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Magus Black

Of Las Weapons and Settings

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Alright so as to not let the Weekly Update be completely cluttered with cries for variable settings for all las-weapons I figure it would be prudent to start a thread before it gets out of hand.

 

Now I think its fair to say that there is quite a bit of celebration in finally getting the Variable Settings for the lasgun and I also agree that more las-weapons should be given that setting.

So I going to start this out with the question of: Which Las-Weapon’s SHOULDN’T get this setting?

While this may be a strange question to ask first I think it’s a good idea to figure out which weapons of the Las Category shouldn’t be given the Variable Setting so that its crystal-clear as to which kind of weapons should be able to.

To start the list of weapons that shouldn’t be given the Variable Setting is the Laslock.

The Laslock is by all means a “poor mans lasgun” its Unreliable by default; has only clip of 1; and has crap for range. By design there would be no way to make such an inferior weapon and give it such an advanced technology as the settings, as that would be kind of an oxymoron…plus the variable settings cost extra-ammo which this gun doesn’t have.

The Triplex Pattern Lasgun is the second on my list. This gun went from being terrible to being a one-stop shop for most Guardsmen as its has so much versatility that this weapon may become a common Favored Based Weapon for many regiments. Its staggering versatility is also why I say it shouldn’t have the variable settings too, it simply makes the weapon way too good; and unless specifically worded it would work with all three settings including the badass “Incineration” mode.

Now this may be only a biased opinion really, some may think that with the otherwise restrictive natural of the Guard that the idea of a “Super” lasgun being a tool of champions is a necessity…and I suppose they would have good point. This one is one is a total Y.M.M.V. one, so what do you think?

Hellguns (err Hot-Shot lasguns) and their pistol counterpart if only because they are suppose to be set up to maximum efficiency by default, but I have something to add to those two (see Hellguns below).

The Lascannon is another though mostly different reasons than above. For starts the weapon is weapon built to attain maximum power and penetration and so idea that it can be set for even MORE POWER is a bit absurd. For more pragmatic reasons the weapon only has 5 shots before it needs to be reloaded and unless your sitting on a stockpile of power packs this lose of ammo is not going to be at all practical. Following the lack of ammo is the problem of scale as each Lascannon shot deals 5d10+10 damage and has a penetration value of 10 as well, any adjustments would have to scale dramatically in order for it to be useful in terms of cost-per-shot and that would likely end in a weapon that is of Game Breaking level.

The Multi-Laser is somewhat like the laslock in that what the weapon is and what it does is the determining factor. The Multi-Laser is (almost exclusively) a tank mounted weapon and its purpose is mostly anti-infantry and suppression fire, taking that into consideration its design requires it to be able to put out a large amount of firepower over long periods of time. Following the Variable Settings this would come conflict with the weapons nature as the weapon loses the ability to sustain fire for more than a few rounds before reloading, so the more powerful shots don’t make up for lack of use.

To show a clearer example why, set on overload a Multi-Laser shot on autofire (its ONLY Rate of Fire) uses up 20 rounds for 5 shots and can only sustain that for 5 rounds. In contrast a normal Multi-Laser can sustain fire for 20 rounds.

Of course, again, Your Mileage May Varry

===

Hellguns

As I said above I don’t think Hellguns and Hellpistols shouldn’t get the Variable Setting, I did not however say that the don’t need some fine tuning themselves.

As I’m sure many Storm Trooper Players have found the Hellgun is a strangely underperforming weapon for those that spearhead assaults and find themselves knee-deep in trouble. Part of the reason is that while having a 7 penetration is nice, most (if not all) of your foes will have an Armour Value of 4 or 5 at best and will usually have Unnatural Toughness to supplement it, and over penetration has no effect on the Toughness part of a creatures Total TB. In fact a fair number of creatures, particularly Orks, rely on their high Toughness and Unnatural Toughness Rating in order to survive for long and therefore don’t care how much penetration your weapon actually has.

At first I never had much problem until I started getting my ass-kicked by Orks and daemons and with the impending DOOM of Hive Fleet Kraken looming on the horizon it finally dawned on me that the Hellgun wasn’t up for close-quarters shooting against tough targets.

