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CarnageCJB2

Community Opinions on Two Rule Questions…

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 My group and I were playing this past weekend (with myself as OL), and came across two different potential issues in the rules…

Firstly, nowhere could any of us find a rule stating that drinking a potion requires an action.  If drinking a stamina potion is "free", it can lead to a character being able to run across the board and back with a single turn.  We had one of the high move heroes end up with two stamina potions do the following:

  • move action
  • fatigue to move
  • attack action
  • stamina potion
  • fatigue to move
  • stamina potion
  • fatigue to move

Now, this could be countered with the use of traps, but it seems a bit "much"…

 

The process by which the hero ended up with two potions is the second question…

  • Hero A has a potion and is separated from Hero B by a single square
  • Hero C has a potion and is a few squares away from both
  • Hero C takes a double move action
  • Hero C can then move into the square between A and B, while still having some move left
  • Hero C uses the "free" trade ability to take the potion from A
  • Hero C uses the "free" trade ability to give both potions to B
  • Hero B then has their full turn, as well as two potions
  • Hero A still has a full turn as well

 

Anyone see something I missed?  Any thoughts, questions, suggestions, etc?

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Depends on the potion, some cost an action to drink some don't, as indicated on the card. There is no general rule for potions, thus it's not listed in action options (special action nonwithstanding).

Also remember that digging up those stamina potions generally did cost an action at some point previously in the quest. So yes, one can do some well-earned shenanigans with them.

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It's magic!

You could always house rule the equivalent of the OL card limit to prevent multiple uses of a potion or other ability during a turn:

"Pg.16: Two Overlord cards with the same name cannot be played on the same target in response to the same triggering condition."

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I just noticed something that might imply you can't use an item the same turn you receive it in trade (or maybe even when acquired by searching):

"Pg.7: Hero Turn Summary / 2. Equip Items: If the player wishes to equip different items, he must do so during this step."

"Pg.11: Hero players indicate which items are not equipped by flipping them facedown or placing them under their Hero sheet."
"Cards that do not contain at least one of these icons can be equipped without restriction."

"Pg.15: A hero must still wait to equip any cards he receives until the start of his next turn."

Since flipping a Search Card item (like a potion) means something else, the hero would tuck it under their Hero sheet to indicate that it hadn't been equipped yet.  On their next turn it could be equipped and become usable.

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Carnagecjb said:

 My group and I were playing this past weekend (with myself as OL), and came across two different potential issues in the rules…

Firstly, nowhere could any of us find a rule stating that drinking a potion requires an action.  If drinking a stamina potion is "free", it can lead to a character being able to run across the board and back with a single turn.  We had one of the high move heroes end up with two stamina potions do the following:

  • move action
  • fatigue to move
  • attack action
  • stamina potion
  • fatigue to move
  • stamina potion
  • fatigue to move

Now, this could be countered with the use of traps, but it seems a bit "much"…

 

The process by which the hero ended up with two potions is the second question…

  • Hero A has a potion and is separated from Hero B by a single square
  • Hero C has a potion and is a few squares away from both
  • Hero C takes a double move action
  • Hero C can then move into the square between A and B, while still having some move left
  • Hero C uses the "free" trade ability to take the potion from A
  • Hero C uses the "free" trade ability to give both potions to B
  • Hero B then has their full turn, as well as two potions
  • Hero A still has a full turn as well

 

Anyone see something I missed?  Any thoughts, questions, suggestions, etc?

You didn't miss anything.  That's exactly how the printed rules work.

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I have a feeling we'll see an errata that makes using a potion an action. I'm sure they did it originally to let heroes heal without wasting an action and being at a disadvantage, but did not take into account the way players would find to abuse the system. But, agreed, it's all correct.

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Triu said:

"Pg.15: A hero must still wait to equip any cards he receives until the start of his next turn."


 

 

On second thought, if someone passes you something on their turn, you will get a chance to equip it at the start of your turn.  This wouldn't prevent the OP's scenario.  You could still house rule something about not being able to equip two of the same item [unless they occupy different "slots"].  {That last part would let you equip 2 one-handed weapons, but not two of the same potion.}

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Triu said:

Triu said:

"Pg.15: A hero must still wait to equip any cards he receives until the start of his next turn."


 

 

On second thought, if someone passes you something on their turn, you will get a chance to equip it at the start of your turn.  This wouldn't prevent the OP's scenario.  You could still house rule something about not being able to equip two of the same item [unless they occupy different "slots"].  {That last part would let you equip 2 one-handed weapons, but not two of the same potion.}

Potions also lack the equipment icons (or so I recall).  My group has taken this to mean that they do not need to be equipped.

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So if you hand over an exhausted item to a fellow hero that had not activated this turn, that hero could equip it and refresh it during his turn, and effectively pass it over to the next adjacent hero? Or is it correct to let all heroes equip and refresh before taking turns?

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Zarrack said:

So if you hand over an exhausted item to a fellow hero that had not activated this turn, that hero could equip it and refresh it during his turn, and effectively pass it over to the next adjacent hero? Or is it correct to let all heroes equip and refresh before taking turns?

The Refresh and Equip phases are both clearly marked on the Hero Activation cards.

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I beg my pardon for not being completely lucid in my questioning and for being a bit dull. Can one hero exhaust an item and the pass it over to another not yet activated hero which on their turn refreshes the item, exhausts it and pass it on to another not yet activated hero?

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wootersl said:

I have a feeling we'll see an errata that makes using a potion an action. I'm sure they did it originally to let heroes heal without wasting an action and being at a disadvantage, but did not take into account the way players would find to abuse the system. But, agreed, it's all correct.

