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Pappystein

Encumberance issues with game in general

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Actually both plasma and melta guns are quite reasonably sized. Physically the plasma gun is shorter but taller(thicker?) than you standard lasgun, but not by much. Meltaguns are the pinnacle of Dark Age tech and as such are smaller and thinner than your basic lasgun and a roughly on par with a combat shotgun in size. There is no reason to expect them to weight ~40lbs. I keep looking at the weights and getting the feeling that whoever did this at FFG is American and doesn't understand the metric system.

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Darklordofbunnies said:

Actually both plasma and melta guns are quite reasonably sized. Physically the plasma gun is shorter but taller(thicker?) than you standard lasgun, but not by much. Meltaguns are the pinnacle of Dark Age tech and as such are smaller and thinner than your basic lasgun and a roughly on par with a combat shotgun in size. There is no reason to expect them to weight ~40lbs. I keep looking at the weights and getting the feeling that whoever did this at FFG is American and doesn't understand the metric system.

 

I agree 100% on this…. and as an American I know how easy it is to get lost in conversion factors. I do a LOT of work for a real world Naval Strategy game that is actually used by several countries, I have to convert often from English (US and Imperial systems) and Metric (original and modernized Units form)and sometimes across all four.  

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In the end the game we are here to test, Only War, is about Story, Physics, and Reality.

Story, does the game fit thematically with the Warhammer 40,000 universe?

Is what's described Physically possible

Is the game based in reality, IE you don't have a 500lb man running arround who can not carry 1 pound of weight or have a 50 pound man easily carring said 500lb man!

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In regards to weight of items, currently several are NOT physically possible unless they are made out of Lead, or worse Uranium.   Their physical size could not be made out of "normal" production materials and weigh as much as the books (and this goes back to Dark Heresy in some respects) want us to think they do.

Further, RE Plasma Rifle and Meltagun weights in particular, the Mass Movement Arm (the apparent weight of the weapon at the distance it is held off of center) is crazy bad. There is NO WAY an average HUMAN, let alone one in peek physical shape could carry such a weapon at the prescribed weight in such a manner as to be able to fire it.

Like I said in an earlier post.   Run around for a few minutes holding a 6 pound dumbell in one hand with that arm fully outstretched.  I bet very few of you could do it for more than 3 minutes.    Now Realize, that is about 1/5th the effective weight of the Plasma Rifle and Meltagun.   

 

I don't have a problem with a plasma rifle being heavier than a Lasrifle or Autogun.  I have a problem with a Plasma rifle being 3.5x heavier than a Lasrifle or Autogun!  a more reasonable weight would be 5kg for a plasma rifle and 5.5kg for a meltagun

Pappystein

 

 

 

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Pappystein said:

In the end the game we are here to test, Only War, is about Story, Physics, and Reality.

Other than 'story', I entirely disagree, purely because Warhammer 40k left real-life physics and 'reality' by the side of the road about 25 years ago when the first words for the setting were being written down.

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Ignore the "reality" part then, that doesn't mean we ignore the physics. The weights are borked even by the in game rules, stuff is simply to heavy for guardsmen to carry any kind of significant load. We're not asking for a S4 guardsmen to be able to haul 2.4 tons of stuff just a specialist weapon, a backup (lasgun mostly), some ammo, and his basic regimental kit. That's not really feasible RAW so we're petitioning to change that plain and simple, stop arguing against something that makes the game more playable.

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again: why no half the weight of everything carried in a rucksack? half the weight of worn armor as well. there is a difference between evenly distributing weight on you body and carrying it in your arms.

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I'm a bit busy right now so I can't sit here and write a long post, but there is one thing I'd like to point out.

The M240B GPMG weighs in around 30 pounds. It is a ***** to lug around and use, but it's very possible (I've seen a number of people do it) to aim and fire it from the shoulder. While I cna certainly understand the Plasma and Melta weapons being quite heavy (they are depected as being very large and bulky), I think 30 pounds of weapon really is near the upper limit of what is anywhere near realistic for one man to carry and use. IRL a 240 gunner has an AG to carry most of his spare ammo and barrels, a Plasma or Melta gunner is carrying all his own ammo.

So yes, while I think it's entirely within the realm of 40K for things to be big and heavy and bulky, there is a limit at some point where you just need to step back and say you've gone to far. I think a lot of gear probably needs it's weight reduced, and I think that would go a long way in help solving the whole carry weight issue in general.

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MILLANDSON said:

Other than 'story', I entirely disagree, purely because Warhammer 40k left real-life physics and 'reality' by the side of the road about 25 years ago when the first words for the setting were being written down.

While this is true (Eldar crap cannons, Melta =/= Plasma, "Photonic hydrogen", etc.) for the purpose of the game you need to reign the most egregious BS into the point where it is understandable. If your numbers are too far out there then there will be a point where you are unable to connect with the events in the game world anymore and you will lose people. It's like D&D 4e, it got so gamist and abstract that they lost about half the player base.