Surprisingly the solution has already been provided for us all by the Triplex Pattern Lasgun, more specifically its ‘incineration’ mode. I’ve been thinking about what this setting was suppose to represent for most of the day, the other two are obvious (the standard lasgun and longlas), and after staring at it and the armoury for a while it finally came to: it was Hellgun-Setting, one for taking down real tough enemies.

And so instead of going into specifics why I think this is a useful trait for the Triplex and whatnot I’m skipping to the chase.

The Hellgun and Hellpistol should have Proven (5) and Felling (4), which should solve quite a bit of problems for most Storm Trooper types.

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 Okay, my opinion:

Which guns should have Variable Settings:
Lasgun
Las Carbine
Bullpup Lasgun
Las Pistol (Possibly but not needed)

On Hellguns:
They should have: Proven (3) and Felling (2)

Other Lasweapons:
They are fine…

On the Ammo Backpack:
It should hold atleast 200 shots for Hotshot/Hell Weapons and 400 for other las weapons

In Addtion:
All M36 Lasguns should be able to mount a bayonet and thus have the weapon attachement.
 

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Magus Black said:

The Triplex Pattern Lasgun is the second on my list.
You are really suggesting that the ONLY lasgun that is - in GW's version of the setting - actually supposed to have a variable charge setting should be one of the few that doesn't get it in FFG's world?

Mirror universe! :D

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Santiago said:

 Okay, my opinion:

Which guns should have Variable Settings:
Lasgun
Las Carbine
Bullpup Lasgun
Las Pistol (Possibly but not needed)

On Hellguns:
They should have: Proven (3) and Felling (2)

Other Lasweapons:
They are fine…

On the Ammo Backpack:
It should hold atleast 200 shots for Hotshot/Hell Weapons and 400 for other las weapons

In Addtion:
All M36 Lasguns should be able to mount a bayonet and thus have the weapon attachement.
 

 

I support everything within this post except for Hot-Shot weapons getting that much from a backpack.

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Lynata said:

Magus Black said:

The Triplex Pattern Lasgun is the second on my list.

You are really suggesting that the ONLY lasgun that is - in GW's version of the setting - actually supposed to have a variable charge setting should be one of the few that doesn't get it in FFG's world?

 

Mirror universe! :D



Well according to the Infantrymans Primer the M36 also has variable setting and is capable of fully automatic fire…

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Santiago said:

 Okay, my opinion:

Which guns should have Variable Settings:
Lasgun
Las Carbine
Bullpup Lasgun
Las Pistol (Possibly but not needed)

On Hellguns:
They should have: Proven (3) and Felling (2)

Other Lasweapons:
They are fine…

On the Ammo Backpack:
It should hold atleast 200 shots for Hotshot/Hell Weapons and 400 for other las weapons

In Addtion:
All M36 Lasguns should be able to mount a bayonet and thus have the weapon attachement.
 


I'm Commander Shepard and this is my favourite store in this thread….well except for the Ammo Backpack which should be handled somewhat differently though I'm not sure how exactly. Personall I'll go with unlimited magazines due to magic self recharging capacitors and reloading means switching to a different capacitor bank while the previous one recharges.

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Santiago said:

Well according to the Infantrymans Primer the M36 also has variable setting and is capable of fully automatic fire…
I know; I've been "campaigning" for variable lasgun settings using the Primer as a source myself, years ago for Dark Heresy. At that time, I still held the erroneous belief that this franchise actually had something like a canon. Both the 5E Imperial Guard Codex as well as GW's Inquisitor RPG contradict the Primer on this, though.

I'm not entirely sure, but it could be that the author of Black Library's IIUP was going by the TT's 3E rulebook, whose (pretty awesome) weapon list depicted a "standard use" lasgun, which indeed had a charge slider, see the image here. The term "M-Galaxy" was then shortened to "M-G pattern" in the Primer, and apparently this is now what everyone thinks the "M36 Lasgun" is.

