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RDJ.Papabear

Reanimate Familiar and hero status

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As we were in the midst of battle this weekend we came upon a question we we unsure how to resolve.

The Shadowdragon text says that a HERO adjacent to it need to roll a surge to hit.  Does the necromancer's Reanimate familiar count as a HERO?

Thanks!

 

RDJ.Papabear

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RDJ.Papabear said:

As we were in the midst of battle this weekend we came upon a question we we unsure how to resolve.

The Shadowdragon text says that a HERO adjacent to it need to roll a surge to hit.  Does the necromancer's Reanimate familiar count as a HERO?

Thanks!

 

RDJ.Papabear

We had this issue come up as well, and determined that while the Reanimate is treated as a "figure" it is not a "hero."

The rationale being, to me, that the Shadow Dragon uses shadows to confuse and disorient those adjacent to it, requiring the surge to hit.  The undead critter cannot be so disoriented, so it does not apply.

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 No need, here is the reanimate card:

DJ01_card-83-Reanimate.png

It's treated as a figure and not a hero. Considering that it's reanimated dead, I'm gonna go out on a ledge here and say its like other "undead" things and not fear death/shadows and other such "things" so there for it probably won't need to spend a surge as well. Now if I had an image of the Shadow Dragon card we could make a real decision here.

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Rules p. 18, Familiars Treated as Figures:

"Some familiars, such as the Reanimate, are treated as figures (as indicated by its Familiar card). …. They may be targeted and affected by monster attacks, hero abilities, and Overlord cards that target a hero."

Notice this list include monster attacks, and also includes hero abilities, but does not include monster abiliites, so by a strict reading the reanimate is not affected by dragons' Shadow, barghests' Howl, and the like.

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 Thanks for the clarification!  We came to the same conclusion but my youngest son(the overlord) felt differently.  I told him I would check the forum and see what others thought. 

Thanks for the help!  This is an awesome game.

Papabear

 

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I have to go with it having to role the surge based on the last line in the rules stating the OL can play cards against it as a hero.  But, some official clarification would be nice. In fact, FFG should revise the familiar rules all around soon, as there are many other questions floating about the forums regarding how the reanimate is to be played.

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 I too would read that as the familiar needing to roll a surge to be able to hit the shadow dragon

In general the emphasis is that reanimate and villagers/militia should be treated as heros in all applicable tests e.g. Castle daerion states that villagers pass 

All tests they are required to make and militiamen fail all tests so should be the same for the shadow dragon question too and need to get a surge

Besides the overlord needs all the help he/she can get 

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A similar question we had was can the Reanimate pick up the food and store it in the Fat Goblin quest?  Same thing, does it count as a hero or just a figure.  We ruled that it couldn't, but I could see it go either way.

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You are coming up with the same questions we have been stumbling with.  I would agree with the Reanimate not being able to pick up food. Again not a Hero.  But the not having to roll a surge to hit the Shadow Dragon seems to make it more powerful than the actual Heroes.

I also shot the question to FF Support to see what they would say.  I have not heard back yet but I will post their reply when they do.

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SpankeyCheeser said:

A similar question we had was can the Reanimate pick up the food and store it in the Fat Goblin quest?  Same thing, does it count as a hero or just a figure.  We ruled that it couldn't, but I could see it go either way.

Regardless of whether the reanimate counts as a hero or not, picking up or storing a crop requires an action, and the reanimate has no "open" actions that it can choose how to use - it just gets a move action and an attack action.

For the same reason, the reanimate cannot open or close doors, nor can it revive a knocked-out hero.

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Antistone said:

SpankeyCheeser said:

 

A similar question we had was can the Reanimate pick up the food and store it in the Fat Goblin quest?  Same thing, does it count as a hero or just a figure.  We ruled that it couldn't, but I could see it go either way.

 

 

Regardless of whether the reanimate counts as a hero or not, picking up or storing a crop requires an action, and the reanimate has no "open" actions that it can choose how to use - it just gets a move action and an attack action.

For the same reason, the reanimate cannot open or close doors, nor can it revive a knocked-out hero.

We struggled with whether a Reanimate could pick up the food or not as well.  I am not sure in the rules where it states that a reanimate only gets a move and attack action, but I may have missed it.  It would make sense, though.

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Paco62 said:

We struggled with whether a Reanimate could pick up the food or not as well.  I am not sure in the rules where it states that a reanimate only gets a move and attack action, but I may have missed it.  It would make sense, though.

