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Hypherflaeion

Interaction between Misses, Using surges, and "Shadow" ability.

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 Hey there, had this situation come up a few times so hoping someone can share some insight into this.

 

 
Shadow: A hero adjacent to this monster that declares an attack must spend 1 surge or the attack is considered a miss
 
Shield Slam: While you have a Shield equipped, each of your attacks with a melee weapon gain: Surge: Choose a monster adjacent to you. That monster is stunned
 
Rule Book, page 12: If an X is rolled on the blue attack die, the attack is considered a miss and all other results are ignored.
 
So, take the example where an adjacent hero attacks the shadow dragon. He does not roll an "x" on the attack die, but only rolls one surge. The hero doesn't really care about doing the damage to the dragon, only wants to use the Shield Slam ability to stun it.
 
OL Argument: Shadow says that if you don't spend a surge, the attack is considered a miss. Since from the rule book, it makes it fairly clear that misses don't allow you to use your surges, the player cannot use Shield Slam (or any other surge ability). 
 
Hero Argument: Shadow says that if I don't spend a surge, the attack is considered a miss, HOWEVER, the rules say rolling an "X" on the attack die is what disregards surges, NOT misses in general. Thus, I can "miss" the attack from shadow, but still use Shield Slam, and stun the dragon.
 
So, which view is correct? Thanks!
 
 
 

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I'm a noob myself and am documented for completely missing the grey die attached to the chainmail so I wanted to get that disclaimer out before answering…

 

My take on your dilemma is the "Golden Rule".  The quest book trumps the core rules.  The individual cards trump the questbook.

 

Therefore, the Shadow Dragon card is the trump factor…yes, the hero has a shield which is quite clear in what it does, but he is attempting to use it on the shadow dragon and the shadow dragon, according to golden rule is king.  No other rule or card can trump its own rule.

 

Therefore, I would rule in favor of the OL and would suggest the hero needs to roll two surges in order to use his shield.

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 Hey there, thanks for the reply!

I don't really think the player was arguing anything on the cards that override the rulebook. He entirely thought that he would MISS the attack if he didn't spend a surge, he just didn't want to deal damage, he cared a lot more about stunning the dragon.

 

Since the rulebook only says that rolling the "X" is what causes the miss and to disregard actions, he took it that a missing in some other way allowed him to use the surge.

 

While the grammar is a bit off in the rulebook regarding if an "X" on a die disregards surges, or if "missing" disregards surges, it does seem that the intent of the rules was that MISSING disregards surges, and an "X" causes you to miss. 

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schmoo34 said:

My take on your dilemma is the "Golden Rule".  The quest book trumps the core rules.  The individual cards trump the questbook.

…which is completely irrelevant to this question.

No one is suggesting any interpretation where the cards would be overrided by the core rules.  The question is, does a miss inherently prevent you from spending surges?

And the question of when surge use is valid a very complicated issue with sequencing issues that was radically errata'd multiple times in first editon and has no clear rules addressing it in second edition (at least, not that I can find), so I think it's a very valid question.

For starters:  you obviously need to be able to spend a surge to overcome the Shadow ability.  That means, if Shadow causes the attack to miss, it must do so after you have spent surges; otherwise you would have no opportunity to spend a surge to overcome it.  Which means, if that miss prevents you from spending surges on other things, it would have to do so retroactively, which invites a whole host of new issues…

I think this would be a good issue for the FAQ.

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Antistone said:

schmoo34 said:

 

My take on your dilemma is the "Golden Rule".  The quest book trumps the core rules.  The individual cards trump the questbook.

 

 

…which is completely irrelevant to this question.

No one is suggesting any interpretation where the cards would be overrided by the core rules.  The question is, does a miss inherently prevent you from spending surges?

And the question of when surge use is valid a very complicated issue with sequencing issues that was radically errata'd multiple times in first editon and has no clear rules addressing it in second edition (at least, not that I can find), so I think it's a very valid question.

For starters:  you obviously need to be able to spend a surge to overcome the Shadow ability.  That means, if Shadow causes the attack to miss, it must do so after you have spent surges; otherwise you would have no opportunity to spend a surge to overcome it.  Which means, if that miss prevents you from spending surges on other things, it would have to do so retroactively, which invites a whole host of new issues…

I think this would be a good issue for the FAQ.

 

Although I don't feel I have to defend the relevance, the point of it all was that the card trumps everything.  The argument being made, if I may paraphrase is whether or not an item (aka a shield) trumps the card that the player is trying to affect (aka the shadow dragon).  The Shadow Dragon ruleset trumps everything else…including the shield, and the quest and the rulebook for that matter.  But the point was that it trumps the shield.

 

If a player has only one surge and must choose between hitting the shadow dragon or using the shield…the shield will miss the shadow dragon because the dragon was missed entirely.  The shield can surge all day long, it will miss every time because the shadow dragon may only be hit with an additional surge.