Now, considering that there is no such thing as a canon for 40k, and since this RPG's material already deviates from the studio books in so many other occasions, it doesn't really matter. Speaking purely in terms of mechanics, I even think OP has a very good point with his observation. I just found it amusing how this development, going on over a number of small steps, almost seems to come "full cycle" … resulting in the exact opposite of what it says in GW's own books. ;)

Do carry on, gentlemen.

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I actually feel like the Laspistol shouldn't have variable settings, since normally they operate as a last-ditch back-up weapon and don't need to vary the oomph, as it were. If nothing else, unlike many mentions of changing lasgun settings, I don't off-hand know of anywhere in codexes or BL novels where people adjust laspistol power levels. I could very well be wrong, though, so feel free to correct me. 

I agree that all 3 of the primary weapons (bullpup, standard, and Triplex) should have it, but other weapons such as the lascannon, longlas and hellgun should not, since they're optimized for maximum damage as-is. 

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Santiago said:


Okay, my opinion:

 

Which guns should have Variable Settings:
Lasgun
Las Carbine
Bullpup Lasgun
Las Pistol (Possibly but not needed)

On Hellguns:
They should have: Proven (3) and Felling (2)

Other Lasweapons:
They are fine…

On the Ammo Backpack:
It should hold atleast 200 shots for Hotshot/Hell Weapons and 400 for other las weapons

In Addtion:
All M36 Lasguns should be able to mount a bayonet and thus have the weapon attachement.

So the only lasgun we disagree upon that ‘should’ get the Varitable Setting is the Longlas, just curious my I ask why?

-

As for the Hellguns its been, rather widely, debated that single dice weapons don’t get much benefit from low Proven Ratings and I have been one of those that have went against the train of thought that Proven was useless for Basic Weapons, albeit for it to be a solid middle Rating (5) which seems to of caught on.

And…well since the Triplex is a somewhat weaker version of 3 different weapon (Lasgun, Longlas, and Hellgun) all together dare I ask why the Hellguns would be weaker than it in its chosen field?

A agree on the clarification of exactly how many shots the Ammo Pack gives to the Hellweapons in comparison to what it gives to ‘normal’ las weapons.

…And correct me if its been changed somewhere but Melee Attachments (Bayonets) can be added to any Basic Weapon, the Lasgun included.

Lynata said:


Magus Black said:
The Triplex Pattern Lasgun is the second on my list.You are really suggesting that the ONLY lasgun that is - in GW's version of the setting - actually supposed to have a variable charge setting should be one of the few that doesn't get it in FFG's world?
Mirror universe! :D

I know, irony right.

But its just a personal opinion really I just think that being able to jump damage and penetration by 2 for a gun that can shot semi-auto, snipe, and blow-the-ever-living-hell out anyone at moments notice is a bit much.

Again personal and bit pragmatic.

Santiago said:


Well according to the Infantrymans Primer the M36 also has variable setting and is capable of fully automatic fire…


Ah yes, Automatic Lasguns. Supposedly lasguns that capable of fully-automatic fire as dictated by the Infantryman’s Primer.
 

 

hqdefault.jpg

We have dismissed these claims.

 

 

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Magus Black said:

I know, irony right.

 

But its just a personal opinion really I just think that being able to jump damage and penetration by 2 for a gun that can shot semi-auto, snipe, and blow-the-ever-living-hell out anyone at moments notice is a bit much.

Again personal and bit pragmatic.

Oh, I agree! That's why I thought that the lasguns were actually good the way they came out in the very first version of the book. The Triplex had the settings, the M36 had semi-auto and the Long Las had the range advantage. Neat and balanced line-up. But now people have been campaigning for the M36 to get power settings as well, so obviously the Triplex had to gain another perk or it would become redundant, … and now we're here.

Bonus points for the Councillor meme, btw. ;)

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 I wouldn't personally give the Longlas Variable Setting because it already have Felling (4) and because of its special ammo (overcharge pack).
It would make the Overcharge pack alomst useless.

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despite making me unpopular i would limit the variable settings to the M36 and maybe the bullpup

till now there is no real advantage in taking the M36 over the lascarabine ( one more shot on semi auto while most of our group only fire in single shot for +10 and a little more range while in most of the fight is wihtin 50 m ) but it´s al lot heavier.  absolutly no piont in spending 5 Points of req. for that.

