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Bolt Weapons; too weak?

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To be fair, I also wouldn't agree with the Custodes thing, though that is admittedly just a matter of gut-feeling, as we indeed have next to no information about them other than knowing their job.

Anyways, I think we're pretty much done here. We all have our interpretations, some formed more by GW fluff, others more from various licensed products, and yet others go a whole different route incorporating their own ideas. I didn't even want to go into that much detail regarding the Deathwatch (to my own personal interests there are some other, more pressing differences), but the discussion kind of just moved there. For what it's worth, it was an interesting exchange that, I think, also showed how each of us approach the subject and explain why we have these convictions.

JuankiMan said:

Dammit, the forum completely messed up my reply. The last paragraph in each quote is actually the first paragraph of my responses. I must have offended the forum's Machine Spirit sad.gif
Trust me, I know the feeling… ;)

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Lynata said:

To be fair, I also wouldn't agree with the Custodes thing, though that is admittedly just a matter of gut-feeling, as we indeed have next to no information about them other than knowing their job.

To be fair, aside from a single Index Astartes article, and a Chapter Approved listing consisting of 3-4 units, we had no information about the Deathwatch, aside from their Job (to kill aliens and steal their artifacts).

 

I'm pretty sure No-Hero (or someone) and I said this last time you were talking about how radically divergent FFG's depiction of the Deathwatch is when compared to GW's.

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N0-1_H3r3 said:

Blood Pact said:

I'm pretty sure No-Hero (or someone)

 

It's "N0-1_H3r3", pronounced "No-one Here". If you can't remember that, just call me Nathan.

To be entirely honest, I always skip the numbers out of pure laziness over double-checking the exact characters and playing with my shift key… >.>

But I think I'll make a change with that, since in hindsight is it disrespectful, and you've proven to be one of my favourite writers around here.

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Blood Pact said:

To be fair, aside from a single Index Astartes article, and a Chapter Approved listing consisting of 3-4 units, we had no information about the Deathwatch, aside from their Job (to kill aliens and steal their artifacts).

 

I'm pretty sure No-Hero (or someone) and I said this last time you were talking about how radically divergent FFG's depiction of the Deathwatch is when compared to GW's.

And the Inquisitor RPG.

Amount of information has nothing to do with degree of deviation, though. When you have a single sentence establishing that, say, a nation's flag is red, you can't really publish a new article that says it's actually blue and proclaim it's simply an expansion of existing material, just because your article is longer. That it may be, yet by not just adding but alterating things you still created a different take on it. A variation. And people who know the original material may notice and be confused.

This alone doesn't make one vision better or worse than the other - it's just something to realise. There's way too many people still thinking that it's all meant to tie into each other.

Speaking of which, I owe you an apology. I vaguely recall we had some rather harsh debates some time ago, back when I was still believing the lie of "everything is canon", from which I have now been cured, finally. I've not forgotten the defamation, but seeing that it was I who was in error regarding the core issue of the discussion I'd still like to say that I am sorry I have wasted both our time.

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Lynata said:

 

 

And the Inquisitor RPG.

Amount of information has nothing to do with degree of deviation, though. When you have a single sentence establishing that, say, a nation's flag is red, you can't really publish a new article that says it's actually blue and proclaim it's simply an expansion of existing material, just because your article is longer. That it may be, yet by not just adding but alterating things you still created a different take on it. A variation. And people who know the original material may notice and be confused.

This alone doesn't make one vision better or worse than the other - it's just something to realise. There's way too many people still thinking that it's all meant to tie into each other.

 

 

The Inquisitor RPG had only a scant few paragraphs to say about the Deathwatch, though.

And the comparison is inaccurate. The Deathwatch still does the Inquisition's work, still divides itself operationally in Kill-Teams, still hunts aliens, they're still "red". It more like if all you knew of the Spanish flag is that it's red and yellow and then seeing the full flag with the Royal Crest on it. Yeah, they're different, but they're different takes representing the same thing, and are not mutually exclusive. Saying that they aren't meant to tie into each other doesn't mean they cannot.

