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From the core rules…future LARGE units!

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Aahzmandius_Karrde said:

IG-58 said:

 Wild Karrde? How many of you even know what that IS much less would be willing to cough up $50 for one?

 

Ya, I can't think of a single person who would be interested in a ship named the Wild Karrde.  Not me certainly. </sarcasm>

 

Of course not you!  ha!

 

"large" things may not be ships at all, as Stunami mentioned.  They could be space stations (NOT the Death Star), gun platforms, turrets (hopefully), who knows?  I think we've pretty much established there isn't much that's recognizable to the masses between the size of the Falcon and the next closest, which is probably the Gallofree Transport, which is too big to be sold as a regular expansion ship (at least as currently packaged). 

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IG-58 said:

I actually misspoke about the 1/350 Blockade Runner; it's not 15", it's 18". That would make a 1/200 miniature well over 22". Guys, I just don't see it happening! Can you imagine the cost, first off?
Here's an easy test to see whether you actually want such a thing: the Lego kit for the blockade runner measures about 21" and can be purchased on eBay for around 200 USD. Now weigh the costs and benefits of having a reasonably accurate scale representation of that ship in the game. You can get one right now for 200 USD. (Yeah, it's Lego but that's not necessarily a disadvantage since the thing will double as a quirky display piece one way or another.)

IG-58 said:

And other options are even less likely: Jedi consular cruiser? No weapons, almost as big as the corvette, and more obscure. […] Rebel transport - expect about $30 for a ship with no combat capability. A prop. Ehhh… no?
Couple of points there:  First, I believe the Consular-class cruiser does have weapons or at least there are armed variants.  The relative obscurity of the ship isn't it's big drawback, either, but rather the fact that it doesn't exist in the OT.  I really think FFG has an OT-only strategy so far.  Second, with the Millennium Falcon priced at 30 USD, a Rebel Transport would more likely be in the 50 - 70 USD range (low-balling it).  Finally, would the Rebel Transport be a "prop"?  That characterization is misplaced in the world of table top wargaming, which is what we're actually talking about here (as opposed to the WotC mini game, which was more akin to WizKids' *Clix lines).  Is a model of a farm house just a prop in a Napoleonic wargame?  Is a bastion-mounted lascanon just a prop in 40k?  Terrain elements are very important to wargames as they are inherently interactive, even the static examples, like stands of trees.  How much more so with elements that can move and shoot?  I don't think you should dismiss the idea of larger ships as props.  There are real concerns, like cost and choosing a ship that helps build the OT-centric brand but I have little doubt that larger scale ships could have a very interesting role to play.

That said, I agree that throwing in larger ships that are out of scale would be a terrible decision.

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Just for the sake of completeness, in the CGI-modified scene of the Mos Eisley spaceport present in the post-1997 versions of the Original Trilogy movies, it appears a smaller model of the "standard" Rebel Transport.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/GR-45_medium_transport

The "Inside the worlds of the Star Wars Trilogy" book says that the Mos Eisley scene Medium Transport it is a GR-45 model, smaller than the GR-75 model that appears in "The Empire Strikes Back" and "Return of the Jedi". There is no official length about the GR-45, but people who has tried to scale the ship says that its length it should be close to 60 meters. This makes this ship roughly two times the length of the Millenium Falcon, and perhaps makes it the only viable way to represent a ship larger than the Falcon while remaining true to the concept of only representing ships seen in the Original Trilogy.

Of course, there is still the problem of what purpose would serve a ship like this in the game, apart from the obvious one of being a very big target to escort / destroy. And there is the additional problem that, being entirely made by CGI, there is no practical model to study when making the mini.

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@Agrivar:  I would think a computer model would be just as helpful as a physical one to the FFG team, not that I doubt that the computer model wasn't simply based on the physical model of the GR-75.  But anyway … the GR-45 is a civilian ship and so unlikely to be armed.  I'm not sure what the difference is in cost to make and therefore eventual MSRP between a 60m and a 90m ship but I'd be disappointed with an unarmed large ship.

As to what role a model that large would fill in this game, please see my post above.  One further point is that the presence of a large ship would certainly be scenario-defining.  It is definitely the center piece of any game in which it would be fielded.  So one has to wonder whether it would have an utility outside of specific scenarios -- and most especially whether it would have a place in tournament play.

