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Peacekeeper_b

Seriously?

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Malifer said:

 

You are correct sir.

Lucasfilm classifies a PDF book as an electronic game. So if FFG wanted to sell PDFs the would have purchase an additional license from Lucasarts which deals with video game licenses.

 

Dafuq?

How can a company be so dumb?

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VagrantWhisper said:

Venthrac said:

 

 If the beta book is close to the final version, there might be no need to buy the final version. Just saying'.

 

 

Then what's the point of releasing it in the first place? 

If all "Beta Test" means is that for $30 I get to do FFG's proofreading for them… then the whole process has sunk to an all new low.  Where's the Beta test feedback forum? The scheduled tests? The "stress testing"? Maybe it's coming, but if they charged $30 for a Beta, and the final version is just a spell check away, then that's a low blow.

Okay, you object to the idea of FFG offering players the chance to playtest the game and proofread it and submit other feedback. There are a lot of people who share this view, and to them I would say, wait to buy the final product, and do not participate.

There are also a lot of players like myself, who think this is a neat opportunity to make some contribution, probably nothing earth-shaking, mind you, to the RPG. Oh and by the way, I just bought pretty much a full-featured Star Wars RPG with rules that I like for $29.95. I could run a campaign with this book for years.

My point is, the existence of players such as myself justifies this entire concept. If nobody wanted this, then it would have been a bad idea, but clearly, some people do.

And that is the point of doing it in the first place.

 

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klaymen_sk said:

Malifer said:

 

 

You are correct sir.

Lucasfilm classifies a PDF book as an electronic game. So if FFG wanted to sell PDFs the would have purchase an additional license from Lucasarts which deals with video game licenses.

 

 

 

Dafuq?

How can a company be so dumb?

 

ummm its not dumb seeing as how sooo many people dl the pdf files and the company looses money that way due to torrent sites …

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klaymen_sk said:

Malifer said:

 

 

You are correct sir.

Lucasfilm classifies a PDF book as an electronic game. So if FFG wanted to sell PDFs the would have purchase an additional license from Lucasarts which deals with video game licenses.

 

 

 

Dafuq?

How can a company be so dumb?

It sounds like a primarily legal issue. That in the eyes of some courts, digital media = digital media. Any file or set of files that is accessed via a computer probably fall under the same classification.

That said, its their property, they can set the rules.

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Pirate Spice said:

Even worse that many desirable character options aren't available in the initial release (and require buying entirely new core rulebooks to get them). Requiring special dice is unattractive as a consumer.

 

I'm just curious, what 'desirable character options' aren't available?  From what I've read, the only options that you cannot play straight out of the book are things like 'full' Jedi, hotshot fighter pilots, and maybe soldiers (although 'guns for hire' are available).

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I'm less worried about the price of the book itself.  Though very unhappy about the shipping costs.  No option for a Media Mail shipping?  Dang I wish I had my budget right and time to get it at Gen Con.  But alas, by the time I discovered it I had a bit of a date arranged so, yeah, wasn't time to wait in line. ;)  Oh well, just meant 10 more dollars.  :(

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Snowman0147 said:

Especially when there is the Only War beta that is doing it far better than this beta. 

Can I ask what you mean by 'doing it far better'?  

The Edge of the Empire book has only been available foe four days now; the description clearly states what sort of feedback that are looking for.  FFG have also stated that "We will be adding weekly updates to our website as the testing progresses."  How is that any different from the Only War beta?

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Ski said:

 

ummm its not dumb seeing as how sooo many people dl the pdf files and the company looses money that way due to torrent sites …

 

 

-grab a book

-scan its contents

-put it into one file

-???

-profit

Yep, it is time consuming, but it can be done. And no amount of DRM can prevent you from doing it, unless the companies send one policeman to every customer to watch what they do with their books.

 

Piracy is a mere excuse. But that is for another thread.

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klaymen_sk said:

Ski said:

 

ummm its not dumb seeing as how sooo many people dl the pdf files and the company looses money that way due to torrent sites …

 

 

-grab a book

-scan its contents

-put it into one file

-???

-profit

Yep, it is time consuming, but it can be done. And no amount of DRM can prevent you from doing it, unless the companies send one policeman to every customer to watch what they do with their books.

If you're selling it, they will eventually catch you (that money has to go somewhere).

Still, I would stress that you move the conversation away from outright piracy. Its wrong, and any attempt to justify it (no matter how easy, common, publicly accepted it is) will fall flat.

Its their IP, their license to offer to those as they see fit. If they don't want PDFs made, then so be it.

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DaemonicShaman said:

Pirate Spice said:

 

Even worse that many desirable character options aren't available in the initial release (and require buying entirely new core rulebooks to get them). Requiring special dice is unattractive as a consumer.

