The mechanism of kneeling

[mbm 0]

 So I am yet to understand this. there are several type of kneeling orders:

1) any phase - kneel your char to…

2) response - after [something] kneel your char to…

3) attack/defend - declare attacker/defender by kneeling the char

4) event - distraction kneels your char

5) passive - after the char is knelt….

 

maybe i forgot some other forms of char kneeling

anyway - after the char was knelt, every possible thing that requires kneel a character might happen?

 

example:

Lannister player declares Tywin as Intrigue attacker

player B declares Oldtown Advisor as defender (lets assume he has gold link, iron link, Valeryan steel link)

Now, the Lannister player plays the event: I am you writh small, thus gaining deadly.

What can be done, knelt-wise?

the Oldtown Advisor is knelt, so can he trigger his own response to cancel the event? is it possible to activate the two "kneel your char" chain attachment, plus the "when char is knelt" chain attachment?

 

 

[Underworld40k 51]

Ok, your example give some basic timing issues to deal with which we can walk through.

Tywin kneels to attack.

Oldtown advisor kneels to defend, at this point you can use the response on iron link to give a character +2 str and a military icon.

Lannister player plays your writ small; Tywin gains deadly.

IF the oldtown advisor was STANDING, he could be knelt to cancel the effect. He is not so you cannot pay the cost of his effect.

Any other player actions and then to challenge resolution.

In the same way that you cannot pay the cost to cancel the event you cannot use the gold and Valeryan links if the advisor is already knelt, and unless you have a effect to stand him you can only use 1 of those links a turn as they kneel him as part of the cards cost. Ie, kneel him with valeryan link to draw x cards, go to use gold link, he is already knelt so it cant trigger.

However, when he is knelt by the gold or valeryan link the response on steel link is viable as that looks at the character being knelt, it dosent check how he is knelt, only that he has BEEN knelt.

Hope that helps, a lot of the timing issues can be cleared up with the faq sat next to you and your opponent so you can work your way through it step by step. Its incredibly slow and frustrating the first few times but once you have it down things run much more smoothly.

Im sure that ive made a small mistake or two somewhere (probably with wording), more knowledgable folk will hopefully patch up any errors ive made,

[mbm 0]

 Thank you for the help,

I understand now the kneeling time in regarding to the response.

However, i still dont understand two things:

1) if i have two attachment that can be triggered by kneeling a character - can i trigger both of them by kneeling the char?

2) if i declare a character as an attacker/defender, thus he kneels, can i trigger the above mentioned triggers? (my guess is no, but worth asking).

[J_Roel 7]

 If kneeling the character is the cost of using the action, which you can tell by the use of the word "to", you cannot use the action if the character is already knelt. So, if you've already knelt your Oldtown Advisor as a defender, as in your example, you can't use his ability (which reads "kneel him to cancel the effects…"), and you can't use the links that require you to kneel him as a cost - Gold Link (kneel him to take X gold…) and Valyrian Steel Link (kneel him to draw…). You can, however, use any response that is a response to him kneeling, i.e. Iron Link (which specifically says "after he is knelt, choose one character…"). I have a few maesters and both the Copper Link and the Tin Link, and I kneel the maesters for other reasons (e.g. to use Dragon Lore or to use Citadel Custom) and often trigger the responses at the same time (if I have them attached, that is).

[Underworld40k 51]

 If you have 2 attachments, that require a character to kneel, one character cant fuel both at once. aGoT actions happen one at a time so you would trigger attachment A, pay its cost of kneeling a character, then your opponent would get an action oppertunity, then you would use attachment B and pay its cost by kneeling a character.

This is opposed to an effect that works from a character being knelt, one character being knelt could trigger a whole host of 'when knelt' responses. Using the chains as an example, if you had a copper, tin, black iron and iron link on a character and he is knelt then you can trigger all of them (Still in a linear fashion, so pick 1 and resolve then another etc)

The example you give for the link being triggered after kneeling to defend/attack is confusing me slightly because im probably reading it incorrectly. But if your asking if an attachment that requires a character to be knelt  can be paid for by declaring a charcter as attacking or defending then no, you cant. They are two seperate actions, independant of each other. However, like i said before, effects that respond to kneeling, unless otherwise specified, can be triggered from attacking/defending.