Also, about red flags being blue, you might be surprised gui%C3%B1o.gif

 

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JuankiMan said:

And the comparison is inaccurate. The Deathwatch still does the Inquisition's work, still divides itself operationally in Kill-Teams, still hunts aliens, they're still "red". It more like if all you knew of the Spanish flag is that it's red and yellow and then seeing the full flag with the Royal Crest on it. Yeah, they're different, but they're different takes representing the same thing, and are not mutually exclusive.

Relativism. They are mutually exclusive when source A says the Deathwatch is subject to Inqusitional authority and source B says the Deathwatch doesn't have to give gak about them. They are mutually exclusive when source A says that kill-teams are led either by Inquisitors or DW Captains and source B says that DW Captains have a desk job in the fortress and Inquisitors only come along as guests. Hell, the whole kill-ship deal even goes straight against the Codex Astartes deal in that it gives the Space Marines a way too powerful tool if they ever decide to rebel against the Imperium again. Who builds them? Who has the command codes for these ships? What happens if their Chapter goes rogue?

No guys, this Deathwatch isn't red anymore. You may say it's orange, but it's clearly not the same shade of red. Let's be real here. You can't re-write an entire faction (or several, if we expand it to the other games) by replacing a number of traits with another idea and then claim it's still the same. By nature of how the franchise is run, it is not more "true" or "wrong" than whatever GW prints in their books, but you gotta at least stand up for the changes you made (or accept).

It's no different from the various BL novels, really. An author simply has to choose whether he wants to stick with the established material or pave his own way, so much so that it clearly deviates from what people saw before, or may have expected. Arguably doesn't make them less popular (Dan Abnett, Sandy Mitchell seem to be pretty successful), just more controversial.

JuankiMan said:

Saying that they aren't meant to tie into each other doesn't mean they cannot.

You can cherrypick from both variants, but wherever they conflict it would mean having to choose aspects of one over the other. So you'd simply end up with a third version of the Deathwatch.

 

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Another point worthy of consideration is that the Imperium is so big, so old, and has such poor communications that it's entirely possible that the Deathwatch, or anything really is run in entirely different ways in different sectors. A lot of the fluff makes it perfectly clear that the customs of any given planet are likely as not to get you lynched or burnt on another.

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Lynata said:

 

Relativism. They are mutually exclusive when source A says the Deathwatch is subject to Inqusitional authority and source B says the Deathwatch doesn't have to give gak about them. They are mutually exclusive when source A says that kill-teams are led either by Inquisitors or DW Captains and source B says that DW Captains have a desk job in the fortress and Inquisitors only come along as guests. Hell, the whole kill-ship deal even goes straight against the Codex Astartes deal in that it gives the Space Marines a way too powerful tool if they ever decide to rebel against the Imperium again. Who builds them? Who has the command codes for these ships? What happens if their Chapter goes rogue?

You can cherrypick from both variants, but wherever they conflict it would mean having to choose aspects of one over the other. So you'd simply end up with a third version of the Deathwatch.

 

 

Apparently the greatest deviation and sore point is the Deathwatch's newfound authority and believe me, I actually prefer the old version. In fact, in my games, the Deathwatch is still under Inquisitorial authority and so are the Kill-Ships. At first it was because I didn't know better, but now it's because my group and myself prefer it that way. The rest can stay because, as I already have mentioned repeatedly, I don't see the conflict there and it gives the players something to look forward to, something to aspire. Except the Battle Barges. I find that to be complete overkill.

Is that really a third version of the Deathwatch? I don't think so. I think it's still the first version but expanded, looked at more in depth.

Incidentally, the Codex Approved article has the Kill-Team led by a Captain, but then again, it was expected to be thrown in the midst of a full-scale WH40K battle. Captains don't have a "desk job" in the RPG.  The fact that they don't accompany the squad doesn't mean that they spend all the time sitting on their asses doing nothing. They kill aliens like the best of them but, at least at first, the missions assigned to the PCs tend to be of a smaller scale and usually beneath the attention of a full-blown Watch Captain, but if **** hits the fan or the Kill-Team becomes widely renowned, a Captain may accompany them into battle. Hell, one of the players might be such Captain!