Considering they ran into this exact same problem in first edition, and ended up needing to errata potions to be "one [of each type] per turn," I'm a little bit surprised that they made the same mistake again in second edition, particularly in regards to Stamina potions.  That alone would lead me to believe they intentionally changed it back in second edition, although it still sounds like it's as broken as it ever was.

Perhaps they were thinking the new treasure rules would limit the number of stamina potions that were likely to be floating around in any given quest.  So heroes can use this sort of (admitedly broken) tactic, but hopefully not all the time.

I won't take any position on the passing rules questions just yet, but I'm certainly interested to see how that discussion unfolds.

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Zarrack said:

I beg my pardon for not being completely lucid in my questioning and for being a bit dull. Can one hero exhaust an item and the pass it over to another not yet activated hero which on their turn refreshes the item, exhausts it and pass it on to another not yet activated hero?


"Pg.15: At any point during his move action, a hero may trade any number of … cards with an adjacent hero."

I haven't found anything to preclude it, as long as the first two heroes perform move actions to alllow the trades.  The way things are written, you have to start your turn with an item to refresh or equip it.  You can't move, trade for an item, and use it on your own turn.

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Steve-O said:

wootersl said:

 

I have a feeling we'll see an errata that makes using a potion an action. I'm sure they did it originally to let heroes heal without wasting an action and being at a disadvantage, but did not take into account the way players would find to abuse the system. But, agreed, it's all correct.

 

 

Considering they ran into this exact same problem in first edition, and ended up needing to errata potions to be "one [of each type] per turn," I'm a little bit surprised that they made the same mistake again in second edition, particularly in regards to Stamina potions.  That alone would lead me to believe they intentionally changed it back in second edition, although it still sounds like it's as broken as it ever was.

Perhaps they were thinking the new treasure rules would limit the number of stamina potions that were likely to be floating around in any given quest.  So heroes can use this sort of (admitedly broken) tactic, but hopefully not all the time.

I won't take any position on the passing rules questions just yet, but I'm certainly interested to see how that discussion unfolds.

Thats EXACTLY what I think happened.  There's no way to buy potions, no way to get them any other way, the only way to get a potion now is through one of those search tokens - which are finite and one shot.

If memory serves, there are only 3 stamina potions in the whole deck too, so AT WORST you'll be able to do the abusive move once per map.  I honestly don't think there's a problem that needs fixing here.

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Zarrack said:

 

I beg my pardon for not being completely lucid in my questioning and for being a bit dull. Can one hero exhaust an item and the pass it over to another not yet activated hero which on their turn refreshes the item, exhausts it and pass it on to another not yet activated hero?

 

 

There is a difference in the game between exhausted cards and flipped-down cards. Exhausted cards are turned sideways to denote that they have been used this turn. During the refresh, a hero would refresh exhausted cards and not flipped down cards (i.e. search cards such as potions)

 

As far as the "use and pass on" issue, the following goes: Yes you can exhaust a card and pass it to the hero adjecent to you, and that card would be exhausted. Being passed on to the next player, would allow him to refresh it, if and only if it's exhausted and not flipped down.

 

Search cards (which contain potions) do not say "exhaust card to do X", they say "Do X and then flip card down". The reason you keep these cards as opposed to discarding them is two fold:

A) Remove current boon from the Search deck, hence place a limit on the available boons in the adventure

B) Each of these cards has a money value on it which is used in the campaign. Hence, a search card has dual purpose on the campaign Descent: one off-itme boon and money at the end of it. This is demonstrated by the Campaign phase of the game where Search cards are returned to the deck and money is awarded to the players.

 

Furthermore any card that has the "arrow symbol" next to it, requires an action to perform. If that symbol is not there, then the card can be used without consuming an action. Also the rules explicitely say that some cards can be used for a one-time effect (as listed on the card) :

After using a Search card, the player flips the card facedown and keeps it in his play area (see “Search Card Anatomy” on page 10).

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I don't have the rulebook here to point out the page, but i remember that it explicitly said that heroes cannot spend more fatigue than his characteristic in the same turn for ANY reason.. so i guess that if a player uses all his fatigue to move, he won't be able to use up more even if he drinks a stamina potion.

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Now I really wish I had the rulebook on hand, because I was just about to suggest something similar to "the player cannot expend more stamina than his maximum stamina in a given turn for any reason".  But if it's a baseline mechanic of the game, all the better.

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I just referenced the rules and there is nothing in there about t the amount of fatigue that can be suffered in a single turn.  It does specifically state you can't suffer fatigue beyond your maximum stamina.  If you have recovered fatigue, via a potion for instance, you are no longer at your maximum stamina and thus can suffer additional fatigue up to your maximum stamina.

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Unclechawie said:

If you have recovered fatigue, via a potion for instance, you are no longer at your maximum stamina and thus can suffer additional fatigue up to your maximum stamina.

I understand it that way too.

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Unclechawie said:

I just referenced the rules and there is nothing in there about t the amount of fatigue that can be suffered in a single turn.  It does specifically state you can't suffer fatigue beyond your maximum stamina.  If you have recovered fatigue, via a potion for instance, you are no longer at your maximum stamina and thus can suffer additional fatigue up to your maximum stamina.

That's exactly how the rules work.  You can't have more fatigue tokens on your hero sheet than the hero's Stamina rating at once, however, if you're able to recover fatigue (ie: remove tokens) somehow, then you can suffer more.

 

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