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Emperor Castaigne

Some thoughts on Regiment Creation

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JuankiMan said:

WittyDroog said:

 

 And so what if the whole group has fancy camo armor? They have to be stationary to use it properly which, as I've said before, is a gamble in many of the games I've played in. It'll serve you no good against melee targets that engage you, or indiscriminate artillery and blast weapons, and a skilled shooter can still hit you despite the penalties if properly trained and equipped. All the option does is change how the regiment fights (opting for a stealthy and stationary approach) and how the GM will deal with it. Its hardly a game breaker, just means some tactics will be harder.

 

 

As I already mentioned, it is true that it isn't that great against melee foes, but the problem is that only a skilled shooter with superior training and equipment has any kind of chance to hit them. Enemy guardsmen? Useless. Ork shootas? Their accuracy was atrocius before, now their chance to hit is zero. Tau fire warriors? Even making standard attacks they are as accurate as orks.

And it goes the other way too. If the squad faces a foe wearing camaleonine, their only tactical option is to try and rush into melee (and it has to be melee, camaleonine inflicts -30 to hit even at point-blank), hoping that they can deflect enemy bullets with the bullets already lodged in their face. The players usually won't have indiscriminate artillery on hand and blast weapons are bound to miss and scatter harmlessly.

I think camaleonine is indeed a game breaker because it kills any challenge a firefight might have for the side that has it, and punctuating every firefight with an artillery bombardment that forces the players to move their butt will stop being serious quite quickly. Also the players will start to wonder if every single ranged enemy suddenly sports a telescopic sight or has the Marksman talent, the only two reliable ranged counters I can think of.

Maybe I'm thinking too much in terms of real world and not enough in game terms, but I think that there is one easy way out of this pond: Frag grenades.

When a character lobs a frag he doesn't need to aim it at the target, but just to a spot next to it. So if the squad has a general idea of where their camalaoline-wearing opponents are they can lob a few frags over and see what happens. Since they can target terrain features in the area the bonus from camaleoline doesn't apply. Also if the opponents dodge they will lose the camaleoline, if they stay still they will be showered with metal fragments all over.

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WittyDroog said:

 My retort is that if you, GM or Player, are allowing your opponent to remain stationary while they shoot you then you need to rethink your strategy. I'm not sure about your games, but its not like mine have six rounds of guys standing across the hall from each other just shooting until the other team dies.

Yes, you need to rethink your strategy because a whole wide aspect of combat has become non-viable, namely ranged combat. After all, if staying still makes you almost untouchable, then why move? Lobbing frags might work, but you need to get to lobbing range, at which point the enemy will be throwing hell at you at short range. Flamers have the same problem. Flanking is a no-go, it's just as hard hitting from the side as from the front. Also, being stationary doesn't mean being inactive. The cloaked guys will still fire, use supression, their own grenades and generally try to disrupt whatever might be attempted with near impunity. 

I still claim is a game breaker because one side has a whole slew of tactics to choose from while the other is incredibly limited in what they can do to have a fighting chance.

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The "old" Chameleoline Cloak rules are IMHO better for snipers as when you (a Ratling Sniper) are shooting from your Extreme Range (negating penalties with a Telescopic Sight or Marksman talent) with a Long Las (>450m) or a Sniper Rifle (>600m), you simply can't be targeted, even by enemy snipers, as the cloak makes you out of range. Yay for fluffy snipers — you'll need a mortar or several to silence a skilled sniper in an entrenched position.

That said, under current rules, just lying down in the open like 10m away from my squad mates (so melee fighters can't reach me easily) means -50 to hit me (-30 for Cloak, -10 for lying, -10 for being a Ratling), while I receive a minimum of +10 for Half Aim, +10 for Standard Attack, +10 for Accurate, +10 for Red Dot Sight and +10 for Short Range for +50 to hit on every shot. Add Custom Grip for +55. This is just too unfair, I should need to actively avoid being shot at (make Stealth tests to duck under cover or set up a far away shooting position with clear view) instead of getting a free pass to blow heads and appendages with minimum additional XP expenditure. If everybody has cloaks… well, just standing & shooting isn't viable, but if the squad has a Stormtrooper, Ogryn or Sergeant and a Medic, they can effortlessly tank excessive damage while their squadmates shoot the enemies to bits, impossible to hit themselves.

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 Oh come on, "standing and shooting" isn't a wide breath of battlefield tactic. I mean you could argue the same case for a lot of encounters designed to combat a particular fighting style. Melee-centered characters are going to have to rethink attacking incredibly tough and heavily armored targets, frontline troops will need different weapons than their lasguns if a tank is rolling towards them, you can't just "sit there" when you're being bombarded by mortars and other explosives, nor can you sit in a spot while stealthy assassins approach you from behind.

In short, yes you'd be very hard to hit if you're standing still shooting back, but that's just one aspect of battle and it can be very easily avoided by simple change in tactics. Enemies and players should not be diluted into such a simpleton tactic simply because the game would get boring if you just sat there.  Like I said if you're concerned that the players are too powerful with the cloaks then just use a different approach. Think outside the box, as they say.