So give the M36 a advantage over the carabine version to make it the main weapon of the guard for a reason

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 Well, as the lore and FFG's supplements have clearly indicated over the years, there are as many lasgun models as there are worlds that manufacture them. The lasguns presented in OW for reasons of space and simplicity don't have auto-fire, but there are lasgun variants that do (the assault lasgun, for example) but they tend to trade range, reliability and/or efficiency for their increased RoF.

Also it may be said that there is no such thing as cannon, but I see nothing wrong with consistency, and in the TT hellguns are F3 and AP3. Not heavy hitters but capable of punching through power armor with ease, so I find them to be fine as they are.

And in my opinion, the best rendition of an infantryman's ammo pack is the one that appears in Ascension. It weighs 15kg and holds 300 rounds of las ammo, though hellguns chew through it at double the rate, and cannot power heavy las weapons. 

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Oh, I agree! That's why I thought that the lasguns were actually good the way they came out in the very first version of the book. The Triplex had the settings, the M36 had semi-auto and the Long Las had the range advantage. Neat and balanced line-up. But now people have been campaigning for the M36 to get power settings as well, so obviously the Triplex had to gain another perk or it would become redundant, … and now we're here.
Bonus points for the Councillor meme, btw. ;)

 

Well its too late to go back now, the ship is sailing and the most of crew wont change course.

Lynata said:


Bonus points for the Councillor meme, btw. ;)

Turain Councilors are always good for these kind of things.

Santiago said:


I wouldn't personally give the Longlas Variable Setting because it already have Felling (4) and because of its special ammo (overcharge pack).
It would make the Overcharge pack alomst useless.

That’s agreeable I guess.

But that’s also why I think Hellguns should be Proven (5), Felling (4). A Triplex set to ‘incineration’ mode using a Hot-Shot Charge Pack is absolutely devastating!

Damage 1d10+4 (minimal 9 Damage) Penetration 4 [special:] Proven (5), Felling (4), Tearing.

In fact, despite the fact that the Hot-Shot Charge Pack is suppose to be like a shot from a Hellgun, the Hellgun doesn’t even have Tearing… so where does it come from!?

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Magus Black said:


I wouldn't personally give the Longlas Variable Setting because it already have Felling (4) and because of its special ammo (overcharge pack).
It would make the Overcharge pack alomst useless.

 

That’s agreeable I guess.

But that’s also why I think Hellguns should be Proven (5), Felling (4). A Triplex set to ‘incineration’ mode using a Hot-Shot Charge Pack is absolutely devastating!

Damage 1d10+4 (minimal 9 Damage) Penetration 4 [special:] Proven (5), Felling (4), Tearing.

In fact, despite the fact that the Hot-Shot Charge Pack is suppose to be like a shot from a Hellgun, the Hellgun doesn’t even have Tearing… so where does it come from!?

Hot-Shot/Hellguns should be D10+4 Pen 4 S/3/6 w/ two variable settings. Penetration mode (+3 Pen & +2 dmg) 2xammo & Felling mode (Proven [5], Felling [2], Unreliable] x3 ammo. This way they can go against heavily armored or light vehicles & tough enemies but at cost of ammo. 

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As they have given variable settings to the M36, they should give them to both the carbine and bull-pup as well.  Seems only fair as they are all "rifles" of one sort or another.

The triplex is special enough allready, it doesn't need any more love.

Las-pistol, not sure myself, so pass on that question.

All other las weapons are fine without it, mostly for the reasons outlined in the first post.

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 I think the Triplex is ok as it is now, as a DMR special weapon, with the standard lasgun being the normal weaponry issued. The other standard lasguns need the variable setting, as they are built on the same design as the M36, as does the laspistol. The carbine lasgun could be modified to an assault lasgun, dropping the variable setting in favor of automatic fire option.

On the Hellgun, I think they are ok as is, although a setting for anti-infantry like Manyfist proposed would be nice. It shouldn't however have automatic fire; it's not a weapon made for spraying or suppression fire. They also need to stop calling them Hot-Shot lasguns, as the Hot-Shot packs are another thing entirely, and it only confuses everyone.

