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Peacekeeper_b

Seriously?

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klaymen_sk said:

Venthrac said:

 

Except that piracy is actually a serious and widespread issue that harms both the large and small RPG publisher alike, just as it harms home movie sales and video game sales.

Slipping in the tub, not so much.

 

 

 

There are pirates who pirate because the don't want to pay. Those most likely will not become paying customers. Also there is the "blowing it out of proportion" scaremongering by the companies, when the reallity may be different:

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2010/04/us-government-finally-admits-most-piracy-estimates-are-bogus/

Publishers are really good at pulling out numbers out of their arses. 98% of statistics are made up on the spot, including this one. Now, I am not saying that the piracy does not exist, just that as a threat it may be much lower and the sheer greed of the companies may be the fuel for such made up statistics crying about piracy. As I've mentioned earlier in this thread, a mere scapegoat.

___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Then there are pirates who do it because their money is tight. If you want them to become customers, you have to do something.

Which approach is better for you if you have problems with money?

 

This one? (Black Crusade for $60 per physical book, $30 per PDF)

http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_minisite_sec.asp?eidm=154&esem=2

 

Or this one? (Pathfinder $50 physical book, $10 PDF)

http://paizo.com/products/btpy88yj?Pathfinder-Roleplaying-Game-Core-Rulebook

 

Ignore the $10 difference between those two books. Mind you, that I'm not directly comparing two different RPGs, but two pricing policies. Setting high price for PDF and crying that it does not sell well is stupid. Even Steam (digital PC games distributor) has learned that deals like 50% or 75% off generate more income, because the profit from few sold units for high prices is outweighted by the profit from a lot of sold units for lower prices.

But clueless company is clueless.

Take from that what you want.

 

Go complain to Lucas. The fact that the pdf is not able to be obtained is due to him. Complaining more and more here will not better your cause. FFG is not to blame. I dont know how many times this has to be said.

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Doc, the Weasel said:

I don't think the issue with the license is piracy (though ianal, so grain of salt and all). I believe the issue is that pdfs fall under a different license that covers electronic products (that is the consensus on why The One Ring pulled its pdfs, at least).

It's a bit out of touch with the present, but many of these things were developed decades ago, let alone not in the last 5ish years when ebooks and pdfs have taken off. 

 

You are right, and for the umpteenth time and anyone who hasn't read this whole thread.

 

FFG DOES NOT HAVE the rights to make a PDF.  Lucasarts treats PDF copies of games as the same thing as any Electronic, AKA, Computer game.  Hence the license is covered by computer game licenses, which are far beyond the ability of a Tabletop company to acquire.  After all, if WOTC, owned by Hasbro, couldn't afford it, do you think FFG could either?  Plus it might not even be available because other companies have the Electronic rights.

 

So yeah, start a petition to Lucas Arts, complain to them, write actual letters and mail them (This is important, email will be mostly ignored, actual letters tend to get read).  It probably won't matter, but it's worth a try.

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Dulahan said:

Doc, the Weasel said:

 

I don't think the issue with the license is piracy (though ianal, so grain of salt and all). I believe the issue is that pdfs fall under a different license that covers electronic products (that is the consensus on why The One Ring pulled its pdfs, at least).

It's a bit out of touch with the present, but many of these things were developed decades ago, let alone not in the last 5ish years when ebooks and pdfs have taken off. 

 

 

 

You are right, and for the umpteenth time and anyone who hasn't read this whole thread.

 

FFG DOES NOT HAVE the rights to make a PDF.  Lucasarts treats PDF copies of games as the same thing as any Electronic, AKA, Computer game.  Hence the license is covered by computer game licenses, which are far beyond the ability of a Tabletop company to acquire.  After all, if WOTC, owned by Hasbro, couldn't afford it, do you think FFG could either?  Plus it might not even be available because other companies have the Electronic rights.

 

So yeah, start a petition to Lucas Arts, complain to them, write actual letters and mail them (This is important, email will be mostly ignored, actual letters tend to get read).  It probably won't matter, but it's worth a try.

 

Thank you! :)

Hopefully they can read what you wrote lol cause im sure as hell tired of hearing it and tired of explaining it.

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Dulahan said:

 

So yeah, start a petition to Lucas Arts, complain to them, write actual letters and mail them (This is important, email will be mostly ignored, actual letters tend to get read).  It probably won't matter, but it's worth a try.

 

 

The issue there is company (Bioware perhaps) having that electronic license. If it's exclusive, then it's not just a matter of Lucas Arts just recrafting the language on the RPG license (and why would they add more for the same price). They also have to negotiate with the other company to allow it to happen. 

I think we are going to just accept that this is a no pdf line. (I'm a One Ring fan as well, so I've already swallowed this pill). 

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Ski said:

Thank you! :)

Hopefully they can read what you wrote lol cause im sure as hell tired of hearing it and tired of explaining it.

 

No, no. When the game goes to final print and hits the shelves, and people who were previously unaware of the game buy it at their local store, then they rush home to sign on here, we'll have to go through these arguments about PDFs, lack of Force focus, and having to buy three core rulebooks aaaaaaaaallllllllll over again.

Suddenly I have a headache.

 

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GoblynByte said:

Ski said:

 

Thank you! :)

Hopefully they can read what you wrote lol cause im sure as hell tired of hearing it and tired of explaining it.

 

 

 

No, no. When the game goes to final print and hits the shelves, and people who were previously unaware of the game buy it at their local store, then they rush home to sign on here, we'll have to go through these arguments about PDFs, lack of Force focus, and having to buy three core rulebooks aaaaaaaaallllllllll over again.