If FFG does release something this big, I think they should sell the GR-75 in a boxed set as a true expansion to the basic game, with rules covering a variety of missions centered around the transport.  (I envision a similar "Death Star Trench Run" set with terrain + turbolasers, although FFG said they had no plans to sell the components of their Death Star demo table).  In those missions, the GR-75 would not eat into the build points of either side and would be offset by certain mission-specific Imperial advantages.

But I think every ship model released should have a potential place on a tournament list.  While it is easy to conceptualize a ship as large as the GR-75 as interactive terrain in mission-based play, I have difficulty seeing how it would fit into a tournament build.  Same goes for the Lambda-class shuttle, which is probably a medium-category ship.  It's definitely something I'll be trying to puzzle out.

 

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Manchu said:

But I think every ship model released should have a potential place on a tournament list.  While it is easy to conceptualize a ship as large as the GR-75 as interactive terrain in mission-based play, I have difficulty seeing how it would fit into a tournament build.  Same goes for the Lambda-class shuttle, which is probably a medium-category ship.  It's definitely something I'll be trying to puzzle out.

I agree that everything should have the potential to be tournatment viable (lest it be labeled as an "unnecessary" by tourney goers who, frankly, are more likely to keep FFG's interest in this line alive.)  It's hard to envision rules for the Lambda shuttle that would make it something you'd want to take over something actually designed for combat, like the TIE.  I guess you shave a few points down, give it two firing arcs (IIRC, the shuttle has a weapon in the back,) and make it about as manuverable as a Y-Wing or so.  That would give the Imperial player something to consider, without negating the purpose and draw of other ships.

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Excellent points.  So a GR-75 for example would trade basically all maneuverability for all or some combination of strong shields, hull armor, and multiple attacks, firing arcs, and/or more powerful weapons. The questions this raises is how much should it cost to field and in what kind of games would it be appropriate to field?  The obvious answers are (a) lots of points and (b) high point value games.  The immediate problem I see with those answers, looking at a model of the GR-75 as a product, is that they presume heavy investment in the game. So is this a product that would only be purchased by people who had already spent several hundred dollars on other products in the line?  

Probably BUT not necessarily:  in that light, it might make sense to give the model a very high point cost but at the same time make it very competitive.  Let's say a 300-point game would only give you enough to field a single GR-75 and three X-Wings.  In that case, you wouldn't have to spend a fortune on X-Wings and Y-Wings and A-Wings to play in a 300-point game.  At 70 - 80 USD for the GR-75, that 300-point list would actually be less expensive than buying eleven or so starfighters. Of course, it's only worth it if the GR-75 is a really good addition to your list because at that point value you're talking about facing a dozen or more TIE Fighters.  And at the same time it can't be too good or the Imperial players will feel cheated (unless FFG can think of a similar sized, stat'ed, and priced model to sell them).

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I'd like to see more of the customized ships of the bounty hunters and fringe characters than just the Falcon and Slave 1. The expanded universe gives us quite a few:

Outrider

Hound's Tooth

IG-2000

Mist Hunter

Those are just off the top of my head. There's quite a few more from Shadow of the Empire and other books. I think those would all be 'medium size' (except maybe the Hound's Tooth).

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I was just looking at the AWESOME Millennium Falcon model again and something just seemed a little off to me. Then it hit me. The Dish is almost 2x larger than it should be. I wonder why they did that. It is still the best miniature I have ever seen of the ship, though. I will be preordering this as soon as it's available.

For comparison:

Melfal.jpg

Millenium-Falcon.jpg

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 A GR-45 would be smaller than the balloons sold for Wings of War. 

The balloons wre only really useful for scenario play, much like a large transport.  FFG would know from their sales numbers if they would be worth the investment to create to X-Wing. 

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shmitty said:

 A GR-45 would be smaller than the balloons sold for Wings of War. 

The balloons wre only really useful for scenario play, much like a large transport.  FFG would know from their sales numbers if they would be worth the investment to create to X-Wing. 

This is my thoughts. I personally cant see the millenium falcon or slave 1 selling that great due to a) price, and b) you wont ever really buy more than one, compared to starfighters at half the price and selling in squadrons worth. So something bigger, more expensive and less usable would probably be vetoed by the accountants before it even hit the design process.

