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Week Six Update

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'Nother thing; Ok, so poeple were crying about how the storm trooper sucks (for some reason) etc etc…but I play one now, and frankly, having a WS aptitude was a good thing; they had access to afordable Parry and WS related talents.

 

Now he's an over armed, over armoured, less-than-flexible Weapon specialist, rather than a jack of all trade assault soldier as I saw him.  Hell, the weapon specialist still got Weapon skill accessible, right?  So they actually get BS at the same price, and WS related talents and attributes buys are now CHEAPER for the weapon spec. than the Storm trooper.

Enjoy your self made one-trick poney guys, but I'd rather keep using WS instead of finesse; I'd rahter like my storm troopers well trained than just  being better equipped guardsmen.

As for the armour, who cares, it's a good quality light carapace, so still AP6 on the first shot.  Since he's is no longer filling the assault role (being yet another shooty guy) giving him ST armour won't help him, as he is worse in melee now than a weapon specialist, so giving him better armour to hold longer won't be a good bought since the first goal now it to NOT get in melee.  At all.  Leave this for the Sarge and Weapon Spec.  Stick behind cover, gets a free AP4 cover helping your AP5-6 armour and respectable toughness bonus

And now with variable lasgun settings, the ST is no longer worth it since your regular Trooper Exandible now has a weapon that can be, damage-wise,  2-3 points under what a BOLTER can do.  I'd rahter have no pen, but autofire thankyouverymuch

 

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Eradico Pravus said:

 With regard to the Stormtrooper change, how about replacing Offense instead of Weapon Skill with Finesse?

Because Offence covers quite a bit of what a ST actually should be doing; those really cool, fancy, well trained combat manuvers that the average guardsman just isn't going to spend time with.

 

Personally, I'd rather see the WS aptitude be changed to the Defence aptitude. That way, parry is still cheap, and they become a tanky jack of all trades.

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KommissarK said:

Eradico Pravus said:

 

 With regard to the Stormtrooper change, how about replacing Offense instead of Weapon Skill with Finesse?

 

 

Because Offence covers quite a bit of what a ST actually should be doing; those really cool, fancy, well trained combat manuvers that the average guardsman just isn't going to spend time with.

 

Personally, I'd rather see the WS aptitude be changed to the Defence aptitude. That way, parry is still cheap, and they become a tanky jack of all trades.

 

Hmm..I'll ahve to check it, but Defense for WS may be a good switch….not to mentiona cess to other talents, like step aside, and such

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Lupus House said:

Variable still needs expanding.

Glad to see the Grav-chutes change make it.

Really love the extra rules for Krak Grenades.

although I had heard that inflicting 0 damage but triggering RF against tanks didnt deal 1 pt of structural damage, seems like that needs fixing.

this weeks was great, keep going.

Lupus House said:

Really love the extra rules for Krak Grenades.

although I had heard that inflicting 0 damage but triggering RF against tanks didnt deal 1 pt of structural damage, seems like that needs fixing.

Not entirely sure that's quite enough, actually. A Krak Grenade only works against the Rear Armor of vehicles lighter than a baneblade: Against any armour value of 30 or higher, it can't deal damage, and as such, as per RF-Vs-Vehicles rule, cannot apply righteous fury rolls either. Given the grenade has no blast radius, it may be a little behind its missile bretheren.

Sentinels may be affected on any facing.

A Basilisk, Chimera or Hellhound can be affected on the side or rear armour, though the latter's sides require a minimum roll of 19 on 2d10.

All Russ Variants are only vulnerable to this in the rear armour to varying degrees.

Baneblades are quite simply immune.

 

Krak missiles can actually puncture and RF a Baneblade's frontal armour, if it rolls its absolute maximum damage of 38 Pen 8, for one structure and RFs. It certainly isn't likely, though.

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I positively FLOORED by the idea of giving up ANY Secondary Aptitude for the Storm Trooper! So you loose Weapon Skill, big deal Storm Troopers are mostly about shooting anyways.