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I believe hot-shot comes from the table top, as to not have the 'new' Str3 AP3 imperial guard stomr trooper weapon being confused with the str3AP5 hellguns the storm troopers in the Witch hunters codex had.

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"Hot Shot lasguns" used to be a weapon in 2nd edition. They were lasguns with a hotshot backpack. This increased their power to essentially be the same as a boltgun (Strength 4 and a -1 Armour Save Modifier). These disappeared in 3rd edition with the appearance of the "hellgun", a strength 3 ap 5 weapon ("Woot! Such an awesome upgrade compared to the standard lasgun!"). Then they gave storm troopers AP 3, and, as you say, they had to call them something different to differentiate them from hellguns elsewhere. Hot-shot lasguns made a return. However, I disagree with FFG decision to directly translate them from the table top, making newer hellguns (which is all they were) Pen 7. AP 3 was purely an attempt to give them a tabletop game role (theoretically killing power armour guys). I don't think it was really a signal that hellguns were meant to punch through power armour like it was paper.

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Well regardless of what they isn’t much of issue now, its whether it does its job in ‘short range’ combat; and the answer is still no.

 

Now that most of the lasguns (except the ones mentioned on the first page) have variable settings the Hell/Hot-shot lasgun/pistol is certainly going to need a boost. Since the Storm Trooper now has his armour back he has his endurance back but he’s still lacking in teeth, and most Players may rather use heavy-weapons instead of the his traditional weapon because it still doesn’t help him in close-quarters (how many guys are wearing power armour anyways?).

The most pragmatic Players will simply take the Triplex Pattern Lasgun because it would allow them to act in several theaters of war: standard gun-fight; long-range combat; close-quarters shooting.

And admit it saying something like: “Alright boys, its time for INCINERATION MODE!” just sounds cool.

*waves hand* Moving past that there are a fair number of ways this could be remedied, perhaps too many to close from really, here are a few suggestions. All the below examples are for the lasgun version.

[High Damage, Mid-AP, No Special]
Example: Damage: 1d10+7 AP: 4 Special: -

In this example the gun has one hell of a punch for a basic weapon and has just enough AP to ignore the standard Guard Flak Armour. This is done by simply trading in AP for damage and while heavier (or better made) amours will still provide a some protection the overwhelming damage means even creatures with High Toughness and Unnatural Toughness cant simply ignore it like they can now.

[standard Damage, Standard AP, Tearing]
Example: Damage: 1d10+4 AP: 7 Special: Tearing

This one is a simple one that doesn’t actually solve the problem entirely, but isn’t an option I can simply ignore (no matter how much I want to), and its simple to implement as well. The weapon retains its decent damage and high AP and gets the ability to roll twice and take the better result for damage, which may increase by a small amount. But I don’t favor this because it still doesn’t really solve the problem Hellguns have against Tough targets, that being that they have low Armor more often than not, since it doesn’t change the fact that the weapon still has to beat a Total Toughness Bonus that is almost always still very high after Armour (The average Ork Boy has a TB of 6 and the Terror Cats of “Against the Savages” has a TB of 8!).

[standard Damage, Mid-AP, Proven (5), Felling (4)]
Example: 1d10+4 AP 4 Special: Proven (5), Felling (4)

This one I favor because it relatively equal to the Incineration mode of the Triplex, while its damage isn’t overwhelming and its AP will generally only ignore standard Flak Armour its special abilities make up for it where it counts. As I mentioned in another post, and to a lesser degree in the above example, a fairly large number of enemies have Armour between 2-4 (with only a handful that have higher) and have both high Toughness Scores and the Unnatural Toughness Trait (generally at Rating 2). This configuration means that on average you are still able to defeat most armours and despite modest damage can still deal with enemies that rely on those attributes to survive consistently…after all your if you don’t kill them real soon they’re going to rip your face off.