Suddenly I have a headache.

 

 

HAHAHAHAH sooo true. Okay fair enough. When it goes to print make sure we are here to fend off the mobs ;)

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 I kinda feel sorry for game companies these days, because in many ways they're damned if they do and damned if they don't.

 

If they released one set of core rules and then a bunch of supps, they run into problems because people don't wanna flip through two books to run a game (the core and the relative supps).  Oh, they say they can hack it - particularly in comparison to flipping through multiple core books, but they'll *****.  Worse yet, particularly with a new system, they'll have to tweak the rules by addition and refinement in many of the supps because, well, for instance, fleet combat likely won't be covered in the one document core rules, even though it should.  Indeed, even though theoretically every rule should be covered in the central document, it won't be, because then you get a document the size of the HERO system and the industry has convinced itself gamers won't buy a book that big (personally, I think gamers will buy books that big, even though they'll grouse about their size and intimidation value, but hey, what do I know).  So, every supp will have extra rules.

Then there's also the New Players Inaugural Whine - you know, the one that gets cited all the time as an excuse to keep rebooting Editions "There are thirty books in this game line, new players will feel intimidated and put upon trying to get into the game."  I think some companies take waaaay too much advantage of that *cough Wizards cough* but I think FF is trying to split the difference by allowing GM's and players to refine their focus such that if they want to run a game with just Rebel soldiers they can.  Thereby reducing the New Player Inaugural Whine as much as possible.  If you dislike having to buy three core books, imagine having to buy them every four years or so.

IMO, Star Wars games that have tried to just chuck all the possible classes/careers into one core player's guide/book have never been able to do any single one of them justice.  You hadda wait for a supp. to really flesh out some of the classes/careers - particularly when dealing with Force users.  Hell, sometimes for the complete shebang with Force users you hadda wait for a number of supps to come out.  I think giving them their own book is a good idea, particularly if they're treated as being an order of magnitude more powerful than other characters, which I think they should be.  They should be the Space Marines of this iteration of SW.  Some people disagree with me that Force users are an order of magnitude more powerful, but frankly when they disagree, they cite the prominent Force users of the Rebellion era and compared to the Republic era (Old or Dissolution to Empire) those guys are pretty sad.  Skywalker, even by Episode VI wasn't a stellar Jedi by Republic standards, Darth Vader had to use most of his power just to move around in the suit and not go bonkers (BTW, quick note, there's a passage in the novel Rise of a Dark Lord that explains in exquisite detail what living as Vader with the suit and the substandard reconstruction is like - if you never felt sorry for poor old Black-Noggin, you will when you're done reading that passage, I guarantee it), Palpatine's body could barely contain his own power, Kenobi fought with his lightsaber like my Uncle, with his bad hip, reaches for the peanut butter in the kitchen cupboard.  And even if Yoda wasn't a puppet in Episode V, he looked like he was another one whose body was barely able to contain the power it had access to.  These guys were not Mace Windu's or Kai Adi Mundis or Assaj Ventress or Count Dooku or young Obi-wans.

One thing I urge you not to kid yourselves about (particularly you old timers) is that when it comes to RPG products, we have always been unpaid playtesters.  Except that whereas now the game is called a Beta, back in the day, they called it a first edition.  And honestly, we were **** lucky if the company even bothered to make any errata or new editions.  Some companies just put stuff out and never looked back.  Now, are those the most successful companies in the business, but hey, Palladium has been around for about a quarter century and they ain't puttin' out a new edition of their core rules for nobody!  Now companies are being innovative and yeah, a bit sneaky, they want you to pay to do something you used to do for nothing.  Frankly I think it's clever and in a way it's actually likely to get us a better product than in the past.

Just my thoughts.

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 A modicum of maturity and understanding from us, the community of fans and players, will go a long way in this regard. I assure you, the designers working on Edge of the Empire have put their hearts and souls into this project, probably working a lot of long hours to get the beta book published for GenCon. Now the fruits of that labor are in our hands, and it's up to us to react and give feedback.

Hopefully most of us will focus on helping to make the game better, rather than fixating on matters that are entirely out of the designers' hands, such as creating PDFs. There's nothing wrong with expressing dissatisfaction over some aspect of the game's production, but it's beginning to feel as if we're belaboring the point.

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I personally just realized what totally made this book's purchase worth it for me--there is a distinct possibility that things I like will be removed from the game by the time the "final" version is released. Having the beta book means that I still have the original rules, and can use them instead, knowing that at least at one point, they fit into the game design, so should still work pretty well.

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Inksplat said:

I personally just realized what totally made this book's purchase worth it for me--there is a distinct possibility that things I like will be removed from the game by the time the "final" version is released. Having the beta book means that I still have the original rules, and can use them instead, knowing that at least at one point, they fit into the game design, so should still work pretty well.
Worst case scenario you have a bunch of stuff from the Beta that you can use to get a jump-start on your House Rules for the final release happy.gif

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Inksplat said:

I personally just realized what totally made this book's purchase worth it for me--there is a distinct possibility that things I like will be removed from the game by the time the "final" version is released. Having the beta book means that I still have the original rules, and can use them instead, knowing that at least at one point, they fit into the game design, so should still work pretty well.

 

Well said sir!

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And on the flip side, having the beta means there is still a chance to get things you might not like changed.  Especially if you are articulate and argue the point well enough that others agree - or they already agree in which case you're helping add fuel to the fire to get things changed so it is a more perfect game.

 

And honestly, I do believe a lot of the doom and gloom so far is from those of us still waiting for the book to arrive. ;)

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