so you can use standard dice without ever using the special ones - you don't need to buy special dice to play the game.

 

 

Because that is quick and convenient.

If learning to interpret what dice rolls mean in a new game (which, if it's a new system, you have to do anyway) is that big of a deal, then I don't know what to say. I did it with WHFRP 3ed (because I bought the game in PDF form initially), and normal dice worked fine for that, and after a little while, it was easy to interpret the results of a roll.

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I applaud Fantasy Flight Games for breaking away from the conventional RPG structure and trying something new. I have been turned off by RPGs ever since the D20 system came out and made all gaming generic. The fact of the matter is, if you are a Star Wars fan you will play on any system. I made due with D20 for over 10 years. I wasnt happy about it but endured because I love the Star Wars universe and wanted to run games for my fellow fans.

If you are purchasing the beta you dont need to buy dice, the game comes with stickers to use for now. That means i'll have to sacrifice a couple of the many dice sets I own….oh no, I think i'll survive. I can't wait to purchase the official dice set. I'll probably get 2. As a gamer you can never have too many dice. As others have said, there is a conversion chart so you can use your own dice without purchasing anything.

I think people should give it a try before completely dismissing something new. I can't wait to get my hands on this game and form my own EDUCATED opinion based on experience and not speculation.

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 I liked WHFRP 3, and I always thought it would go well for Star Wars. While I understand that many do not like that choice, I personally am happy with it and can't wait for my copy of the book to arrive.

I might even buy new dices specifically to put the stickers on, instead of using dices I already own.

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ItsUncertainWho said:

I need custom dice why?

I'm apparently an incompetent GM who can't tell a story, so I get to toss all my real dice and use special dice that tell my story for me? Dice are a resolution mechanic, not a storytelling mechanic. 

Neither I nor any of my players are going to shell out cash for dice that are completely unusable for anything other than one game.

If the final game requires a set of utterly useless dice, as much as I hate to say it, it may be a no go from the beginning. 

This is a very sad, sad turn of events.

 

The more I think about how this system will function with custom dice, the worse and worse the outlook is becoming. 

 

smells_like_bullshit.jpg

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haters gonna hate. 

 

I on the other hand ordered the beta.  I figured I may as well show my support, those that dont like it can not buy it.  Easy enough.

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For the past couple of years I've been running WFRP events at various conventions in California and I've got to say teaching new players how to use and interpret the custom dice is a breeze; in fact the only people who seemed to have difficulty with it were obvious grognards clinging to "old school" gaming paradigms and fearing change of any sort. 

As far as tokens, cards etc. Something I noticed immediately was increased player (and GM) attention to what's going on. Players tend to become engaged even when it isn't their turn and the tokens make assessing important data quicker and easier than looking at things on a character sheet or flipping through a book. As a GM I love being able to quickly know where the players are health wise by just glancing at their wound cards (right out in front of me), freeing up even more time to be engaged in storytelling rather than looking at charts and tables.  

Another side benefit I've discovered is having players (and the GM) rolling dice out in front of everyone. The entire table tends to get involved in "reading of the dice" and a more collaborative storytelling narrative emerges. Additionally (and this may seem counter-intuitive) players pay more attention to the game! I can't count the number of times I've seen players with their noses buried in character sheets, rule books, lap tops, tablets, and god-forbid, cell phones while playing "traditional" RPG's. But having all the necessary data laid out in front of you and easily accessible with a quick glance (by everyone at the table) really speeds up the game and creates a more actively engaging experience. 

I'll close with this; since it's release I've had the great pleasure of running WFRP for more than 50 different players (including a 6 month campaign for my home group of four), and I can honestly said that every one of those players were impressed and enjoyed the experience. Several of those players were even old guy skeptics grumbling about turning roleplaying into MMO's and boardgames; but each of them left the table a believer and quite a few purchased the game before leaving the convention. 

 

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 Everytime I see people complain about custom dice I think… wow, its like telling somebody who has only played Monopoly or Clue about a new game that uses different sizes and they complain about 'Why not just use d6s?'  Blows my mindthat we are gamers who use our imaginations to create worlds and have fun and here comes a game with a different paradigm of game design and resolution and because of it using different dice you will write it off as stupid… without even giving it a try…! all I can say in the end is ….. Wow!

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 There's a chart in the book for using regular dice. So they can be used. Also, there's a sheet of stickers in the back so you can turn some dice you already have into the custom ones.

Looking back, I never once blinked at the idea of buying new dice back when I first started role-playing. No one had dice like that laying around their house, so you had to buy them. Now we're seeing the same thing but what was once "strange-looking dice" are now the norm if you play RPGs. 

For what it's worth, my players are in the "New dice, hell no!" camp. That's why I purchased a set of dice for each of them prior to starting WH3e. Same reason I bought sets of Zocchi dice for Dungeon Crawl Classics. I'm still as enthused about role-playing as I was when it was first introduced to me in the '80's. If I have to buy extra dice for my friends to share that fun, so be it. Not an answer for everyone, but it works for me.

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Well, as opposed to some who was boasting in this thread, I have not played RPGs for close on 30 years. I'm not sure its relevant.

Custom dice is new to me, or, not really, Shatterzone had it, although it was really just a normal D10 but with 10, rather 0. Had some funky conversion chart on each character sheet too, as the rolled value generated the actual value, or some such thing. Never played it much, but then I was young, my grasp of the english language not good and my friends not too keen of playing an "unknown" sci fi game with boring black-and-white art, even though it was the game guys who made the Star Wars rpg back then.

I'm not overly fond of the notion of having a set of dice only usable for one game, but then, now that gaming time is scarce (work, non-gaming friends and cohabitor… the doom of growing up) and my library of games is taking up most of my living room walls, I think why the heck not? I have more D6 dice than I care to count, never used all of them. I have such a huge bag of dice I could probably kill someone with it, twice. Why not have some special dice useless for any other game? It shows dedication and desire to play a specific type of game in a specific setting, that someone has gone to quite a length to create for me, for us, perhaps not personally me - I doubt they knew I existed prior to this post (if they even notice this post) - but for a community, for a gang of miscreants desiring something new and original, yet familiar and Star Wars.

To me this whole ordeal of naysaying the game is pointless and sad really. Its a set of dice, plastic polyhedral objects… how much meaning and significance can you put into such a thing? You don't even have to buy new ones, just sacrifice some of the ones you already have and put the stickers on them, download the app… or memorise a conversion table, how hard can it be? If this is such a big issue, that it stops you from playing a game, it makes me perplexed… I know its not convenient to have to get new dice or memorise a table, but few learning experiences are… and most games have way too complex mechanics for the simple things they try to do. Any game must be learned, I suspect these dice makes the game more interesting to learn. Its a different way of looking at outcomes. It does not control the game, that is what the group of players and the GM does. The dice are only a helpful tool when needed.

 

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