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WittyDroog said:

 

 Oh come on, "standing and shooting" isn't a wide breath of battlefield tactic. I mean you could argue the same case for a lot of encounters designed to combat a particular fighting style. Melee-centered characters are going to have to rethink attacking incredibly tough and heavily armored targets, frontline troops will need different weapons than their lasguns if a tank is rolling towards them, you can't just "sit there" when you're being bombarded by mortars and other explosives, nor can you sit in a spot while stealthy assassins approach you from behind.

In short, yes you'd be very hard to hit if you're standing still shooting back, but that's just one aspect of battle and it can be very easily avoided by simple change in tactics. Enemies and players should not be diluted into such a simpleton tactic simply because the game would get boring if you just sat there.  Like I said if you're concerned that the players are too powerful with the cloaks then just use a different approach. Think outside the box, as they say.

 

 

Incredibly tough and armored targets, tanks, mortar barrages and stealthy assasins approaching you from behind should be relatively rare occurences for an infantry squad (also, why are the assasins included? if they're stealthy you don't know they're coming so you wouldn't have reason to move anyways). They happen, sure, but 70% what they're gonna be doing is going toe to toe with other line infantry. Also, you say it can be "easily avoided with a change of tactics", so I'd like to hear it. What change of tactic would turn the table on a cloaked foe that cannot be easily countered by said foe from their almost untouchable position? Note that I'm implying that the camo cloak is a hindrance to you, e.g. you're normally a ranged combatant. If you're an ogryn you don't need any change of tactics at all.

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Virtus said:

The "old" Chameleoline Cloak rules are IMHO better for snipers as when you (a Ratling Sniper) are shooting from your Extreme Range (negating penalties with a Telescopic Sight or Marksman talent) with a Long Las (>450m) or a Sniper Rifle (>600m), you simply can't be targeted, even by enemy snipers, as the cloak makes you out of range. Yay for fluffy snipers — you'll need a mortar or several to silence a skilled sniper in an entrenched position.

That said, under current rules, just lying down in the open like 10m away from my squad mates (so melee fighters can't reach me easily) means -50 to hit me (-30 for Cloak, -10 for lying, -10 for being a Ratling), while I receive a minimum of +10 for Half Aim, +10 for Standard Attack, +10 for Accurate, +10 for Red Dot Sight and +10 for Short Range for +50 to hit on every shot. Add Custom Grip for +55. This is just too unfair, I should need to actively avoid being shot at (make Stealth tests to duck under cover or set up a far away shooting position with clear view) instead of getting a free pass to blow heads and appendages with minimum additional XP expenditure. If everybody has cloaks… well, just standing & shooting isn't viable, but if the squad has a Stormtrooper, Ogryn or Sergeant and a Medic, they can effortlessly tank excessive damage while their squadmates shoot the enemies to bits, impossible to hit themselves.

Also factor in weather, lighting conditions,  & cover. Also like to point out that cloak shouldn't really protect you against scopes like prey sight. The number one rule on a battlefield for sniper is don't shoot twice in same spot. Evn if they can't see you, there's probably etter chance of hitting you if you stay in same spot.

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 Why should that be rare? Not every war is "we both meet halfway on a battlefield" like were fighting in the Napoleonic era. War is often met with changing conditions and unique challenges that a group must overcome. Sure if you're taking part in some huge trench war of thousands of men maybe its a bit more I shoot You shoot but there are many different types of battle you can use for this game. Maybe I'm just unique in that I try to craft challenges that actually keep players on their toes, but I'm just applying basic encounter design from any RPG that sometimes compliments the players strengths but also tests their weaknesses as well.

That said war has shown precedence that even the best preparations and the advanced technology can be of little use for a clever enemy.

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WittyDroog said:

 Why should that be rare? Not every war is "we both meet halfway on a battlefield" like were fighting in the Napoleonic era. War is often met with changing conditions and unique challenges that a group must overcome. Sure if you're taking part in some huge trench war of thousands of men maybe its a bit more I shoot You shoot but there are many different types of battle you can use for this game. Maybe I'm just unique in that I try to craft challenges that actually keep players on their toes, but I'm just applying basic encounter design from any RPG that sometimes compliments the players strengths but also tests their weaknesses as well.

That said war has shown precedence that even the best preparations and the advanced technology can be of little use for a clever enemy.

I said "relatively rare". Things like a rampaging battle tank or a murderous Chaos Space Marine Berserker should be things like boss fights, not the bread and butter. And as I already said, punctuating half the firefights with a saturation barrage will get silly and old quickly. Also, if you tailor make encounters to counter the camo (and you need to because most regular enemies are nowhere near prepared to deal with a cloaked enemy) the players will feel cheated after spending their good creation points.

Also, I can't help to notice that you didn't answer my question.