 

To remind you if any of your Regiment Aptitudes match your Specialization Aptitudes then you can select another one from the Primary Aptitude Section (Weapon Skill, Ballistic Skill, Strength, Toughness, Agility, Intelligence, Willpower, or Fellowship) you cant, however, ever acquire a Secondary Aptitude (Offense, Finesse, Defense, Knowledge, Psyker, or Social) since they are limited only to your Specialization and are rigidly set.

So you can ‘buy back’ Weapon Skill if your Regiment has either Ballistic Skill, Agility, or Toughness as Regiment Aptitudes (in fact there are three Training Doctrines that do just that) and would have 3 Full Aptitude Sets and extremely cheap access to every martial trait available (Weapon Training for example has Finesse for it Secondary Aptitude).

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Storm Trooper Carapace is, no surprise, the Storm Trooper's SIGNATURE WARGEAR in the tabletop.  Them not having it as at least a starting option doesn't just make no sense, it makes a kind of eldritch anti-sense.

 

Furthermore, Storm Troopers are, on the tabletop, much more shooty than choppy.  This new Aptitude spread is exactly what they should have had all along.  They can still get some close combat skills via the Offense and Agility aptitudes, but they don't emphasize that to the degree they emphasize awesome shooting.

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Jukkaimaru said:

Storm Trooper Carapace is, no surprise, the Storm Trooper's SIGNATURE WARGEAR in the tabletop.  Them not having it as at least a starting option doesn't just make no sense, it makes a kind of eldritch anti-sense.

 

Furthermore, Storm Troopers are, on the tabletop, much more shooty than choppy.  This new Aptitude spread is exactly what they should have had all along.  They can still get some close combat skills via the Offense and Agility aptitudes, but they don't emphasize that to the degree they emphasize awesome shooting.

 

Here's news you can use.

-The armour is carapace armour (NOT "storm trooper carapace") so light enforcer carapace is still valid.

-Sure they got 1 BS over every other guardsmen, but they each got a pistol and a close combat weapon, giving your basic Storm trooper 2 attacks in melee, therefore way more choppy than guardsmen.

-This here's a RPG not TABLE TOP.  If you want to have you Storm troopers like the TT, go play TT.

Else with that logic, guardsmen have no variable lasgun setting, nor is there a medic in infantry squads, nor can the Sarge have any type of lasgun or las carabine EVER, also no helmet whatsoever, nor can an operator be with infantry ever (maybe mingle together at the base, but if their vehicle gets destroyed during a battle, they auto-die as well) since Heavy support/fast attacks are not troops choices, Tech-Priest is also on his own, Orgryns and Ratling comes in groups of 3 minimum, Guardsmen also do not start with krak or smoke grenades or anything clsoe to a Standard kit, no!  Their gear is limited to:

-Flak Armour

-Lasgun (Sgt gets laspistol instead, Commissar gets bolt pistol instead)

-Close combat weapon

-Frag grenades

Any other gear is not representative of the table top and therefore, FFG must do its absolute best to remove those affront to the TT from their book ASAP because it makes no sense, it makes a kind of Eldritch anti-sense.

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To be fair, it's not that surprising that fans of the setting as described by GW would assume to find it portrayed in a similar manner elsewhere, too. Lots of people still assume 40k actually has something like canon and consistency. Obviously, this also has little to do with any rules in the tabletop, but with how certain units are presented in the material.
If we really want to drop any limitations originating in the TT, we may as well have Orks and Eldar in the squad. This is an RPG, after all! ;)

Jukkaimaru: The good thing about a pen&paper RPG is that you can easily houserule the things you deem unfitting for your group's interpretation of the setting. Regardless of how this product eventually ends up in the shelves, this is an option I'd advise you to keep in mind.

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Yes, god forbid that an RPG based off a tabletop wargame offer loadouts that reasonably match what units carry in that wargame.  *rolls eyes*  Enforcer carapace is stuff Arbites enforcer teams use.  I'd think that Storm Troopers would have access to something a step up from SWAT gear, even well made SWAT gear.