Similarly if you describe a bolt gun as … a bolt gun , then the system had better portray a weapon which has a good chance of killing an unarmoured man when you shoot him in the face. Likewise if I'm playing a normal human, then you cannot tell me I'm swinging aroung a 15lbs (7 kilo) pistol. Maybe a space marine could run around all day with a bowling ball at the end of his arm, but a normal human cannot.

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Andor said:

MILLANDSON said:

Other than 'story', I entirely disagree, purely because Warhammer 40k left real-life physics and 'reality' by the side of the road about 25 years ago when the first words for the setting were being written down.

 

While this is true (Eldar crap cannons, Melta =/= Plasma, "Photonic hydrogen", etc.) for the purpose of the game you need to reign the most egregious BS into the point where it is understandable. If your numbers are too far out there then there will be a point where you are unable to connect with the events in the game world anymore and you will lose people. It's like D&D 4e, it got so gamist and abstract that they lost about half the player base.

Similarly if you describe a bolt gun as … a bolt gun , then the system had better portray a weapon which has a good chance of killing an unarmoured man when you shoot him in the face. Likewise if I'm playing a normal human, then you cannot tell me I'm swinging aroung a 15lbs (7 kilo) pistol. Maybe a space marine could run around all day with a bowling ball at the end of his arm, but a normal human cannot.

^This. You can argue that it's a game all you want but if my guy has trouble moving small debris and yet can wield a 40lbs rifle without issue, I have to take issue with the internal consistency of the system. I want to point out the lifting table on page 14, a S3 guardsmen would have a serious issue lifting the **** gun and far exceeds his carry limit. This needs to be addressed rather quickly as most guns would give a weaker guardsmen serious movement penalties and even a solid S4 will be near his lifting limit to even pick up a missle launcher, and even at S5 he can't carry just the launcher without penalty.

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Darklordofbunnies said:

Andor said:

 

MILLANDSON said:

Other than 'story', I entirely disagree, purely because Warhammer 40k left real-life physics and 'reality' by the side of the road about 25 years ago when the first words for the setting were being written down.

 

While this is true (Eldar crap cannons, Melta =/= Plasma, "Photonic hydrogen", etc.) for the purpose of the game you need to reign the most egregious BS into the point where it is understandable. If your numbers are too far out there then there will be a point where you are unable to connect with the events in the game world anymore and you will lose people. It's like D&D 4e, it got so gamist and abstract that they lost about half the player base.

Similarly if you describe a bolt gun as … a bolt gun , then the system had better portray a weapon which has a good chance of killing an unarmoured man when you shoot him in the face. Likewise if I'm playing a normal human, then you cannot tell me I'm swinging aroung a 15lbs (7 kilo) pistol. Maybe a space marine could run around all day with a bowling ball at the end of his arm, but a normal human cannot.

 

 

^This. You can argue that it's a game all you want but if my guy has trouble moving small debris and yet can wield a 40lbs rifle without issue, I have to take issue with the internal consistency of the system. I want to point out the lifting table on page 14, a S3 guardsmen would have a serious issue lifting the **** gun and far exceeds his carry limit. This needs to be addressed rather quickly as most guns would give a weaker guardsmen serious movement penalties and even a solid S4 will be near his lifting limit to even pick up a missle launcher, and even at S5 he can't carry just the launcher without penalty.

don't forget to add the TB and the SB together.

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I didn't, I was just pointing out that anyone who had a penalty(Ratlings, some starting worlds, people with bad rolls) and didn't buff up can't carry some basic gear; I kind of reflexively use S. Extreme examples aside, 6 is an average Weight Bonus and it can't carry a missile launcher.

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He would be encumbered carrying a missile launcher and won't be able to carry more than a couple of missiles.  But he still can carry it (barely)

Comparing the weights to real weapon weights, some of these weapons are over heavy.  Even compared to WW2 weapons.

The Mortar is the right weight but the weight needs to be able to be broken down and carried seperately (baseplate, barrel, bipod)

The grenade launcher with 6 rounds is 3 times heavy than the M32 Grenade launcher.  12Kg compared to 4Kg.

WW2 3.5" Super Bazooka weighs 15 pounds (~7Kg); M-47 Dragon weighs 6.9Kg for the launch unit weight and another 10kg for the missile.

Compare that to 35Kg for a missile launcher is a bit high.

But as we pay 0.5Kg for missiles that is very light.

Maybe the missile launcher should be 15Kg and missiles be 5Kg.

You can't have it both ways, 0.5Kg is 20 times lighter.