 

It only becomes a "valid, very complicated issue" because you choose to make it so rather than following the "core rules" which states the golden rule which resolves everything in elegant simplicity.

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So then according to the "golden rule" what defines when one card trumps another.  I can find that quest book trumps rules and cards trump all, but find nothing saying that this card trumps this which trumps that.  I can just as easily say that I think the shield card trumps the dragon card using the exact same logic as you.

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kiper32 said:

So then according to the "golden rule" what defines when one card trumps another.  I can find that quest book trumps rules and cards trump all, but find nothing saying that this card trumps this which trumps that.  I can just as easily say that I think the shield card trumps the dragon card using the exact same logic as you.

 

Sorry, but you cannot use the exact same logic because it isn't logical.  Perhaps it is because I play living card games and deal with this quite often, but the "trumping" occurs on the card which the effect is being applied.

 

The shield is applying its effect ONTO the dragon.  It isn't the dragon applying TO the shield.

 

Therefore, the dragon trumps the shield every day of the week and twice on sundays.

 

If the dragon were attacking the hero and then the shield were somehow used to defend the hero, then the shield's rules trump any dragon rule.

 

If you were playing LOTR LCG, they have a Nazgul that says "No card effects may be used on this card".  According to your logic, the shield would be able to be used on the card because the shield trumps that card.  It does not.  I wish I could think of a decent Descent example which was as clearcut as that one and I apologize for referencing another game…but this is a golden rule that is generally accepted practices employed by all games.

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schmoo34 said:

Sorry, but you cannot use the exact same logic because it isn't logical.  Perhaps it is because I play living card games and deal with this quite often, but the "trumping" occurs on the card which the effect is being applied.

The shield is applying its effect ONTO the dragon.  It isn't the dragon applying TO the shield.

Therefore, the dragon trumps the shield every day of the week and twice on sundays.

 

That is totally crazy. By that logic, if I have a monster card that says it deals 5 damage, and a hero ability (like the one on Leoric of the Book) that says monsters deal one less damage, then the monster wins and Leoric's ability does exactly nothing (ever).  Rules conflicts are normally resolved by specificity.

But it's also, still, totally irrelevant.  No one is suggesting that the shield's ability "trumps" the dragon's ability, because the abilities are not contradictory.  If you don't spend a surge to get past the dragon's ability, then the dragon's ability is fully applied and the attack is a miss.  No one in this entire thread is arguing otherwise.

The question we're asking is:  what does "miss" mean?  Can attacks that miss still spend surges?

The fact that the surge ability in this particular example comes from a shield isn't even relevant.  We could be spending that surge to recover fatigue, or to heal, or on any other available surge ability.

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 I think that here there isnt any problem, its absolutely clear:

"If an X is rolled on the blue attack die, the attack is considered a miss and all other results are ignored"

All is all, damage and surges, so if the atack miss it dosent matter if you roll 1 damage or 20 damage and 20 surges, "all other results are ignored"

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 I have other question about shadow ability…well, the dude is about all abilities…

I know that a hero cant be affected by 2 stuns for example…but can a hero be affected by 2 abilities? for example…if a hero is next to 2 shadow dragons…the hero have to get 2 sugres to hit right?

In the rulebook dont say nothing so I think that that should be the correct answer…

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 logically, I think you are correct; how could the dragon be stunned by a shield slam when the attack missed?  But descent isn't a game of logic.  Going by raw, there are essentially two different kinds of "misses".  The first occurs when an "x" is rolled, and precludes spending surges, triggering effects, etc.  The other "miss" is a little more subtle.  It occurs after dice rolls and spending surges.  It occurs when you have insufficient range, by monster abilities, etc.  This "miss" just implies no damage us dealt.  It does not prevent spending of surges, otherwise the + range surge effects would be worthless.

The shadow dragon's ability necesarrily falls into the second category.  If it didn't the hero would never get a chance to spend surges to overcome the effect.  He is free to spend surges as he sees fit.  The shield slam card does not specify the attack must hit or do damage (unlike the rulebook rules for stun). He merely has to spend the surge to trigger the ability.  Meaning as long as he doesn't roll an "x" he's good to go.

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 I am sorry but I must disagree, where did you find that "This "miss" just implies no damage us dealt", I think it can be a good home rule, but in the rulebook there is only one miss, only one, and that miss says that "all other results are ignored", so according to that sentence, it dosent matter when you see if the atack miss or not, if it is with a X, or if you dont have enought distance or if it is after spending surges…the miss cause if it miss, "all other results are ignored", and all other results mean damage, surges and distance…all is all I think so you can spend the surge in damage or in stund or other things…but if finally the atack miss, all is ignored. 

I think that should be so clear…its easy…there are no various tipes of miss, there are only one miss and its clear what happens it it occurs..

