Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
icevvind

Overruns

Recommended Posts

What do you think that goes first, guys, supressions by a overrun or reactions?

 

I'll propose a situation: I declare a charge with my Luther to an enemy unit at the begining of my movement. i'm out of reaction range, but my movement will get me into it to make a melee attack. I move over the enemy unit, so they will have to separate from me 1'' and my movement ends. Surely the enemy would want to react to me, but the overrun could place some supression tokens on the unit so it cant react.

What do you think? the supression comes first? Or the reaction?

The rulebook doesnt states at wich point the overrun takes place. Its just says " the moving vehicle rolls combat dice…. blah blah" so if its the "moving vehicle" its while its moving not when its stopped.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you are legally allowed to react/ IE you the enemy starts a movement or ends a movement within 12" of your unit and your unit does not have a reaction or suppression token already on them, then your reaction would always come first. You would not be suppressed because you would have reacted to move out of the overrun. Effectivly your guys saw the walker coming and as any sane person got the F&$k out of the way. The only way overruns work is if you either choose not to react or your already suppressed or used your reaction for that round.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 Denied is correct

Page 34, Reaction Restrictions rule reads…

"A unit must declare its reaction either directly before, or directly after the enemy action is resolved (depending on the triggering action)."

Which at first, may lead one to believe you may only react prior to the Overun movement based on the word, "resolved" above. But, the parenthetical statement is followed by this rule being broken down to Move and Attack Actions separately.

Quoting the parts which are relevant to this discussion…

  • Reacting to a Move Action requires: "The reacting unit must declare and execute its reaction either before the activating unit moves or after it has completely finished moving."
  • Reacting to an Attack Action requires: "The reacting unit must declare its reaction before the activating unit rolls Combat Dice to resolve the attack."

Based on the Reaction Restriction rules, if you react before the Overun, you're free to get out of the way and avoid the nasty Suppression monster or try to shoot and kill it. If you choose to wait (whether because you want to use CC or Grenades or you're hoping for a back arc opportunity), then you must declare your reaction at the end of your opponents move, but before they roll their Combat Dice. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

An overrun is by definition not an "attack action". "When a Vehicle moves through a unit of Soldiers it causes overrun". "Being overrun can cause a unit to be suppressed". The suppression marker(s) are placed as "a Vehicle moves through a unit of Soldiers" as opposed to after the move action is resolved. Combat dice for suppression are rolled as part of the move order during the overrun. At the end of the move order, the unit is suppressed and may not react.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

slainex said:

An overrun is by definition not an "attack action". "When a Vehicle moves through a unit of Soldiers it causes overrun". "Being overrun can cause a unit to be suppressed". The suppression marker(s) are placed as "a Vehicle moves through a unit of Soldiers" as opposed to after the move action is resolved. Combat dice for suppression are rolled as part of the move order during the overrun. At the end of the move order, the unit is suppressed and may not react.

 

You'r not reacting to it as an attack action you are reacting to it as a move action. You are allowed to react to move actions as well as per the reaction rules. So your opponent states I am moving my vehicle and doing an over run. Since no vehicle could pull this off unless they are within 12" of your unit to begin with you simple state cool I will be reacting to that by moving out of the way now I move my units and oh look you have nothing you can overrun now. GG. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 It is interesting to me that the rule for overrun effects friendly or enemy.  So what you guys are saying is that an enemy can react to the overrun after it has already happened, and a friendly cannot.  Friendly units cannot react to other friendlys.  If a friendly unit cannot react to the overrun and would be forced to possibly take suppression tokens, it should be the same for the enemy.  And I can picture in my head situations where an overrun of friendly and enemy units could happen at the same time.  The topic interested me enough to ask the question via email, Ill post the response when I get it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

slainex said:

An overrun is by definition not an "attack action". "When a Vehicle moves through a unit of Soldiers it causes overrun". "Being overrun can cause a unit to be suppressed". The suppression marker(s) are placed as "a Vehicle moves through a unit of Soldiers" as opposed to after the move action is resolved. Combat dice for suppression are rolled as part of the move order during the overrun. At the end of the move order, the unit is suppressed and may not react.