 

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I'm allright with 40k gear being based off ww2 stats (advanced tech making them much more reliable then modern weapons though.) but HW need to be carried with the rest of standard issue kit which is why you have a loader to carry the ammo and someone else carrying the gun… I suppose weighty items might represent items that are especially bulky and impeed movement. after all, a large empty crate might weigh 10kg but you would fight far less well with one on your back then a backpack with 10kg weights.

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 I think what people are missing is that the heavy weapons are carried between TWO people - the player character and their buddy. This means each character is only carrying half of the weight of the heavy, and makes it far more inline with the tabletop Imperial Guard where 3 heavy weapons are fielded in a 6 man unit and somehow remain as mobile as a unit of standard guardsmen without any extra gear to slow them down.

The weights may have been made prohibitively high for just that reason - to stop heavies solo carrying their missile launchers and autocannons and still having their buddy lug around 10million rounds of ammo for it.
 

Not saying that it has been handled correctly even if this is the reasoning behind it, but it would appear that the intention is for heavy weapons to be 2-person portable and crewed.

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But then with two people carrying the weight you run into issues with Movement. In narrative time, yes, two people can carry a heavy weapon. In structured time, no. We had this come up in a game where the Psyker manifested Inspire; to benefit from the psychic ability PCs must stay within a certain range of the Psyker. Once the Psyker and Scum realized it would take them twice as long to return to the fray…well, their players looked to the others who were getting mauled and said "We'll be there in 6 Rounds." Gunner has an Init of 9, Loader has a 10, so loader Delays until gunner moves, but then he still moves BEFORE the gunner, and at a far slower rate, then the gunner moves and has to truncate the total distance he could move to stay with the loader. I admit one PC may still be slower (based on Ag Bonus), but moving separately is far preferable to moving in tandem, particularly in structured (Init steps, Turns, Rounds) time. Heavy weapons aren't intended to be CARRIED by two people, they're intended to be CREWED by two people.

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Alekzanter said:

But then with two people carrying the weight you run into issues with Movement. In narrative time, yes, two people can carry a heavy weapon. In structured time, no. We had this come up in a game where the Psyker manifested Inspire; to benefit from the psychic ability PCs must stay within a certain range of the Psyker. Once the Psyker and Scum realized it would take them twice as long to return to the fray…well, their players looked to the others who were getting mauled and said "We'll be there in 6 Rounds." Gunner has an Init of 9, Loader has a 10, so loader Delays until gunner moves, but then he still moves BEFORE the gunner, and at a far slower rate, then the gunner moves and has to truncate the total distance he could move to stay with the loader. I admit one PC may still be slower (based on Ag Bonus), but moving separately is far preferable to moving in tandem, particularly in structured (Init steps, Turns, Rounds) time. Heavy weapons aren't intended to be CARRIED by two people, they're intended to be CREWED by two people.

Note that comrades have the whole "move at exactly the same rate as their buddy" feature in the rules.

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KommissarK said:

Alekzanter said:

 

But then with two people carrying the weight you run into issues with Movement. In narrative time, yes, two people can carry a heavy weapon. In structured time, no. We had this come up in a game where the Psyker manifested Inspire; to benefit from the psychic ability PCs must stay within a certain range of the Psyker. Once the Psyker and Scum realized it would take them twice as long to return to the fray…well, their players looked to the others who were getting mauled and said "We'll be there in 6 Rounds." Gunner has an Init of 9, Loader has a 10, so loader Delays until gunner moves, but then he still moves BEFORE the gunner, and at a far slower rate, then the gunner moves and has to truncate the total distance he could move to stay with the loader. I admit one PC may still be slower (based on Ag Bonus), but moving separately is far preferable to moving in tandem, particularly in structured (Init steps, Turns, Rounds) time. Heavy weapons aren't intended to be CARRIED by two people, they're intended to be CREWED by two people.

 

 

Note that comrades have the whole "move at exactly the same rate as their buddy" feature in the rules.

Indeed. In fact for all intents and purposes the comrade is an extension of your player character and does exactly what you need them to do. Carrying 50% of your gear for you and moving in perfect sync with you is one such thing.

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Having a buddy haul half your crap is not a good excuse to make things weigh a ton. Plausible Scenarios: If your buddy dies then you lose half your crap, Commissars blam your sidekick and suddenly you get screwed into not being able to reliably fire your heavy gun. These are actual considerations that need to be addressed by making it possible for one guardsmen to carry his gear. I'm not saying it has to be comfy, but it has to be possible.

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If you look at how crew served weapons are carried; generally one person carries the gun, another carries the ammo.

Currently the gun is too heavy for one person to carry and ammo like missiles are super light.

If the weapon it self needs to be carried by more than person it should be able to be broken down.

The Mortar weighs as much as its real life equivalent, but a soldier did not carry it in one 40Kg lump.  But several 10+Kg lumps.  That base plate is heavy.

 

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