[J_Roel 7]

mbm said:

 Thank you for the help,

I understand now the kneeling time in regarding to the response.

However, i still dont understand two things:

1) if i have two attachment that can be triggered by kneeling a character - can i trigger both of them by kneeling the char?

2) if i declare a character as an attacker/defender, thus he kneels, can i trigger the above mentioned triggers? (my guess is no, but worth asking).

I see I was beaten to the punch on that first set of questions, maybe my answer will help to solidify the explanations, as Underworld's response was correct. As to the other questions:

mbm said:

1) if i have two attachment that can be triggered by kneeling a character - can i trigger both of them by kneeling the char?

No, you can only pay the cost of kneeling the character one time, unless you are able to stand him up again before your next action. The reason for this is that you must fully resolve the first action (the one that requires you to kneel him) before you can initiate a second action. By the time you get around to initiating the second action, he is already knelt, so you can't kneel him again or use and action that requires you to do so as the cost.

mbm said:

2) if i declare a character as an attacker/defender, thus he kneels, can i trigger the above mentioned triggers? (my guess is no, but worth asking).

This one was already addressed in the initial responses to your thread; kneeling your character as an attacker/defender is its own action, so you cannot then kneel them to pay a cost.

[J_Roel 7]

 Beaten to the punch again, ha

[Khudzlin 734]

It depends on the wording:

• If it goes "Kneel the char to …", kneeling the char is a cost, which means you have to make the char go from standing to kneeling to be allowed to do it.
• If it goes "After the char is knelt, …", kneeling the char is a play restriction (telling you when you are allowed to use the effect), so you can trigger it (or the game will do it for you if it is a passive effect) no matter how the char was knelt.

You can use one effect of the first type (provided the char is standing and can be knelt) and as many as you wish of the second type (provided the char does get knelt) for one char kneeling (this goes for any effect, not just kneeling).

Also beaten to the punch, but I'll leave it anyway.

[Underworld40k 51]

J_Roel said:

 Beaten to the punch again, ha

Sorry about that!

[mbm 0]

 Thank you lot for the input, now i understand the "cost" principal!

[J_Roel 7]

 lol, no worries, I just need to type faster and not be so anal about including card links

[sabrefox 0]

Resurrecting this thread for a related question.

Say I have a character with an influence value and an attachment on him that responds to the attached character being knelt.  Can I kneel him to spend the influence even if I have nothing with an influence cost to pay for?  I think not – it would be like throwing your gold into the gold pool and not marshaling anything – but figured I’d check anyway.

Also, say this character has Dragon Lore on him.  Can I kneel him and Dragon Lore even if I have no dragon to reduce the marshaling cost of?  I think so since the reduction “effect” will be triggered normally, but I just won’t be able to take advantage of it.
 

[Stryphe 0]

sabrefox said:

Resurrecting this thread for a related question.

Say I have a character with an influence value and an attachment on him that responds to the attached character being knelt.  Can I kneel him to spend the influence even if I have nothing with an influence cost to pay for?  I think not – it would be like throwing your gold into the gold pool and not marshaling anything – but figured I’d check anyway.

Also, say this character has Dragon Lore on him.  Can I kneel him and Dragon Lore even if I have no dragon to reduce the marshaling cost of?  I think so since the reduction “effect” will be triggered normally, but I just won’t be able to take advantage of it.
 

I believe you are correct on both.

[KristoffStark 1]

Stryphe said:

sabrefox said:

 

Resurrecting this thread for a related question.

Say I have a character with an influence value and an attachment on him that responds to the attached character being knelt.  Can I kneel him to spend the influence even if I have nothing with an influence cost to pay for?  I think not – it would be like throwing your gold into the gold pool and not marshaling anything – but figured I’d check anyway.

Also, say this character has Dragon Lore on him.  Can I kneel him and Dragon Lore even if I have no dragon to reduce the marshaling cost of?  I think so since the reduction “effect” will be triggered normally, but I just won’t be able to take advantage of it.
 

 

 

I believe you are correct on both.

Indeed he is.

Kneeling Influence is not a base mechanic of the game that you can perform, you must be prompted to do so by an effect like "Kneel 1 Influence to…" So you can't just randomly product influence.

Dragon Lore on the other hand is a specific ability that reduces the cost of your next dragon.  If you don't have a next dragon, the game doesn't care.