 

Variable setting lasguns and extra grenades are more of a fluff thing than a mechanics thing--they're attested in a lot of books and descriptions.  This same fluff tends to describe Storm Troopers as being effective in melee--and hell, you have Agility, Offense, and Finesse as aptitudes, meaning you will get the now much more reasonable single ap discount on a LOT of melee talents!--but SUPERLATIVE at range.

 

Incidentally, am I the only one having trouble getting posts to go through from the Quote option?  It's rather annoying.

 

Lynata:  Yeah, I know.  I plan on doing just that for my games should it not actually get changed.  Probably as an optional alternate to the good craftsmanship Light Carapace (and I'm also gonna reduce the weight on Light Carapace so there's a reason somebody might wish to take it instead of the heavier armor).

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Kiton said:

Really love the extra rules for Krak Grenades.

 

although I had heard that inflicting 0 damage but triggering RF against tanks didnt deal 1 pt of structural damage, seems like that needs fixing.

 

Not entirely sure that's quite enough, actually. A Krak Grenade only works against the Rear Armor of vehicles lighter than a baneblade: Against any armour value of 30 or higher, it can't deal damage, and as such, as per RF-Vs-Vehicles rule, cannot apply righteous fury rolls either. Given the grenade has no blast radius, it may be a little behind its missile bretheren.

Sentinels may be affected on any facing.

A Basilisk, Chimera or Hellhound can be affected on the side or rear armour, though the latter's sides require a minimum roll of 19 on 2d10.

All Russ Variants are only vulnerable to this in the rear armour to varying degrees.

Baneblades are quite simply immune.

 

Krak missiles can actually puncture and RF a Baneblade's frontal armour, if it rolls its absolute maximum damage of 38 Pen 8, for one structure and RFs. It certainly isn't likely, though.

I'm totally ok with krak weaponry not being able to damage a Baneblade with anything except a very lucky shot. Krak weaponry has always been anti-light armour, and should rightly have difficulty dealing with anything as tough as a Lemen Russ, let alone a Baneblade. That's what the melta line of weaponry is for.

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 Why not rename "light carapace armor" with "Storm Trooper Armor", reduce the weight by 5kg, rename the previous "Storm Trooper Armor" to "Heavy Carapace Armor" and add 5kg to th armor.

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 For some bizarre and alien reason, some people got into their heads that Storm Trooper Carapace should be the carapace worn by Storm Troopers. Madness!

Also, Storm Troopers are quick in - quick out commando units, not frontliners, so it's more fitting they have Offense rather than Defense. Offense still makes them more competent in melee than most guardsmen, but Finesse enhances their role as highly trained troopers rather than stand-ins for the Ogryn.

And yes, Light Carapace should be lighter than regular carapace for obvious reasons, but 5kg lighter makes it weigh less than Guard's Flak. I'd say leave it at 13kg.

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Braddoc said:

So yeah- spend 3 points in a doctrine to get maybe a choice of aptitude, yeah…no. Plus you need to convince the tohers that it's in thier best regimental intrest to do so.

You're kidding, right? With the advancement system the way it is, there is absolutely nothing as valuable as extra aptitudes. Any skill or talent you might get with another doctrine is chump change compared to the lifetime savings of an aptitude. Any equipment is just a requisition check you don't have to roll. Big deal.

Any choice other than an aptitude during regiment creation is choosing RP over power gaming. If that's a hard sell to your group … then bless them all.

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Andor said:

Braddoc said:

 

So yeah- spend 3 points in a doctrine to get maybe a choice of aptitude, yeah…no. Plus you need to convince the tohers that it's in thier best regimental intrest to do so.

 

 

You're kidding, right? With the advancement system the way it is, there is absolutely nothing as valuable as extra aptitudes. Any skill or talent you might get with another doctrine is chump change compared to the lifetime savings of an aptitude. Any equipment is just a requisition check you don't have to roll. Big deal.