The rules in the Familiars section says that familiars on the board can only take one move action on their turn, plus whatever other actions its card allows.  The Reanimate says it is allowed an attack per turn.

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exy said:

Paco62 said:

 

We struggled with whether a Reanimate could pick up the food or not as well.  I am not sure in the rules where it states that a reanimate only gets a move and attack action, but I may have missed it.  It would make sense, though.

 

 

The rules in the Familiars section says that familiars on the board can only take one move action on their turn, plus whatever other actions its card allows.  The Reanimate says it is allowed an attack per turn.

Missed that part when we were talking through it last night.  Thanks for the clarification. 

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Paco62 said:

exy said:

 

The rules in the Familiars section says that familiars on the board can only take one move action on their turn, plus whatever other actions its card allows.  The Reanimate says it is allowed an attack per turn.

 

 

Missed that part when we were talking through it last night.  Thanks for the clarification. 

No problem. We were allowing the Reanimate multiple moves and attacks for a few rounds before I happened to notice that.  (I think we were checking whether he could grab crops..)

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 Also can a Knight use Oath of Honor with the Reanimated as a target?,It says must be used on a hero. And in the rulebook it says:

They may be targeted and affected by monster attacks, hero abilities, and Overlord cards that target a hero.

But nothing about : hero abilities that target a hero.

 

Thank you=)

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They may be targeted and affected by monster attacks, hero abilities, and Overlord cards that target a hero.

But nothing about : hero abilities that target a hero.

 One could read that as all three items that target heroes. It was only stated once at the end to avoid redundancy.

It'd like to point out that a familiar that is treated like a figure, the reanimate in this case, fails any attribute tests and can be affected by conditions as stated on pg 18 in the rules under the "Familiars Treated As Figures" section.

Personally, I would rule that the Shadow ability of the shadow dragon would affect the reanimate or any familiar that is treated as a figure in this case.

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Malgamus said:

One could read that as all three items that target heroes. It was only stated once at the end to avoid redundancy.

It'd like to point out that a familiar that is treated like a figure, the reanimate in this case, fails any attribute tests and can be affected by conditions as stated on pg 18 in the rules under the "Familiars Treated As Figures" section.

Personally, I would rule that the Shadow ability of the shadow dragon would affect the reanimate or any familiar that is treated as a figure in this case.

 

I'm going to support this interpretation.  It makes the most sense and doesn't appear to leave any loose ends or wiggle room.  

But either way I think the game will be fair if you decide one way or the other:  Either it IS treated as a hero and can be targeted by <target hero> abilities from both GOOD and BAD sources, or it is NOT and it can not.  There are pros and cons for both sides of the conflict here, so pick one for now and stick with it until an official ruling.  My 2 cents.

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Rajja29 said:

What if anything happens to the reanimate if the necromancer is killed?


"When a hero or monster suffers damage equal to or greater than its Health, it is defeated. Unless specified differently in a given quest, when a monster is defeated, it is simply removed from the map and is no longer in play. When a hero is defeated, he is knocked out.

Unless revived by another hero, a knocked out hero may only perform one action on his next turn, and that action must be to stand back up …

A hero player may activate each familiar his hero controls once during his hero turn (either before or after resolving all of his hero’s actions). Activating a familiar does not require an action, but it may not interrupt any other action.

When a familiar is defeated, remove it from the map."

 

Heroes are never "killed".  The defeat of a hero does not automatically cause the defeat of their familiar(s) that I have seen.  I haven't found anything that suggests that a knocked out hero cannot activate the Reanimate before taking his one allowed action (Stand Up).  Activation is not classified as a skill or ability, AFAIK.

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Triu said:

I haven't found anything that suggests that a knocked out hero cannot activate the Reanimate before taking his one allowed action (Stand Up).  Activation is not classified as a skill or ability, AFAIK.

Replacing the hero token with the hero figure happens in the middle of the Stand Up action, so he can't do anything before his Stand Up action because he's not on the map. I hope we agree that the hero token cannot activate the reanimate…

Since flipping his Activation card facedown to indicate his turn is over is also part of the Stand Up action, the hero cannot activate the reanimate after his Stand Up either, since his turn is then over.

And since no action other than a move action may be interrupted, a hero cannot activate his reanimate in the middle of his Stand Up action either (on top of the fact that a reanimate must be activated either before or after all the hero's actions).