And what Andor said actually makes some sense. Again, I'm not as proficient in the Deathwatch RPG background so I may be putting my foot in my mouth here, but if I remember correctly, when disaster struck the Jericho Rech, leaving it effectively isolated, the Inquisition operatives pulled out but the Deathwatch stayed, refusing to abandon their Watch and specially the Omega Vault. In a way that made them rogue, but when the portal was discovered the Imperium had bigger fish to fry and needed the aid of the Space Marines that still held out in the Reach and knew the lay of the land. As such, the Inquisition may still not have regained control and is forced into more of an alliance than the usual Oath of Servitude. Personally I don't think it is the case, but it would be an explanation for the difference.

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 Deathwatch is still under Inquistorial authority, nothing's changed just they have more autonomy than what other similar groups have. Which considering they're Space Marines it's not withstanding. 

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Lynata said:

Relativism. They are mutually exclusive when source A says the Deathwatch is subject to Inqusitional authority and source B says the Deathwatch doesn't have to give gak about them.

Your point is valid. It is, however, not relevant - you're arguing against something which doesn't actually exist.

The current background for the Deathwatch as presented within the RPG, presents the organisation as an ally of the Inquisition, formed by the mutual agreement between a variety of Astartes Chapters and representatives of the Inquisition during the Apocryphon Conclave. The Deathwatch can't just ignore the Inquisition, and while they have power and authority of their own, they are not independent operators.

The Inquisition and the Deathwatch are allies, drawn together by common purpose. The Deathwatch owes its foundation to the Inquisition, and are no less subject to Inquisitorial authority than anyone else in the Imperium - their place in the Imperium gives them freedoms not possessed by other organisations, and Inquisitors who work commonly with the Deathwatch are inclined to trust the hard-won experience of officers and veterans who have taken the Apocryphon Oath (the oath taken by all who join the Deathwatch).

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Lynata said:

Speaking of which, I owe you an apology. I vaguely recall we had some rather harsh debates some time ago, back when I was still believing the lie of "everything is canon", from which I have now been cured, finally. I've not forgotten the defamation, but seeing that it was I who was in error regarding the core issue of the discussion I'd still like to say that I am sorry I have wasted both our time.

We did come to harsh words quite a bit over the subject of Space Marines and their power level. And I apoligise for my own. It's a poor excuse, but I got qiute defensive over a (relatively) new game I found and loved, and am still bitter over some issues with the Exalted community.

I'm willing to put all that behind us though. If AluminiumWolf and I can disagree over the scope and level of Space Marines (though I still lose my patience), then so can we (as long as we can all agree that I'm right! lol).

I'll just say I really like the new Deathwatch fluff, because like I said before, what we had on the subject was really sparse. What FFG has come up with is really good, not only in that they've created a very fun game, but they're telling a great story and shining a light on a part of 40K lore than has been untouched and relatively obscure. And I would disagree over the strength of its status as canon. Between the Horus Heresy novels, 'Movie Marines', most of the video games where you play them, and of course Deathwatch the RPG, Marines are depicted as awesome soldiers, each worth dozens of regular human infantry. They were genetically crafted with the specific purpose of taking on every horrible monster the galaxy had to throw at the Imperium, and grinding them all up beneath a ceramite shod boot. And just about everyone has always said that the tabletop stats of Space Marines are a concession to game balance.

In light of the settings rules for Lasguns, the Bolter might deserve a bit of a boost though.

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 People whinged about lasguns needing a boost, now people are whinging about bolt guns, next it will be plasma guns. This is a classic example of power level creep. 

 

Bolt guns are significantly better than lasguns (on max setting):

They do more damage, have more penetration, are more reliable, and have more clip. They are superior in nearly every aspect. If they were only slightly better in one or two areas then you might be excused for making the assertion…but that is not the case. 

It's like moving next to an airport and then complaining about the noise. If you boost the basic gun in power of course it will close the power gap between it and the premium gun, but enhancing everything doesn't accomplish anything sensible. Why not give everyone 15,000 hp and have weapons do 200-1000 damage while you are at it?

 

If you really think the bolt gun is not "better enough" compared to the lasgun then readjust the lasgun again.

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