I dont understand your point of view…you are saying that you can atack me with a bow, miss the atack but stun me for example? I think that is…let`s say only illógical…if you miss, the arrow hit a tree…not me xDD

Otherwise, what do you think about the question I asked? if a hero is adyacent to 2 dragons…he have to spend 2 surges right?

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On page 15 of the rule book it clearly states

"Some abilities and effects have the chance of inflicting conditions, such as
Poisoned, upon heroes and monsters. Additionally, some attacks have a
® ability featuring a condition (such as Disease, Immobilize, Poison, or
Stun). If the attack deals at least 1 ¬(after rolling defense dice), the target
suffers the listed condition."

So unless the attack hits and does a point of damage no conditions can be placed.

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 Thats a very good clarification, thank you very much RagsMckay but…canyou answer the question I did? I am going to play in a few days and its very posible that the bersek atack adyacent to 2 dragons…I think that he has to get 2 surges te hit but…I want to know what people think gui%C3%B1o.gif

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 In that  page I notice that:

"If an ability allows you to inflict a condition on a figure that is not the target of the attack (Shield Slam), are you still required to inflict at least one damage on the target figure in order for the condition to apply to the other figure?

Adam wrote:
Shield slam does not require you to deal damage to the target."

So if you deal 5 damage and stun (with that ability) and de defender gets 5 shields, you can stun he, BUT if the attack miss (X, distance or shadow) all results are ignored so you cant use the surge to stun…that is my opinion.

About the 2 shadows…I think it is dificult to see with one shadow…so you need a surge to not miss, and in there was 2 shadows…there will be more dificult to see…so maybe you will need 2 surges…In the rulebook says that a hero cant be affected by 2 conditions…but this ability isnt a condition so…

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Check that thread again.  As I understand it "X" and "miss" are not the same.  Hopefully the next FAQ will make it clearer.

If you roll an "X" two things happen: (1) you miss & deal no damage, and (2) all results on other dice are ignored.

If you don't roll enough range (including melee vs. Stealthy), or don't spend a surge against Shadow or Unseen, you miss & deal no damage.  You can still use surges to increase range or recover fatigue or trigger non-damage abilities. 

Shield Slam does not require you to hit (damage) the target of the original attack, so I think it would allow you to Stun an adjacent figure even when Shadowed.

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 I understand your point of view, but it seems so absurd to atack someone, cant hurt him but stun, or move 1 space…I dont think that I will play like that…at least until a formal response. sad.gif (in that post there are most people that think the OL in the first question have reason so…)

In any case thanks for answer, I hope more people could answer the question about 2 dragons with shadow…gui%C3%B1o.gif

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 like I said, descent isn't a game that makes logical sense :)

My opinions are based off of rulings in 1e where they clarified the difference between an "x" and any other kind of miss.  I'm really interested to hear what the ruling for 2e is.

As far as the shadow dragon, I'd have to see the actual wording on the card.  If the only prerequisite is to be adjacent, then I'd say both affect the hero

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Triu said:

 

Check that thread again.  As I understand it "X" and "miss" are not the same.  Hopefully the next FAQ will make it clearer.

 

This does indeed appear to be the case, per RAW.  I also agree that I would like this to be clarified in the FAQ, because a number of the answers Adam has supposedly provided in that BGG thread are potentially contradictory depending on how it susses out.

< house rules >

In my personal opinion, the definition of "miss" should be "this attack ends with no effect and all further results on the dice are ignored."  I would also say that rolling an X and missing due to range are both "misses" along with any ability that makes an attack "miss." 

The Shadow Dragon ability would be better worded something along the lines of "Any attack that targets this figure is treated as having one fewer Surge.  If it has no Surges, the attack is a miss."

An attack that fails to deal damage is not a miss, but the rule about needing to deal at least one point of damage to apply a condition must still be observed.

Of course, none of this is what the rules actually say.  It's entirely house rules territory.

< /house rules >

Edit: Looks like HTML escaping fails too.  Oh well.

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I also would like to see some clarifications about the "miss" and "surge" issues.

I apply things the following way:

- If the combat die is an "X", it is an absolute miss : no attack effect or surges may be applied (EXC Tahra can choose to reroll the blue die as per her hero special ability)

- When making a ranged attack, range must be rolled to apply any other attack effect or surges (EXC: Range augmenting surges can of course be spent)

- When making an attack, even if no damage is scored (e.g. due to good defense die roll), surge and other attack effects can apply (if the attack is not an "X" miss or an "unsufficient range" miss).
Of course, some effects are explicitly linked to damage caused : those would not apply if no damage is caused.

Do you think I got things right?

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 and what about shadow?

I am agree with you but I admit players to spend surges to get fatigue if no range or in a miss like shadow…I hope Adam put some light here…xD

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