/humorous thought - By whose definition is it not an attack action?  Have you ever had to dodge an AFV?  Trust me, several tons of steel trying to stomp you into the ground is not exactly a friendly act. gui%C3%B1o.gif

Okay, all kidding aside…

I started my original post to conclude exactly the same point you did. But the more I dug into the rules to prove it, the more I couldn't. What finally convinced me to change my conclusion is if you notice, the rules capitalize game terms.  One such term is, "Combat Dice." I believe an Overun is both a Move Action and an Attack Action, because it requires you to roll Combat Dice. Even if that doesn't hold water, based on the wording of Overun and Reactions, I had to conclude you could react at the end of the Overun's Movement. Even if it's only a Move Action, the rules state, "The reacting unit must declare and execute its reaction either before the activating unit moves or after it has completely finished moving." It doesn't say when the Move Action is completed, just the actual movement.

Which led me to point to another example, because it reminded me of the rule where in which a Unit gets suppressed by an Attack Reaction at the end of its Movement Action's movement, prior to its Attack Action during a declared Move/Attack Action in the Unit phase.

Suppression and Reactions rule, Page 47 reads…

"Suppressed units cannot make reactions. If a unit is activated and becomes suppressed by a reaction from an enemy unit, it still completes its activation as normal. Units determine their number of actions at the beginning of the activation (after rolling to remove Suppression markers) and do not, therefore, lose an action if suppressed during their activation."

Since a Reaction is declared at the end of the active units movement during a Move Action, and/or before any Combat Dice are rolled, it must get to react either way, Rules as Written. 

I will state however, having dodged a couple of AFVs (one friendly, one not), I hope it gets ruled or erratted the other way (how I first interpreted it, and you play it). The only, "Reactions" IRL to an AFV Overun is to kill it or run before it gets to you, or get squished by doing nothing. sorpresa.gif

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Some of you are missing the point of my question.

I give my axis platoon the lightning war upgrade, so some of my walkers gains fast.

I march/charge against some enemy units, starting my movement out of the 12'' reaction range. Then i move 18'' towards the enemy, overruning it while my movement has not ended, so, as it seems the enemy unit will receive some supression via the overrun before they legally can react (movement has not ended) and then i finish, whit the unit alredy supressed. Is it right?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was looking at this and think, RAW, the unit would not be able to react after the move if they received a supression from an overrun. The unit is not entitled to declare a reaction before you started moving and you have to finish your movement (which could caused supression) before they can declare a reaction.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

icevvind said:

Some of you are missing the point of my question.

I give my axis platoon the lightning war upgrade, so some of my walkers gains fast.

I march/charge against some enemy units, starting my movement out of the 12'' reaction range. Then i move 18'' towards the enemy, overruning it while my movement has not ended, so, as it seems the enemy unit will receive some supression via the overrun before they legally can react (movement has not ended) and then i finish, whit the unit alredy supressed. Is it right?

In this case I believe that suppression might take effect before the enemy could react to it. 

The overrun unit should be suppressed before they can react to the end of the movement.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 I got an answer from Zach.

There is a question on the forums about vehicle overruns.
 If a vehicle starts its movement more that 12" away and moves through enemy soldiers,
even though during movement they were forced out of the way, can they react at the end of movement
to get out of the way before suppression dice are rolled? 

 

No. Suppression is rolled first. If the Vehicle rolls to suppress the unit and no HIT results are scored,

the unit may then React normally to the end of the Vehicle’s movement.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is what Zinger5656 posted:

There is a question on the forums about vehicle overruns.
If a vehicle starts its movement more that 12" away and moves through enemy soldiers,
even though during movement they were forced out of the way, can they react at the end of movement
to get out of the way before suppression dice are rolled?

 

No. Suppression is rolled first. If the Vehicle rolls to suppress the unit and no HIT results are scored,

the unit may then React normally to the end of the Vehicle’s movement. 

 

I italicized and bolded the answer.

I saw a white box but the text was purple…stupid forum software.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 Ya, sorry about that. No joke intended.  When I tried to paste google chrome blocked a pop-up, and I messed it all up.  I dont care for the forum software either.  I am having a hard time with it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 I'm so happy I was wrong about this one, as it makes far more sense realistically to me the way Zach rules it. As far as starting outside 12" goes, yeah I totally missed that, lol. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...