By the same count I cant see death star turrets selling at the same price as starfighters as they are very scenario specific and chances are most people will just do without rather than spending £60/$90 on 6 turrets.

Also, my personal opinion is that anything that cant be involved in a dog fight shouldnt be involved in a dog fight, adding capital ships to x-wing would be like putting titans into 40k, it would just completely break the game.

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The Correlian Star Shuttle included in the base game as a token should be about 30cm.

Here is a list of about 100 rebellion-era ships with their game scale:

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/9861516

I can't see capital ships used in game other than large events and serve as a promo for the game. There are some great models/diorama to be built though.

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 I feel like this discussion has divided into two catagories.  Ships that we would like to see and ships that belong in the game.  I agree with most of you that this ship or that ship would be a cool ship to have, even cooler if it could somehow be to scale with my x-wing figs.  But I really wonder what a ship like a Corvette would do in the game.  This of it's movement dial.  1 straight, 2 straight (maybe red) and 1 slight turn (maybe red).  It can't dog fight, but then again it doesn't need to it has turbo laiser turrets.  They can shoot 360 degrees.  But Turbo Laisers are a problem to, I mean a Turbo Laiser is about the size of an X-xing.  They aren't designed to shoot at fighters, but at larger ships.  So how many attack dice do you give a Turbor Laiser, lots becasue they are huge guns and they do lots of damage, or not very many becasue they aren't very good at shooting at fighters.

And really if we move up to larger ships like Corvettes and Frigates, don't we all really want a Star Destroyer.  I mean after x-wings, TIE Fighters and the Falcon it is a pretty iconic starship.  And a Star Destroyer really isn't going to work in a dogfighting game.

What we need is two games a dog fighting game, and only really include ships that can dogfight, and a fleet game.  That way we could have the best of both worlds

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 I asked this to the guys at the fantasy flight booth at celebration.  I was told that the upcoming corellian freighter and skipray patrol craft are considered medium sized craft for the purposes of this game.  I was also told capital ships would be like ~20 feet long in this scale and not really convenient for gameplay as it would be larger than the play area.  They want to keep this a dogfighting game.

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I can see some analogy with the way Warhammer 40k introduced larger vehicule as part as their larger games.

Chances are the models will be expensive but the cool factor should increase the sales with hardcore fans and collectors. Also, being  Star Wars, it will generate some interest. Having cool models and great showcase is a good way to advertise and would no doubt draw more potential buyers to the base game. 

Gameplay wise I could see the large ships in bigger games with different impact on the game. All starships have different roles, for instance bombers softening larger ships shields, starfighters protecting/attacking the bombers. Capital ships fighting each other, not only in direct the battle but, maybe  in another larger role, using (counter)intelligence, strategy and tactics cards to influence the outcome of the battle.

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 Beo, you might have stumbled onto something very interesting.  Perhaps a larger campaign style game where capitols and their influence play a very different role outside of the actions on the table but have an influence on the individual ship-to-ship battles.  I'm not sure how this would work in practice though.  The scales really are so very different that large scale fleet battles would need to happen in a different setting.

Plus, in the Rebellion era of the SW universe, there really weren't many large scale battles as the rebels were badly outnumbered.  Tossing so many capitals at the second death star was probably the majority of what they had available and why failure at that battle would have pretty much ended the rebellion.

Still, I think adding another layer to X-Wing could be it's future.  The Imperials need motherships and/or bases to send out those fighters and the Rebs need bases and/or motherships as well.  Just because they have Hyperdrives doesn't mean they can run w/o a home base.  A fleet scale game using X-wing to play out the skirmishes between factions is a possibility.

-DavicusPrime

 

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This discussion has me thinking…

It seems logical that we will see B-Wings and TIE Bombers at some point.  While the X-Wing, Y-Wing and TIE Advanced all have missiles of some kind, and though we saw the B-Wing and TIE Bomber get enmeshed in dogfights in the X-Wing Series of computer games, wouldn't it be logical to give them some kind of target, like a capital ship of some kind?