Any choice other than an aptitude during regiment creation is choosing RP over power gaming. If that's a hard sell to your group … then bless them all.

Comparing  a single attribute cost reduction compared to high end gear, bonus to logictics roll, more mags/grenades/rations, hated talents…my players generally prefer to be able to face adversity than to be able to get a better stats; having WP cheaper is worth nothing if you can't face off an enemy because you're under-equipped or lack a piece of gear.  We know the system, we've been playing it for a while, I try to see it as a new player would see it; make a Weapon Specialist, or a Storm trooper which is a Weapon Specialist with better gear but crappier fellowship. Asking it is answering it.

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Braddoc said:

Andor said:

 

Braddoc said:

 

So yeah- spend 3 points in a doctrine to get maybe a choice of aptitude, yeah…no. Plus you need to convince the tohers that it's in thier best regimental intrest to do so.

 

 

You're kidding, right? With the advancement system the way it is, there is absolutely nothing as valuable as extra aptitudes. Any skill or talent you might get with another doctrine is chump change compared to the lifetime savings of an aptitude. Any equipment is just a requisition check you don't have to roll. Big deal.

Any choice other than an aptitude during regiment creation is choosing RP over power gaming. If that's a hard sell to your group … then bless them all.

 

 

Comparing  a single attribute cost reduction compared to high end gear, bonus to logictics roll, more mags/grenades/rations, hated talents…my players generally prefer to be able to face adversity than to be able to get a better stats; having WP cheaper is worth nothing if you can't face off an enemy because you're under-equipped or lack a piece of gear.  We know the system, we've been playing it for a while, I try to see it as a new player would see it; make a Weapon Specialist, or a Storm trooper which is a Weapon Specialist with better gear but crappier fellowship. Asking it is answering it.

An extra aptitude is not a reduction for a single attribute. It's a reduction to that attribute, and every single skill and talent related to it. Getting Iron Will, for example, cheapens WP, which is crucial unless you wanna crap your pants any time a daemon looks your way, Interrogation and 9 different talents, including the extremely valuable Jaded or Fearless, and if you already have Willpower you can choose another aptitude and get other all-around discounts. Intelligence, for example, cheapens an impressive 12 different skills. That's quite likely thousands of XP saved along the road.

Choosing any other doctrine is essentially choosing short-term benefit over long-term power.

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I don't have my books, but I checked it yesterday, sure parry cost more than its supposed to now and we gain no new skills with finesse, but we also have to pay more for 'simple' talents now, like swift attack, ambidextrous, sure strike, gain some shooty talents, just to better push the weap. spec on the side line (since at same talents, the more powerful gun will win, and the ST's got Pen7 on his gun at base, not to mention carapace armour), making a support specialist that's clouding the regular specialist.

People wanted Ratling, they got Ratlings, they want a human sniper.  They wanted storm troopers, they got it, now they want a better, elite version of the guardsmen; and if you can't stomach the changed, just fiddle around with Reg. gen, get everyone to take die Hard so I can have double Toughness, and take WS.  If I don't take an aptitude at Reg gen, then I'm a silly-billy 'role player' who can't play for **** it seems. 

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Andor said:

Braddoc said:

 

So yeah- spend 3 points in a doctrine to get maybe a choice of aptitude, yeah…no. Plus you need to convince the tohers that it's in thier best regimental intrest to do so.

 

 

You're kidding, right? With the advancement system the way it is, there is absolutely nothing as valuable as extra aptitudes. Any skill or talent you might get with another doctrine is chump change compared to the lifetime savings of an aptitude. Any equipment is just a requisition check you don't have to roll. Big deal.

Any choice other than an aptitude during regiment creation is choosing RP over power gaming. If that's a hard sell to your group … then bless them all.