 

 

 

I'm just curious, what 'desirable character options' aren't available?  From what I've read, the only options that you cannot play straight out of the book are things like 'full' Jedi, hotshot fighter pilots, and maybe soldiers (although 'guns for hire' are available).

"…'full' Jesi, hotshot fighter pilots, and maybe soldiers…"

You just named three of the most iconic and/or essential roles of Star Wars. Those are exactly the options I'm talking about.

Honestly, I can forgive the $30 beta. Some excellent points have been made here about how there is obviously a market for it. I don't like it. I think it's ill-treatment of customers like me who would otherwise like to help out with feedback. But ultimately, I can get over it, as I play plenty of games I've never beta-tested for.

It's mostly the three core rulebooks that gets my goat, on top of the other issues I've named. It sucked when D&D did it, and at least they gave you entirely new material with each core book (PHB, DMG, MM). It sucked buying the same rules for each new World of Darkness line back in the old days. Even back when I played Palladium games, it was frustrating purchasing the same set of rules with every new game. To me, this seems like a huge step backward in RPG development, when other companies (e.g. White Wolf, Pinnacle) have figured out the way to go is a single, inexpensive core rulebook with modular books afterward to enhance the game. That would have worked so well here.

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So your problem is that you don't think it does what you want it to, and that you don't like what they're doing more than anything else.  

Have you actually looked into what has been said on other websites, or watched the presentation on YouTube as to what will be covered in each of the books?

From what has been said, the first book will focus on the 'scum and villainy' aspects of the setting, which many people like - also covered will be things like exploration, bounty hunting and smuggling.

The second book will include the politics involved with the rebellion, as well as fleet action between capital ships.

The final book will focus on the Last Surviving Jedi in the galaxy, and probably include more in depth force rules.

Yes, it is likely that the core rules will be duplicated in each of the books, but in all probability, they will include new classes and background information that fit within the focus of that book. Would you prefer one book that tries to be all things to all people, or seperate books that allow people to play the types of games they want to play?

It seems that even though you will be able to create pilots, mercenary soldiers and force users (which you've identified as 'core' classes), you seem to have already decided that you don't want to play this game because you feel that you've been stiffed by other games that have used similar models in the past?

You mention Pinnacle and White Wolf as examples of 'how things should be', but Pinnacle don't seem to be that active in producing their own products (most of the books released for savage worlds are by third parties, with only a few books by Pinnacle themselves), and white wolf seem to be going for a more PDF only approach (although they are doing a 20th anniversary edition of Vampire: The Masquerade) so I don't think that either of those are good examples of business models that FFG should follow.

The way I look at is that I get to play the game earlier than I otherwise would.  We know that the full version of the game is being released sometime in 2013, but we don't know when; it's entirely possible that the game won't be released until Gencon next year, but we can play it now - potentially a full year before the game is released.

 

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Mainly because beta testing should be free.  It should be free because you are doing work for these guys.  You doing work that could get you paid, but instead they tell you got early access to the game.  It is a very simple deal.  You get the game early, but you have to beta test it so that the company will know what to fix.

Now you are wondering why I would pay 20 dollars for a pdf that is clearly beta?  Because when it is all done and the finilized core book pdf comes in I will get a 20 dollars off coupon.  So yeah I am doing a pre purchase of the game.  In a way you can say the beta pdf is free because I will get a discount later on that is equal to the price of the beta.  Hell I don't see any "Seriously?" threads in the Only War Beta forums. Nobody is complaining about Only War.

Now to clarify some things.  I personally believe this is LucasArts once again being too controlling of their license.  I am sure if Fantasy Flight could they would do the Only War route because that did garner my good will and the good will of others.  Just I am not going to pay money for a hard cover book for a beta with shipping cost right on top of that.  That screams unfair to the consumer to me.  If they put it at pdf form and offer a discount for the core pdf book then I would jump on it.

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 I think there is some confusion in this thread.  You do not have to pay for or participate in the beta.  If you want you can wait untill retail release and only buy the finished product.  The beta isn't like a tax or something that you must pay for, no one is going to come to your house and force you to pay.   

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Haroon said:

 I think there is some confusion in this thread.  You do not have to pay for or participate in the beta.  If you want you can wait untill retail release and only buy the finished product.  The beta isn't like a tax or something that you must pay for, no one is going to come to your house and force you to pay.   

 

Although that would be funny. 

I would laugh.

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Haroon said:

 I think there is some confusion in this thread.  You do not have to pay for or participate in the beta.  If you want you can wait untill retail release and only buy the finished product.  The beta isn't like a tax or something that you must pay for, no one is going to come to your house and force you to pay.   

I cannot say that in my opinion that it looks like a unfair deal despite the fact I don't blame Fantasy Flight for it?