There is no window for any deed (including reanimate activation, using a heroic feat or even using free movement points from Okaluk & Rakash) when Standing Up.

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 All the rules say is the "hero player" activates the familiar before or after all of the hero's actions. Since the "hero player" is still there, even if the hero is not on the map, wouldn't it be okay to activate before doing all of the hero's actions? In this case all of the hero's actions consist of just the Stand Up action.

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Ispher said:

I hope we agree that the hero token cannot activate the reanimate…

 

No, I'm afraid we do not agree. The player is doing the activating, not the hero token. Activation is a game mechanic, not an ability (or deed) of the hero. The figures and tokens are other game mechanics that display the location and status of the hero. Just because they are knocked out (prone and unmoving), doesn't mean the hero (or player) is out of the game. The Overlord figure does not have to be on the map for monsters to be activated.

Ispher said:

Since flipping his Activation card facedown to indicate his turn is over is also part of the Stand Up action …

"… replaces his hero token with his hero figure, and then flips his Activation card facedown to indicate his turn is over (he may not perform an additional action)."

That one has some ambiguity. The parenthetical part was likely added as a clarification, and activating is specifically stated not to be an action. [bTW, there is nothing like this related to the Stun condition, that I’ve seen, preventing a second action.]

Ispher said:

And since no action other than a move action may be interrupted, a hero cannot activate his reanimate in the middle …

There is no window for any deed …

We do agree on the middle. The word "deed" does not appear anywhere in the rules that I saw. I think there are things that the hero can do within the game (skills, abilities, feats), and things that the player does (activation, moving figures, handling cards & tokens) that I refer to as game mechanics.
 

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Triu said:

Ispher said:

I hope we agree that the hero token cannot activate the reanimate…

 

 

No, I'm afraid we do not agree. The player is doing the activating, not the hero token. Activation is a game mechanic, not an ability (or deed) of the hero. The figures and tokens are other game mechanics that display the location and status of the hero. Just because they are knocked out (prone and unmoving), doesn't mean the hero (or player) is out of the game. The Overlord figure does not have to be on the map for monsters to be activated.

I have never seen someone who has passed out being able to give orders. It is just irrational to read rules in a way that throws rationality out of the window.

The Raise Dead skill is given to the hero, not to the hero player. Of course the hero player makes all decisions - cardboard or plastic can't - but they are supposed to be the hero's decisions. As in a story, you're supposed to play as if "Leoric did this", whereas in reality it is "The player controlling Leoric did this". "The passed out Leoric ordered his Reanimate to knock the last Goblin out of the way" simply doesn't sound right.

Triu said:

Ispher said:

Since flipping his Activation card facedown to indicate his turn is over is also part of the Stand Up action …

 

"… replaces his hero token with his hero figure, and then flips his Activation card facedown to indicate his turn is over (he may not perform an additional action)."

That one has some ambiguity. The parenthetical part was likely added as a clarification, and activating is specifically stated not to be an action. [bTW, there is nothing like this related to the Stun condition, that I’ve seen, preventing a second action.]

The rules say that the familiar is activated during a hero's turn. Whatever the parenthesis clarify (unless they clarified that "a familiar can still be activated"), I fail to see how it could be done after the hero's turn is over. I fail to see any ambiguity there.

Triu said:

Ispher said:

And since no action other than a move action may be interrupted, a hero cannot activate his reanimate in the middle …

 

There is no window for any deed …

 

We do agree on the middle. The word "deed" does not appear anywhere in the rules that I saw. I think there are things that the hero can do within the game (skills, abilities, feats), and things that the player does (activation, moving figures, handling cards & tokens) that I refer to as game mechanics.
 

Is your vocabulary limited to the words that appear in the rules? I used the word "deed" because it is the word that precisely expressed what I meant: a deed = something that is done. Some abilities activate under certain conditions, even when nothing is done, and those can work when Standing Up. An example for this would be Syndrael's ability to recover 2 fatigue if she did not move. When her Activation card is flipped over to signify her end of turn, the game checks if she has moved - she didn't - so she recovers 2 fatigue. It is not something she does, it is something that happens to her (because of something she didn't do, in this case). I could not have written "there is no window for any ability to work when Standing Up" because that would have been wrong. "There is no window for any deed when Standing Up", however, is accurate, because, from token to end of turn, Standing Up takes the whole turn.

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