[Less Damage, Lesser-AP, Proven (5), Tearing, Felling (4)]
Example: 1d10+3 AP: 3 Special: Proven (5), Tearing, Felling (5)

This ones an odd duck because it lowers most of the parameters of the gun in order for it to gain multiple abilities. Like the above example it provides a rather reliable average damage due to Proven and its Felling quality reduces the longevity of Unnaturally Tough enemies, even though against foes without that trait it comes out weaker. Surprisingly it has proven (no Pun!) to be still capable of a weapon due to the fact that since you roll two dice and always take the highest roll (which can be a 10) and the Proven quality means that no matter how bad you roll you still do a minimal of 8 damage.

Still, if it walks like a duck; quacks like a duck; it must therefore be a duck.

A4SOAH0CAN7DC9YCA4NU1MDCAH1MBG7CAYR.jpg
I didn’t get into what the weapon might be like if either Remove Semi-Auto (making it single shot) or add Full-Auto, so if anyone thinks they can think of a good one please post it.

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Just as the Hellgun struggles against high Toughness-low Armor opponents, the Triplex Phall underperforms against high Armor-low Toughness targets. Sporting an unmodifiable Pen 0, the only chance it has against heavy armor is to set for Accurate mode and hope for the best. If he can tackle the weight, the best bet for a Storm Trooper would be to carry both, and thus be ready for almost everything. Except for high Toughness-high Armor foes like Space Marines or Ork 'Ard Boyz, but that's why you dragged the Heavy along.

 

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Overcharge Pack: Reduce Capacity to 75% [round down] instead of 50%.

 

Settings:

High [+1 Damage, +1 Penetration, Felling[1], 2 ammo per shot]

Overload [+2 Damage, +2 Penetration, Felling[2], 4 ammo per shot, Lose reliable or gain unreliable unless Good Quality or better]

 

Weapon Specifics:

Pistols only have access to the High Setting.

Bullpup and Carbine Patterns add 10m to their range when fired on High or Overload

Long-Las Patterns lose no reliability when fired on Overload.

Heavy Weapons do not have an Overload Setting.

 

Hellguns: Drop Pen to 6, add Felling[2]. They do not have an Overload Setting.

Hellgun High: +2 Damage, Felling[2], 3 ammo per shot. Gains Recharge.

This gives us total hellgun output of 1d10+6 Pen 6 Felling[4] on high. It burns through standard carapace, and averages 1d10+2 wounds against a space marine. A full volley could in fact down one with a bit of luck, rather consistent with the tabletop

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Kiton said:

This gives us total hellgun output of 1d10+6 Pen 6 Felling[4] on high. It burns through standard carapace, and averages 1d10+2 wounds against a space marine. A full volley could in fact down one with a bit of luck, rather consistent with the tabletop

Actually, at 1d10 (1d10-2 if hit on the chestplate) straight damage, a full volley will most likely down a space marine without needing much luck, which would make me wonder why bother with plasma weaponry in the first place. The tabletop is like it is for game balance reasons and its regularly inconsistent with its own fluff because of it. 

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Perhaps my suggestion is a little much for Hellguns, although I'd have to say that going back to the Dark Heresy days of "why would anyone ever take this plasma" is something that needs fixing quick on those poor weapons ends itself.

Still, Hellguns should have a little something. At maximum output, whether there's different settings or there isn't, it should at least have a little more impact than it does. 1d10+4 Pen 6 Felling[2] is probably all right; its substantially more effective than a regular lasgun against armour, and to a lesser degree, against other forms of resilience too, without being much more damaging against a naked cultist [+4 vs +3].

We'd go from dealing 1 damage to non-chest parts of marines on a 6 [8 otherwise] when we manage to even hit and not get dodged, to doing so on a 5.

As for Plasma, any weapon meant to crack Terminator Armour that starts mucking about on an Armour-Monger's Carapace should not have been seen since the old Dark Heresy versions we all love to avoid. An OW Plasma Gun, right now, would be lucky to inflict a point of damage versus a TB8 Terminator [in fact it does so on a 10, so it at least gets to commit RF]. Compare that to a Rogue Trader's, or BC Cultist model [i hate to bring different games in on it like that, but the bloodletters haven't changed since BC's stats, and chances are plenty of targets are going to be roughly the same as well.

Its easier to fix a few weapons than to redo all the critters, right?

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