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Snowman0147 said:

I cannot say that in my opinion that it looks like a unfair deal despite the fact I don't blame Fantasy Flight for it?

Having a little trouble with your syntax there.  Do you mean, you should be able to say it's not worth it regardless of your attitude toward FFG?  The answer is, it depends.  You can certainly say that it's not worth it to you.  It's not really possible for you to say that it's not worth it to anybody.  But maybe I have misunderstood your sentiment?

 

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Snowman0147 said:

Now to clarify some things.  I personally believe this is LucasArts once again being too controlling of their license.  I am sure if Fantasy Flight could they would do the Only War route because that did garner my good will and the good will of others.  Just I am not going to pay money for a hard cover book for a beta with shipping cost right on top of that.  That screams unfair to the consumer to me.  If they put it at pdf form and offer a discount for the core pdf book then I would jump on it.

I think is has been stated elsewhere that FFG are unable to produce pdf's due to the licensing agreement. It has even been suggested the LucasArts class pdf's as 'electronic games' and would be covered by a video game license, which I would say would be way out of FFGs price range. However, I have no idea if the last part is true.

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DaemonicShaman said:

Snowman0147 said:

 

Now to clarify some things.  I personally believe this is LucasArts once again being too controlling of their license.  I am sure if Fantasy Flight could they would do the Only War route because that did garner my good will and the good will of others.  Just I am not going to pay money for a hard cover book for a beta with shipping cost right on top of that.  That screams unfair to the consumer to me.  If they put it at pdf form and offer a discount for the core pdf book then I would jump on it.

 

 

I think is has been stated elsewhere that FFG are unable to produce pdf's due to the licensing agreement. It has even been suggested the LucasArts class pdf's as 'electronic games' and would be covered by a video game license, which I would say would be way out of FFGs price range. However, I have no idea if the last part is true.

Now I don't know what you are saying.  Are you agreeing with me, clarifying me, or what?

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Manchu said:

Snowman0147 said:

I cannot say that in my opinion that it looks like a unfair deal despite the fact I don't blame Fantasy Flight for it?

Having a little trouble with your syntax there.  Do you mean, you should be able to say it's not worth it regardless of your attitude toward FFG?  The answer is, it depends.  You can certainly say that it's not worth it to you.  It's not really possible for you to say that it's not worth it to anybody.  But maybe I have misunderstood your sentiment?

 

Manchu said:

Snowman0147 said:

I cannot say that in my opinion that it looks like a unfair deal despite the fact I don't blame Fantasy Flight for it?

Having a little trouble with your syntax there.  Do you mean, you should be able to say it's not worth it regardless of your attitude toward FFG?  The answer is, it depends.  You can certainly say that it's not worth it to you.  It's not really possible for you to say that it's not worth it to anybody.  But maybe I have misunderstood your sentiment?

 

To me it doesn't seem like it is worth it at all.  So I guess you can say I am voicing out that it does appear to be a unfair deal for me.  I don't see how it is worth it for anyone else to be honest.  Even if you get a pretty book out of the deal it is still just a unfinished game.  I guess what I am seeing is this…

Only War Beta (20) + Only War Core (30) - Only War Beta Coupon (20) = 30 dollars

Only War Core (30) = 30 dollars

Star Wars Beta (30) + Shipping (10 x 2) + Star Wars Core (Maybe 50) = 100 dollars

Star Wars Core (50) + Shipping (10) = 60 dollars

You notice how the two sums from the Only War are completely the same?  This is mainly because the beta is in the long term free.  You pay now, but that coupon will give value right back to you when the core book comes in.  Which fits my belief that betas should be free.  There is a price difference between the Star Wars Beta route and just out right buying the core book.  A forty dollar difference to be a exact.  Now in my opinion and in my belief that looks quite wrong.  So to me it seems unfair and I feel I have the right to point that out.

Now you maybe asking why betas should be free?  I have to say because you are also providing a service to fantasy flight.  Free service I will add.  So the math in my head is that Fantasy Flight offers a beta so you can get the game earlier, but on the same token you provide a equal service right back to them.  They provided the goods, but you are the one that refined those goods so it can be sold better later on.  If you don't believe me, then look at the guys who did the demo tests, the alpha tests, and the closed in the office only beta tests.  They all got payed.  Maybe not much, but they still got payed.

If you disagree with me more power to you.  Maybe you see value in it that I don't.

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I played the demo at gen con and then bought the book. Granted I didn't have to pay the shipping but I am happy with my purchase.

 

This is basically a finished game system that nay have some minor tweaks made to it. I am happy to pay the $30 to have early access into playing the game.

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DaemonicShaman said:

 I was agreeing with you in that it appears that the licensing agreement prevents ffg from producing PDF versions of their star wars products. 

Okay and thank you for clarifying that.

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