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HappyDaze

Raven Guard and SM Implants

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Do the Raven Guard have all of the Space Marine Implants? First Founding indicates that they can not culture new Mucranoids and Betcher's Glands but notes that they fall back on old stock from the Mechanicus. I interpreted this to mean that Raven Guard characters have all of the implants and that the inability to culture more of these organs is a background element that will hamper the Chapter "someday in the future" - but I have another player that says one of the novels states that they lack function in both of these implants. Anyone know the whole story?

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While they might have them implanted, they certainly don't work.  That the process of adding them is simply part of the space  marine creation process, regardless of whether or not the implants function.

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jareddm said:

While they might have them implanted, they certainly don't work.  That the process of adding them is simply part of the space  marine creation process, regardless of whether or not the implants function.

Source?

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Pyrus said:

 According to Lexicanum the Mucranoid and Betcher's Gland are either not there, or non-functional.

It seems that the best Lexicanum could provide for that information was to point to Deliverance Lost. I'm currently reading that book, so I guess I should find my answer within it (or not).

Still, for the purposes of the Deathwatch RPG, I still contend that First Founding makes it so that Raven Guard Space Marines have those implants by relying on old stock drawn from the Adeptus Mechanicus.

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If you manage to find an answer to that question in Deliverance Lost it will be really vague and open to interpretation. The events of the book really only go over Corax's attempts to rebuild his legion and don't really go into the specifics of the implanted organs.

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DJSunhammer said:

If you manage to find an answer to that question in Deliverance Lost it will be really vague and open to interpretation. The events of the book really only go over Corax's attempts to rebuild his legion and don't really go into the specifics of the implanted organs.

Yet that appears to be the only source that Lexicanum references regarding the non-functional implants. Is there any other source out there that covers this, or is First Founding the definitive source?

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I found their write up in Index Astartes IV.  The exact quote on the subject is as follows:

"Further deterioration has meant that several of the unique organs of the Space Marines no longer function as they should among the Sons of Corax, while others are not as effective as they once were. For example, the zygote cultures required to grow the Mucranoid and Betcher's Gland do not exist within the Raven Guard and the Melanchromic Organ has a unique mutation that, over the years of service, causes the skin of the Space Marine to grow paler."

Having now read the specific entry in First Founding that talks about this…I'm actually a bit torn.  Like the Imperial Fists, the loss of two of their organs is a defining trait of the chapter, and has been for quite awhile.  That fact that First Founding specifically says, 

"Without recourse to these ancient archives of genetic material tithed in ages passed, the Chapter’s initiates would be without several elements of their  genetic inheritance."

is what bothers me, because in every previous instance, they were without those organs…

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jareddm said:

is what bothers me, because in every previous instance, they were without those organs…

So you would agree that, by the entry in First Founding, current members of the Raven Guard DO have functional Mucranoids and Betcher's Glands grown from Mechanicus stock?

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HappyDaze said:

 

jareddm said:

is what bothers me, because in every previous instance, they were without those organs…

 

So you would agree that, by the entry in First Founding, current members of the Raven Guard DO have functional Mucranoids and Betcher's Glands grown from Mechanicus stock?

 

 

I do agree that is what is written.  I also believe that the older material was vague enough for the First Founding explanation to be the case.  However, I wonder if this isn't in the spirit of the chapter, which have commonly been known as a chapter who lacked certain organs.  Now I'm now wondering if this means the Imperial Fists perform a similar procedure to have their betcher's gland and sus-an membrane implanted.

This also seems to imply that the loss of these organs is a recent development, whereas before it was believed that Corax's experiments during the heresy led to their failure.

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jareddm said:

Now I'm now wondering if this means the Imperial Fists perform a similar procedure to have their betcher's gland and sus-an membrane implanted.

I believe that the shaded area that gives the game information/mechanics for the Fists (and the Black Templars) notes that these organs are non-functional. No such game information/mechanics are present regarding the Raven Guard's implants.

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This is true, and if this is the case, then I'm perfectly okay with it.  It's just at odds with how many people previously understood the Raven Guard.

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DJSunhammer said:

If you manage to find an answer to that question in Deliverance Lost it will be really vague and open to interpretation. The events of the book really only go over Corax's attempts to rebuild his legion and don't really go into the specifics of the implanted organs.

I finished Deliverance Lost yesterday, and there is nothing in it to suggest that there are any flaws/shortcomings in the Raven Guard gene-seed except for the pigmentation changes that the Raven Guard are subject to. The Raptor-project had serious flaws after the tampering (but these flaws were not found in the original 500 Raptors), and after that time, the Raven Guard were forced to doing things the original way to which they said there were no shortcomings other than the time it takes (years as opposed to a few days/weeks for the Raptor-project).

So, I would have to say that Lexicanum really pulled Deliverance Lost as a source out of their ass.

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 There are two sources cited in the geneseed section. One for the 4th Edition Codex, the other from that novel. The novel citation is regarding the Alpha Legion's involvement with the experiment's failure.

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