It may be that capital ships are too big for this game as miniatures, but maybe there will be some sort of map or massive counter that gives the heavy fighters something more than other fighters to shoot at…

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 A large ship with laser turrets, a shield projector and engines, which all can be attacked and destroyed. One side will try to damage the ship, the other side will try to prevent that from happening. B-wings and Tie-bombers have a proper target.

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bsmith13 said:

This discussion has me thinking…

It seems logical that we will see B-Wings and TIE Bombers at some point.  While the X-Wing, Y-Wing and TIE Advanced all have missiles of some kind, and though we saw the B-Wing and TIE Bomber get enmeshed in dogfights in the X-Wing Series of computer games, wouldn't it be logical to give them some kind of target, like a capital ship of some kind?

It may be that capital ships are too big for this game as miniatures, but maybe there will be some sort of map or massive counter that gives the heavy fighters something more than other fighters to shoot at…

I have been saying that capital class ships should be in this game, since this thread began.  As cool as star destroyers are they just don't engage in dog fighting.  However a Star Destroyer map, with objectives and such on would be totally cool.

A Star Destroyer wouldn't be a ship you could take but rather a mission that you could play.

awsome!

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As much as I would love it, I'm fairly certain we will NOT be getting capital ships in this game.  Think about the pain staking detail and research they put into the scale of these models.  Given my conversations with FFG employees along with a generous assumption on my part I think the largest ships we will see in this game are corvette class ships like a blockade runner.

That being said look at the table that they created for gen con and SWCVI.  The guy who did my initial demo told me that there was an actual mission associated with the table involving the turrets on the death star board.  There is no reason we can't get creative with the game.  For instance, instead of a 20 foot long star destroyer why not assimilate the bridge of a star destroyer and a few turbo laser batteries.  Assign initiative and hull values to the relavent pieces and play co op with a friend against a star destroyer.  When in range of the turbolaser batteries, since they are stationary for the purposes of the mission, assume they automatically fire and attack according to initiative.  Roll for the turbo lasers in range along with your defense or attack dice according to the original numbers you assign. 

This is just one example of how you could play this game with cap ships.  I could go through all of the missions of the old X-wing and TIE fighter games and probably come up with 100 more missions just like that one.  The rules of this game are simple and easily adapted to a number of situations, even a coop one like what I mentioned above.

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Hmm, we're going in circles.  Looking back earlier in the thread, there's already agreement that a 22"-long CR90 is too big for the game.  A 13"-long GR-75 is probably as big as we can reasonably expect and even that is IMO way too big/expensive to be saleable.

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 It isn't the right game for large ships.

X-wing is a fighter simulator, meaning one on one, possibly slightly more.

If you're looking for mass fighter battles you want Silent Death.  If you're looking for fleet battles, you want full thrust or starmada.. All great games, and of the scale you want.

I've seen too many games driven to failure because energetic, but unthinking, fans have killed the game with absurd demands and a lack of understanding.  I do not want that to happen to this game.

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 I bought some (okay lots) of X-wing at Gencon and I even played in the tournament.  From that perspective I really wonder what upgrades will the yt-1300 have.  I can imagine a turret or two slot and a concusion missile slot, maybe even a expert pilot slot.  It might even have an upgrade slot we haven't seen yet.

If it has a turret slot, does that mean it can be equiped with a ion-cannon, or do you think it will be a differnt kind of turret slot like how proton torpedoes use a different kind of slot from concussion missiles.

What good would haveing two turret slots give you.  As the rules stand right now, it you use a secondary weapon you can't use your primary weapon.  I don't know remember if it expressly forbids the use of two secondary weapons.

I guess it sort of get back to the general ships vs specific ships for how this game works.  

I can see two possibilites for the Falcon.  One you take Han as the Pilot and then take the upgrades that you think it should have to be the falcon.  I imagine a falcon has maxed out its upgrades.  Don't take ion-cannons, not because the rules don't let you, but becasue the Falcon does't have them

The other possiblity is that if you take Han as the pilot then you get all sorts of cool special rules, representing the fact that you have the falcon, but it wouldn't have any (or at least only few) upgrade slots.  It wouldn't have a slot to represent Chewy, becasue you could put some one else inthat slot who was never the co-pilot of the falcon.  The Han pilot card would just have a special rule to represent Chewy.

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