Although in all seriousness, its not really even hard "RP." The doctrines are highly mechanical, and otherwise only offer a vague fluff explanation as to what they actually mean. A unit could be described as having a "Favoured Foe" when they actually take "Die-Hards." The training doctrines are very abstract, and RP wise, a regiment can be described as anything.

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Braddoc said:

 

I don't have my books, but I checked it yesterday, sure parry cost more than its supposed to now and we gain no new skills with finesse, but we also have to pay more for 'simple' talents now, like swift attack, ambidextrous, sure strike, gain some shooty talents, just to better push the weap. spec on the side line (since at same talents, the more powerful gun will win, and the ST's got Pen7 on his gun at base, not to mention carapace armour), making a support specialist that's clouding the regular specialist.

People wanted Ratling, they got Ratlings, they want a human sniper.  They wanted storm troopers, they got it, now they want a better, elite version of the guardsmen; and if you can't stomach the changed, just fiddle around with Reg. gen, get everyone to take die Hard so I can have double Toughness, and take WS.  If I don't take an aptitude at Reg gen, then I'm a silly-billy 'role player' who can't play for **** it seems. 

Okay, now I'm getting the impression that you're being contrary on purpose. Finesse doesn't cheapen any skills, true, but it cheapens Agility, which is crucial for a melee specialist. Also, it cheapens a total of 20 talents, 9 of which have their prices completely unchanged from before because their primary aptitude is WS, notably Sure Strike, Swift and Lightning Attack.

Yes, the very same talents you're complaining cost more now. They do not.

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JuankiMan said:

Braddoc said:

 

 

I don't have my books, but I checked it yesterday, sure parry cost more than its supposed to now and we gain no new skills with finesse, but we also have to pay more for 'simple' talents now, like swift attack, ambidextrous, sure strike, gain some shooty talents, just to better push the weap. spec on the side line (since at same talents, the more powerful gun will win, and the ST's got Pen7 on his gun at base, not to mention carapace armour), making a support specialist that's clouding the regular specialist.

People wanted Ratling, they got Ratlings, they want a human sniper.  They wanted storm troopers, they got it, now they want a better, elite version of the guardsmen; and if you can't stomach the changed, just fiddle around with Reg. gen, get everyone to take die Hard so I can have double Toughness, and take WS.  If I don't take an aptitude at Reg gen, then I'm a silly-billy 'role player' who can't play for **** it seems. 

 

 

Okay, now I'm getting the impression that you're being contrary on purpose. Finesse doesn't cheapen any skills, true, but it cheapens Agility, which is crucial for a melee specialist. Also, it cheapens a total of 20 talents, 9 of which have their prices completely unchanged from before because their primary aptitude is WS, notably Sure Strike, Swift and Lightning Attack.

Yes, the very same talents you're complaining cost more now. They do not.

 

My bad, but like I said, I don't have my book here right now.  Ambidextrous is BS/WS aptitudes, so we lost there, that's for sure…

Also "….Agility, which is crucial for a melee specialist….."

Again, that switch of aptitude made the ST a ranged specialist, not a melee one; the only way Agility is important now is that  a storm trooper must now rely on dodge to get out of harm's way rather than the more potent Parry. 

 

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Braddoc said:

 

 

Braddoc said:

My bad, but like I said, I don't have my book here right now.  Ambidextrous is BS/WS aptitudes, so we lost there, that's for sure…

Also "….Agility, which is crucial for a melee specialist….."

Again, that switch of aptitude made the ST a ranged specialist, not a melee one; the only way Agility is important now is that  a storm trooper must now rely on dodge to get out of harm's way rather than the more potent Parry. 

 

 

Whether Parry is more potent than Dodge is a matter of debate. Parry is indeed easier to raise through equipment, but Dodge is crucial for the melee specialist because you cannot parry whatever return fire the enemy might throw at you while you're closing in into melee. Also, until you get a weapon with a power field you really don't wan't to try and parry an enemy power weapon. Also, some attacks cannot be parried at all while almost everything can be dodged.

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