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 But it doesn't even have to be something grand, you can get around entrenched units with relatively simple means. If you find it difficult to shoot the target, don't engage it from the front, instead move to a position where they're forced to leave their position either by flanking, moving through cover that they can no longer shoot you in, or simply hang tight and make the enemy come to you. If the enemy is staying put as well then rethink how you could flush them out, you could lob grenades, use flame weapons, or make a called shot with a blast weapon that strikes the ground near them (negating the advantage of the cloak). I mean try to think like an actual military unit and how they would handle the situation, because this kind of thing isn't unheard of.

Chaos Marines or a Russ would certainly be a boss fight, but what about a mob of crazed cultists that surround you with mass numbers? Or maybe fast vehicles or bikes that can easily skirt to your position? Winged tyranids swooping down and attacking you? Coming up with ways to combat a unit that turtles up isn't hard even with relatively basic means and not bringing in the Baneblades. As far as making the cloak useless that's why I specifically mentioned making encounters that both compliment their strengths and challenge their weaknesses. You could set up an encounter where the players attack a group of surprised Chaos Renegades and get into a war of attrition. Seeing that they can't effectively strike the players without losing too many members, the renegades call in for support which could be in the form of another unit coming in from a flank, a couple of mortar shells, even releasing a pack of wild dogs or something. The cloaks aren't useless, and you shouldn't deny the players the chance to use them, but at the same token you also shouldn't let them sit still ALL DAY and make them adapt to changes on the field. Oh no I need to move for a round or two my doctrine points are UTTERLY WASTED. The reason these cloaks have that stipulation that they must remain still is to give it a drawback as opposed to a flat bonus that's always active, so it shouldn't be a factor in every Encounter. Just as you say that being shelled every encounter would get tiresome, so would having every encounter just be standing and shooting every round until one side dies. 

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I have to ask, but what's the point of a drop regiment if we don't have Valkyrie stats to go with them?  I know RT has them, but RT's vehicles are not balanced against OW's vehicles, which, until the recent nerf, were balanced against DW.  Now with the nerf it's someplace in between…

 

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BaronIveagh said:

I have to ask, but what's the point of a drop regiment if we don't have Valkyrie stats to go with them?  I know RT has them, but RT's vehicles are not balanced against OW's vehicles, which, until the recent nerf, were balanced against DW.  Now with the nerf it's someplace in between…

 

We don't have aircraft because the developers have a limited space and they didn't want to use it on all the rules that would be required for proper handling of aircraft. You're just going to have to wait for the Only War supplement book where they put all the stuff that couldn't fit into the Core rulebook, just like Dark Heresy: The Inquisitor's Handbook, Rogue Trader: Into the Storm and Deathwatch: Rites of Battle.

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 Yeah I'll can it and agree to disagree about the cloaks.

As far as drop troops I figured the point was to actually drop them so the Valk isn't that critical in game terms. But that's maybe because I always figured their transport as being the mission's start and end point by dropping and retrieving. The Valk isn't part of a Drop Troops standard kit so one could say the drop troops might not always be riding in one. I can understand why someone would want the stats in order to have the transport providing air support but I always figured it the transport would drop guys off and then fly back to grab more troops instead of serving as another asset like a Russ is to an Armored Regiment.

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WittyDroog said:

 Yeah I'll can it and agree to disagree about the cloaks.

As far as drop troops I figured the point was to actually drop them so the Valk isn't that critical in game terms. But that's maybe because I always figured their transport as being the mission's start and end point by dropping and retrieving. The Valk isn't part of a Drop Troops standard kit so one could say the drop troops might not always be riding in one. I can understand why someone would want the stats in order to have the transport providing air support but I always figured it the transport would drop guys off and then fly back to grab more troops instead of serving as another asset like a Russ is to an Armored Regiment.

 

Well, I was going by the fluff, admittedly, but usually they drop the troops and then fly CAS.  The Elysian drop troops, for example, have very limited heavy weapons, and depend on Valks and Vultures as support, according to IA and BL novels.

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 Unless you want the players to specifically control a Valk I would just leave the air strikes to thematics. Like maybe the players can call for some support when they're in a pickle and you roll a couple of heavy weapon hits (Or not, at say they're tied up), maybe an interesting us of Command or Logistics?. You get the picture though, run them more thematically since the ship isn't under their direct control.

Actually now that I think of it, are Valks and other Imperial flyers actually part of the Guard or are they called in from the Imperial Navy? I don't remember.

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WittyDroog said:

Actually now that I think of it, are Valks and other Imperial flyers actually part of the Guard or are they called in from the Imperial Navy? I don't remember.

 

Technically anything that flies is Navy.  However, it gets sort of muddled in this case, as valks, like chimeras, are attached at the squad level (chimera drivers and Recon  belonging to a different company then the footsloggers they're attached to, according to IA and BL fiction).  So, no, they would loiter around the target in case the squad they are attached to need air support or extraction from a hot LZ until required to return to rearm and refuel.  Or, at least, that's how IA 3 seems to paint it.  Further, Valks are identified by the aircraft's number in the regiment they are attached to, not thier wing designation, as other aircraft are.

A single Elysian Drop Regiment has over 138 Valks if IA is to be believed, with additional airstrikes called in from much more suitable platforms, such as the Lightening Strike Fighter and Marauder.

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